Support NeoGAF

[Ashok]

Yes, because pulp can't be art.

Some of these comments are hilariously snobby. Artless, not a real drama. Those that always thought Mad Men was the pinnacle achievement of Drama since the Sopranos, are coming out in full force, to rub their hands together and tell us Breaking Bad was not art. It's pretty amusing. But I find it bizarre that some fans are suddenly having this reaction. As if they didn't realize Breaking Bad was always pulp and stylized.

But I do wonder where we are at, when we say this isn't art. What the fuck.

Very well stated. If "Breaking Bad" isn't fine art, nothing is.

 

[jtb]

I think Breaking Bad did the pulp and the drama incredible. Was a fantastic mix. Which is why I think it's art and fantastic entertainment.

I think Breaking Bad relies far too heavily on plot contrivances (among other things, like beating us over the head with symbols) for it to be top-notch pulp. Or top-notch storytelling, of any kind. But it was very entertaining. And I definitely don't think art and entertainment are mutually exclusive.

In terms of the lack of realism, melodrama, twists and turns, contrived and convoluted plotting, slick style, colorful (yet fairly simple and easy-to-read/follow) characters, etc. the comparison I made is not the least bit inane.

Considered on any level BEYOND old pulp novels, comic books, etc. the show looks quite poor, indeed. The pleasures it has to offer are quite superficial.

And that's alright! But it ain't great art, is all I'm saying.

Edit: Pulp can be artistically accomplished. But BB wasn't exactly a Billy Wilder movie, let alone "The Killing of a Chinese Bookie" or "Mean Streets" or "Goodfellas" - works that really took the traits of old pulp fiction and turned them into titanic artistic achievement.

Definitely on board with this sentiment.

 

[Mononoke]

I love how Breaking Bad has become the new LOST. Absolutely insane how quickly people are turning on this, and coming out in droves to say it wasn't art, or was a poor show. My god.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I love how Breaking Bad has become the new LOST. Absolutely insane how quickly people are turning on this, and coming out in drove to say it wasn't art, or was a poor show. My god.

Three million viewers shy.

 

[jtb]

and if Mad Men sustains its current collapse, it might not be considered "art" either by the time its finale rolls around lol

 

[Ashok]

In terms of the lack of realism, melodrama, twists and turns, contrived and convoluted plotting, slick style, colorful (yet fairly simple and easy-to-read/follow) characters, etc. the comparison I made is not the least bit inane.

Considered on any level BEYOND old pulp novels, comic books, etc. the show looks quite poor, indeed. The pleasures it has to offer are quite superficial.

And that's alright! But it ain't great art, is all I'm saying.

Edit: Pulp can be artistically accomplished. But BB wasn't exactly a Billy Wilder movie, let alone "The Killing of a Chinese Bookie" or "Mean Streets" or "Goodfellas" - works that really took the traits of old pulp fiction and turned them into titanic artistic achievement.

This is officially the stupidest post I've ever read at NeoGAF.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Very well stated. If "Breaking Bad" isn't fine art, nothing is.

What is "fine art" to you?

Art is fundamentally about communication. BB is a very plotheavy show that communicates relatively little about the nature of achievement, ambition, etc. for how much time you spend with it.

Edit: And what is "stupid" about that post? Would it also be "stupid" for me to point out that Macbeth is a similar story that is about a billion times richer? Or would that be acceptable because Shakespeare is a "name", despite the fact that the works I mentioned are no less deep or artistically accomplished than his?

 

[luoapp]

White never smoked meth once in BB. I think it would be logic he wants to try before he dies, a taste of own medicine, so to speak, then he can die peacefully.

 

[CharminUltra]

Yes, because pulp can't be art.

Some of these comments are hilariously snobby. Artless, not a real drama. Those that always thought Mad Men was the pinnacle achievement of Drama since the Sopranos, are coming out in full force, to rub their hands together and tell us Breaking Bad was not art. It's pretty amusing. But I find it bizarre that some fans are suddenly having this reaction. As if they didn't realize Breaking Bad was always pulp and stylized.

But I do wonder where we are at, when we say this isn't art. What the fuck.

To be fair, the Mad Men and Boardwalk threads are dead and move pretty slowly even when new episodes are being aired, so really not a surprise that those fans are flocking here. Just wish they'd leave the bitterness at home

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

To be fair, the Mad Men and Boardwalk threads are dead and move pretty slowly even when new episodes are being aired, so really not a surprise that those fans are flocking here. Just wish they'd leave the bitterness at home

I've never watched either show. I watched BB because of the critical acclaim, stayed for the thrill ride. I stay away from TV generally because I find that people seem to conflate TV having "more" than movies with TV being "better" or "deeper" than movies, leading to alot of disappointment.

 

[Ashok]

What is "fine art" to you?

Art is fundamentally about communication. BB is a very plotheavy show that communicates relatively little about the nature of achievement, ambition, etc. for how much time you spend with it.

Edit: And what is "stupid" about that post? Would it also be "stupid" for me to point out that Macbeth is a similar story that is about a billion times richer? Or would that be acceptable because Shakespeare is a "name", despite the fact that the works I mentioned are no less deep or artistically accomplished than his?

Wow, could you seriously be any more pretentious? I'm not even going to bother responding to that hipster garbage.

 

[jtb]

I've never watched either show. I watched BB because of the critical acclaim, stayed for the thrill ride. I stay away from TV generally because I find that people seem to conflate TV having "more" than movies with TV being "better" or "deeper" than movies, leading to alot of disappointment.

preach

"novel-esque" my ass. if I want novel-esque storytelling, I'll read a novel.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

In terms of the lack of realism, melodrama, twists and turns, contrived and convoluted plotting, slick style, colorful (yet fairly simple and easy-to-read/follow) characters, etc. the comparison I made is not the least bit inane.

Ehh, many classic, all-time great novels have that stuff in them as well. 1984, Crime and Punishment, War & Peace, etc all have a good bit of ridiculous plot moments and the other factors you mentioned. Breaking Bad has more of those moments and is more fun, but I don't think those factors you list really define when something isn't art and is just cheap entertainment instead.

 

[mickcenary]

Not sure that I'm following you? Walt gave Jesse everything.

No, no. I mean that the confrontation and their final moments together in the show were not very emotional/impacting, etc. Felt a tad "meh", considering how important their relationship has been throughout the 5 seasons. That being said, season 5 pulled that relationship from the foreground considerably, so I wasn't too surprised.

 

[CharminUltra]

In terms of the lack of realism, melodrama, twists and turns, contrived and convoluted plotting, slick style, colorful (yet fairly simple and easy-to-read/follow) characters, etc. the comparison I made is not the least bit inane.

Considered on any level BEYOND old pulp novels, comic books, etc. the show looks quite poor, indeed. The pleasures it has to offer are quite superficial.

And that's alright! But it ain't great art, is all I'm saying.

Edit: Pulp can be artistically accomplished. But BB wasn't exactly a Billy Wilder movie, let alone "The Killing of a Chinese Bookie" or "Mean Streets" or "Goodfellas" - works that really took the traits of old pulp fiction and turned them into titanic artistic achievement.

Goodness, I literally could not write a more snobbish and pretentious post if I tried. I find it ironic and a little sad that it comes from someone who asserts comics and "old detective novels" cannot be art.

 

[strobogo]

I don't get the complaints about it not being dark enough or some bullshit. It's dark. No one got a happy ending.

Walt is dead
Jesse is mentally and physically scarred for life and probably would get picked up by police anyway
Skylar is mentally broken and has to life with being
Walt Jr. and Holly have to life with the fact that their father was a murder and drug king pin
Hank is dead and Marie is a widow who is estranged from her sister
Plenty of meth still out there
DEA didn't get to catch the bad guy
A whole community is destroyed
A whole lot of people are dead, both good and bad

 

[Sanjuro]

No, no. I mean that the confrontation and their final moments together in the show were not very emotional/impacting, etc. Felt a tad "meh", considering how important their relationship has been throughout the 5 seasons. That being said, season 5 pulled that relationship from the foreground considerably, so I wasn't too surprised.

Anything wordy would have felt forced and unnecessary. I can understand how people would want more, but this is one of the cases where little is more.

 

[CharminUltra]

TIL Sherlock Holmes, Lovecraft and V for Vendetta are not art. Merely cheap pulp entertainment!

 

[jtb]

Honestly, who cares what is or isn't "art." All I know is what is or isn't good storytelling. And I think Breaking Bad is far from flawless. And that's okay.

It's not like it was a complete and utter train wreck like Lost was.

 

[C4Lukins]

I guess I sum it up like this: For a show that spent entire seasons of establishing a path of reality, shit that just felt right and possible, to end it with a M60 stunt that just felt a tad unbelievable was a mistake.

There was a lot of silly well before the finale. I think some of you just want to be disappointed.

There are so many ridiculous moments in the show, but as viewers we accept them because this is not exactly a down to Earth series. So to analyze it at such a level, I wonder how you were able to enjoy so many other instances where the show took leaps for the sake of being entertaining.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Wow, could you seriously be any more pretentious? I'm not even going to bother responding to that hipster garbage.

I have been described as many things.

"Hipster" is not among them. And your use of "pretentious" in this context is meaningless. God forbid someone compare a works' accomplishments to other works'!



As for the Russian novels mentioned - I tend to think they're overrated, as well, though more for their general preachiness than their lack of realism - though that certainly doesn't help. However, The Brothers Karamazov, for example, has nothing as ridiculously silly as Walt waltzing into a meth distributors' office with explosive mercury, so the comparison's aptness only goes so far.

Edit: And when did I suggest that comics and old detective novels COULDN'T be art? Or even that they WEREN'T? I did say that, by and large, they weren't great art, which is true, and is the standard that has been invoked countless times throughout this thread. Quite fantastic when people don't really read or engage with what you're saying.

Whatever. Have a good night all.

 

[Lamel]

I don't get the complaints about it not being dark enough or some bullshit. It's dark. No one got a happy ending.

Walt is dead
Jesse is mentally and physically scarred for life and probably would get picked up by police anyway
Skylar is mentally broken and has to life with being
Walt Jr. and Holly have to life with the fact that their father was a murder and drug king pin
Hank is dead and Marie is a widow who is estranged from her sister
Plenty of meth still out there
DEA didn't get to catch the bad guy
A whole community is destroyed
A whole lot of people are dead, both good and bad

I think some people are just pissed that Walt was actually able to admit his mistakes in the last episode. They wanted him to die as arrogant and prideful as ever, but once he made some rather noble changes to his character, it pissed them off.

I personally think that is ridiculous. Everyone has been waiting for Walt to realize and try to fix his actions.

And also realize, people really aren't turning on the show, but people with strong criticism tend to come out of the bushes when a show ends. Keep in mind that the consensus feeling for this show is excellent.

 

[Batigol]

 

[Toa TAK]

I guess I sum it up like this: For a show that spent entire seasons of establishing a path of reality, shit that just felt right and possible, to end it with a M60 stunt that just felt a tad unbelievable was a mistake.

FringDeath.gif

Pretty much stole my answer.

Although, I will admit, Fring's death did not phase me in the slightest when it came to believability or my suspension of disbelief.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I think some people are just pissed that Walt was actually able to admit his mistakes in the last episode. They wanted him to die as arrogant and prideful as ever, but once he made some rather noble changes to his character, it pissed them off.

I personally think that is ridiculous. Everyone has been waiting for Walt to realize and try to fix his actions.

I think it's more that Walt was allowed to end everything on his own terms, when he probably shouldn't have been afforded that luxury.

 

[inm8num2]

I think some people are just pissed that Walt was actually able to admit his mistakes in the last episode. They wanted him to die as arrogant and prideful as ever, but once he made some rather noble changes to his character, it pissed them off.

I personally think that is ridiculous. Everyone has been waiting for Walt to realize and try to fix his actions.

Yup. The finale was a great conclusion - it covered the last part of Walt's arc and allowed him to make whatever mild amends he could. I lost sympathy for Walt during season 3 but I always figured that by the end he would realize he was an asshole.

"I did it for me."

He finally stopped lying to others and himself. That was critical.

 

[CharminUltra]

Edit: And when did I suggest that comics and old detective novels COULDN'T be art? Or even that they WEREN'T? I did say that, by and large, they weren't great art, which is true, and is the standard that has been invoked countless times throughout this thread.

Detective stories and comics can't be great art? wat

wat

 

[Mononoke]

I think it's more that Walt was allowed to end everything on his own terms, when he probably shouldn't have been afforded that luxury.

Because bad people don't ever get to end thing on their terms. Often bad people are bad so they can do things on their terms.

 

[jtb]

Detective stories and comics can't be great art? wat

wat

Can't be =/= aren't.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

John Cusack or Matthew Broderick were execs first choices to play Walter White.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I think it's more that Walt was allowed to end everything on his own terms, when he probably shouldn't have been afforded that luxury.

This was my main problem. As in season four, Walt had an outcome he desired, set up an in-depth Batman plan, and basically accomplished it. People have been saying that anything else would have been "dramatically unsatisfying", but I think there are other, more interesting, less predictable endings that exist out in the ether, somewhere.

Edit: Thank you jtb for actually reading what I wrote. I won't respond further on that particular subtopic and will return to the general BB discussion, but I appreciate it.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

This was my main problem. As in season four, Walt had an outcome he desired, set up an in-depth Batman plan, and basically accomplished it. People have been saying that anything else would have been "dramatically satisfying", but I think there are other, more interesting, less predictable endings that exist out in the ether, somewhere.

Pretty much. I would have loved to have seen Walt prepare and set up his perfect plan, only for it not to pan out, because in the end, he's just a man, not this enigmatic force of nature that wills the universe into not having nazis immediately kill him or the cops watching his wife's house turn a blind eye to him sneaking in. Everything was a little too convenient for the sake of allowing Walt's emotional loose ends to be tied up. It's cheap catharsis.

 

[IceCold]

Who gives a shit about art? The show is entertaining and that's all that matters.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

What I find interesting is how it didn't seem like a super bleak ending, but when you think about it, it kind of was. We were just following Walt and his perspective, so everything seemed good, whereas:

Lydia's daughter is now an orphan.
The coordinates probably weren't enough for a deal for Skyler.
Flynn has to deal with not having a dad anymore.
We don't know what happened to Jesse after he escaped.
We don't know if Flynn actually got the money.
etc.

 

[Lamel]

I think it's more that Walt was allowed to end everything on his own terms, when he probably shouldn't have been afforded that luxury.

He ended everything on his own terms, sure, but those terms were pretty abysmal by the end of it. Hated by his wife/son, lost his brother-in-law, lost anyone who ever cared about him, lost 70 million dollars, and died.

Fans had been waiting for Walt to own up to everything, and I believe that it was severely needed in the last episode, and they did it well.

If he had just died cold and alone in NH, there would have undoubtedly been a missing feeling of closure for the show.

 

[jtb]

Pretty much. I would have loved to have seen Walt prepare and set up his perfect plan, only for it not to pan out, because in the end, he's just a man, not this enigmatic force of nature that wills the universe into not having nazis immediately or the cops watching his wife's house turn a blind eye to him sneaking in. Everything was a little too convenient for the sake of allowing Walt's emotional loose ends to be tied up. It's cheap catharsis.

Exactly. He's just a man. Isn't that what Gilligan's beating us over the head with in the past 8 episodes anyways?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

And if Sculli and I are in accord, y'all know something's fucked up!

 

[inm8num2]

People spent 5 years enjoying the hell out of watching Walt essentially have things happen on his own terms time after time (with his cunning ingenuity and a dash of luck), but in the finale all of a sudden they expected things to go differently and for his last plan to backfire?

I'm not sure what that would have accomplished in a narrative sense.

 

[C4Lukins]

John Cusack or Matthew Broderick were execs first choices to play Walter White.

I was aware of this, but out of curiosity I would love to see what a Broderick Breaking Bad would have been like. I can imagine Cusack, but Broderick is so out there for that character.

 

[Toa TAK]

I was aware of this, but out of curiosity I would love to see what a Broderick Breaking Bad would have been like. I can imagine Cusack, but Broderick is so out there for that character.

Funny, as I was thinking the exact opposite.

 

[jtb]

People spent 5 years enjoying the hell out of watching Walt essentially have things happen on his own terms, with his cunning and a dash of luck, but in the finale all of a sudden they expected things to go differently and for his last plan to backfire?

I'm not sure what that would have accomplished in a narrative sense.

If everything went his way and happened on his own terms, Hank would never have found Gale's book. I think that's a clear turning point. Not to mention, the whole getting Hank killed part... Sometimes you just run out of luck. So he's still got the cunning, but everyone else (especially the Nazis who can't be reasoned with) has gotten smarter, know how to handle Walt.

 

[Lamel]

People spent 5 years enjoying the hell out of watching Walt essentially have things happen on his own terms time after time (with his cunning ingenuity and a dash of luck), but in the finale all of a sudden they expected things to go differently and for his last plan to backfire?

I'm not sure what that would have accomplished in a narrative sense.

This is what I am wondering too.

What about the finale makes Walt more than "just a man"? The rigged up machine gun...?

 

[BocoDragon]

Most of these "here's what should have happened" ideas are cryptic and weird.

Walt should have died in the cabin.
Walt should have been shot in the head.
Walt's plans should have gone awry and he accomplishes nothing.

Great storytelling guys. Bravo. :/

 

[C4Lukins]

Funny, as I was thinking the exact opposite.

I can see Cusack being intimidating, but Broderick no way. "Say my name."

 

[jtb]

Most of these "here's what should have happened" ideas are cryptic and weird.

Walt should have died in the cabin.
Walt should have been shot in the head accomplishing nothing.
Walt's plans should have gone awry and he accomplishes nothing.

Great storytelling guys. Bravo. :/

Why is allowing Walt to fail "accomplishing nothing"?

 

[Toa TAK]

I can see Cusack being intimidating, but Broderick no way. "Say my name."

That I agree with, I was thinking about the early stages of them being the high school chemistry teacher.

 

[CharminUltra]

Most of these "here's what should have happened" ideas are cryptic and weird.

Walt should have died in the cabin.
Walt should have been shot in the head.
Walt's plans should have gone awry and he accomplishes nothing.

Great storytelling guys. Bravo. :/

I noted this earlier. People unhappy with the BB finale are usually more than happy to share their "improved" version, and they tend to come up with the most bizarre endings this side of Dexter. It's amusing

 

[Courage]

Why is allowing Walt to fail "accomplishing nothing"?

Because there's ways to depict failure without being so anticlimactic.

 

[jtb]

Because there's ways to depict failure without being so anticlimactic.

Okay, have him fiddle around with the keys, and then they're just out of his grasp. basically what the episode did anyways. AND THEN he gets shot in the head. climactic!

 

[C4Lukins]

That I agree with, I was thinking about the early stages of them being the high school chemistry teacher.

Yeah he was awesome in Election, but I just cannot take an intimidating Broderick seriously.