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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016

Did you vote for the side that is going to win?


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The mere fact that you would ask shows how low power you are!!

powerposes.jpg


Personally, I wish they went with the last one.
The funny thing about this is that while it may have been true at one point before (in a stereotypical way) the mere fact that crap like this has been followed by those in power for so long it becomes a parody that instantly screams 'I'm a fake, privileged out of touch prick'. Same goes for the closed Fist, pointing thumb pose to seem less threatening which now looks so very fake.

Of course there are many people that do fall for this sort of Bullshit, just like the ridiculous 'leaving the Eu will mean more money for the nhs' statement when it's clearly a systematic approach to privatisation.
 
I've always wondered, does the actual voting record of the public ever become accessible for the general election or referendums like this?
All we will know is the total number of votes each way in each of the 300 or so constitutions.

This is why exit polls are also useful - not just to know the result a bit early but can be used to do the actual demographic analysis of what ages where voted what etc.
 

Pandy

Member
Is it possible that Cameron and co. actually are in favor of a Brexit and are only half-assing their efforts to stay in? They can get out of this clean, "we gave the people the chance to decide Its future", and walk out with a good dose of "admirable defeat".

They still have no opposition so it's clear it wouldn't hurt the party much.
I've raised the issue of 'Double-Agent Cameron' before, and I'm yet to see anything that convinces me he believes what he's saying. Problem is, that's true on almost any subject, so I may be projecting. In my eyes he's mostly been raising strawmen for his opponents to knock down, the whole 'new deal in the EU' bit pre-referendum was an embarrassment.

If he is doing it, I don't expect he thinks he'll get out clean, he'll take one for the team and retire from office... which he's planning to do either way.

That may also true of some of the others on the 'Remain' side, but I think most of them are genuine. i.e. I don't suspect a wider conspiracy, just a ploy between Cameron and his buddies on the 'Leave' side to control both sides of the argument.
 

Hasney

Member
Osbourne does want to stay in for sure. Ithink Cameron does too, but he just lacks any energy. That was the exact way he was during the last election, I was thinking he was so exhausted he didn't actually want to win it.
 
Well if we did deport them they are not just set free, they would go to prison in another country.

Some of it is down to money. Prisons cost money to run, criminals who can't be reformed and set free are a drain on the system and cost the country money to keep them locked up.

Prisons are becoming overcrowded as it is, so why should we be keeping other countries criminals and terrorists on top of our own.
How many terrorists does the UK have locked up? I'm having a hard time believing that is the reason your prisons are full.

You also can't randomly sent prisoners to another country and tell them to deal with it. You need to make an agreement with the government there for it. Nothing is stopping the UK from doing that.

So, it seems this was your foreign prison population for foreign countries over time.

Foreign_prisoners_UK_jails_v2.JPG


Daily Mail shows top countries, but can't link here. Poland on top. That is a problem. Ireland... doubt you'd stop people coming from there. Jamaica, Pakistan, Nigeria, Somalia, India, Albania, all not in the EU so nothing changing there.

Total prison population is around 85.000 according to Wikipedia. Foreign born is around 11.000 in 2014. Taking out the top countries from the EU (Poland, Ireland, Romania, Lithuania) brings that to around 8.000 still.

While it would be nice to save costs on it, it is not a gigantic number draining UK resources in a major way.
 
I never said that was the reason our prisons are full.
So the cost is the problem then? Still same question, how many terrorists without a British passport are you holding there? Because I doubt it is in the thousands.

The Guardian here says 130 convicted Islamist terrorist: http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ders-single-supermax-jail-islamist-terrorists

Now I'm going to guess most of those have UK citizenship and can not be sent anywhere. Just like we saw in recent attacks in France and Belgium, which are French and Belgium citizens who have radicalized, but were born there.

And as in my previous post, leaving the EU will not fix your issues here. There are just a few thousands EU citizens in your prisons it seems. Sure it costs money, but it is not a major problem compared to the non-EU citizens and British nationals which are there in larger numbers.

If I add the number of EU criminals from the top 10 EU countries in UK prisons of 2012 (what I could find quickly in Google) it comes to just under 3500. The lowest country in that top 10 has 87 people, so it won't be much more then that. Ireland has 676 people in your prisons from that number, which is something that won't change when leaving the EU I think.
 

Hasney

Member
plus, those prisoner deals are usually a 2 way street. We'd have to get some as well just because here is where they crawled out of a vagina.
 
So the cost is the problem then? Still same question, how many terrorists without a British passport are you holding there? Because I doubt it is in the thousands.

The Guardian here says 130 convicted Islamist terrorist: http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ders-single-supermax-jail-islamist-terrorists

Now I'm going to guess most of those have UK citizenship and can not be sent anywhere. Just like we saw in recent attacks in France and Belgium, which are French and Belgium citizens who have radicalized, but were born there.

And as in my previous post, leaving the EU will not fix your issues here. There are just a few thousands EU citizens in your prisons it seems. Sure it costs money, but it is not a major problem compared to the non-EU citizens and British nationals which are there in larger numbers.

If I add the number of EU criminals from the top 10 EU countries in UK prisons of 2012 (what I could find quickly in Google) it comes to just under 3500. The lowest country in that top 10 has 87 people, so it won't be much more then that. Ireland has 676 people in your prisons from that number, which is something that won't change when leaving the EU I think.

To be fair, it's not just an EU problem, I agree, that is a problem with our government (along with a lot a issues) and I will admit I don't know every fact, non of us do really, because both sides are telling us what they want us to hear and not all the facts are being made clear.

But there have been stories in the news of EU courts stopping us deporting known terrorists in the past, true or not, it does make you think, that these things could be happening when its in the news.

Even so, there is not just one single reason while I'm still voting to leave and I still think Britain doesn't need to be part of the EU, just like other countries are fine out of the EU Britain would be fine too.
 

Walshicus

Member
Even so, there is not just one single reason while I'm still voting to leave and I still think Britain doesn't need to be part of the EU, just like other countries are fine out of the EU Britain would be fine too.

Nobody is saying the world will end if we leave. They're saying the benefits of staying are far, far, *far* greater than the on-paper money transfers the Leavites are touting.

All these European countries technically outside the EU that are being held up as models? They basically *are* in the EU. They pay money in, they adopt the laws... but you know the only difference? They have no say in making those laws.


Ultimately though, it's about the kind of world you want to live in, I guess. For me Europe is a force for good, an expression of the desire for unity through diversity that fights against the urges that have kept this continent from it's own potential. It might not be perfect, but it's the best we have, and we should be striving to improve it rather than tear it down so a handful of people in this country can profit from the removal of the protections it offers us.


This isn't a debate about sovereignty, it's the culmination of a decades long plot to curtail worker and consumer rights.
 
To be fair, it's not just an EU problem, I agree, that is a problem with our government (along with a lot a issues) and I will admit I don't know every fact, non of us do really, because both sides are telling us what they want us to hear and not all the facts are being made clear.

But there have been stories in the news of EU courts stopping us deporting known terrorists in the past, true or not, it does make you think, that these things could be happening when its in the news.

Even so, there is not just one single reason while I'm still voting to leave and I still think Britain doesn't need to be part of the EU, just like other countries are fine out of the EU Britain would be fine too.
The bolded is a very strange thing to think. So you don't care if it is true? If someone tells lies, it could be happening because it is in the news? Yet you still have that as part of the reason to leave, even though you admit not knowing what is really going on.

The problem with deporting terror suspects seems to be that they are at risk of torture when sent to certain countries. This is something your own courts find also, so that won't change when leaving the EU, as per this case: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/07/judges-stop-theresa-may-deporting-terror-suspects/

Not saying that I agree with that. If someone commits a crime and are not a citizen, I think they should be deported if possible. But that is not something that leaving the EU will suddenly make possible or any easier.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
But there have been stories in the news of EU courts stopping us deporting known terrorists in the past, true or not, it does make you think, that these things could be happening when its in the news.

To the extent that these stories are true (and they are very much misreported in the detail), they are judgments of the European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to with the EU. It's to do with the Council of Europe, which is an entirely different thing that we've been a member of since 1954 and that this referendum is not about.
 
This isn't a debate about sovereignty, it's the culmination of a decades long plot to curtail worker and consumer rights.

Not quite sure what you are saying here, are you claiming that Brexit is a movement to leave Europe so some big nasty men can reduce worker and consumer rights ? Because if that is the case then how do you explain that those "big nasty men" are all supporting and wanting us to stay in Europe.
 

Moosichu

Member
Not quite sure what you are saying here, are you claiming that Brexit is a movement to leave Europe so some big nasty men can reduce worker and consumer rights ? Because if that is the case then how do you explain that those "big nasty men" are all supporting and wanting us to stay in Europe.

The "nasty men" are split on the EU.

Labour, Lib Dems, and Greens are overwhelmingly pro-EU.

I'm not saying it really matters, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Brexit was suddenly greeted with the destruction of worker and consumer rights.
 
The "nasty men" are split on the EU.

I wouldn't say that is true. There is massive overwhelming support in the business community for the UK to stay in the EU. There isn't a day that goes by where we don't hear of yet another financial behemoth claiming how we will all resort to eating our pets if we leave the EU.

So the very companies that would directly benefit from reduced worker and consumer rights are spending huge amounts of time, effort and money trying to convince us to stay in Europe.

It just doesn't fit that Brexit is an excuse for us to leave the EU so we can go back to the good old 17th century era. It is just another bullshit claim that gets thrown about in the hope it will stick with some and scare them into voting to stay.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
I wouldn't say that is true. There is massive overwhelming support in the business community for the UK to stay in the EU. There isn't a day that goes by where we don't hear of yet another financial behemoth claiming how we will all resort to eating our pets if we leave the EU.

So the very companies that would directly benefit from reduced worker and consumer rights are spending huge amounts of time, effort and money trying to convince us to stay in Europe.

It just doesn't fit that Brexit is an excuse for us to leave the EU so we can go back to the good old 17th century era. It is just another bullshit claim that gets thrown about in the hope it will stick with some and scare them into voting to stay.

It all depends on how much they would benefit from reducing rights vs. how much they would lose by not being able to freely trade with the EU and employ people from the EU.

Once they can't do the latter, don't think they won't implement the former to make up the difference.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
So the pro-Brexit vote now has a 3 point lead.

Woops.
 
My gut still tells me that the immigrant bashing will only go so far for the Brexit campaign, and Remain will push the potential negatives of breaking the status quo hard enough to swing it back in their favour, Scotland-style.

We'll see, though.
 

Chinner

Banned
Vote Leave everyone, once we have got rid of immigrants there will be no traffic and we'll be able to smoke in pubs again.
 

Hasney

Member
So the pro-Brexit vote now has a 3 point lead.

Woops.

While I was all ready to jump on blaming John Major for coming out in favour for remain, the data has been added to BBC's aggregation and remain leads by 2 points. Hilariously, both sides have lost support and its gone to 'I don't know', altough leave lost more.
 

oti

Banned
You know this may come as a shock to some but we were trading with Europe before we were in the EU. You don't need a union or an FTA to trade with another country you just need to produce something the other guy wants and they will trade with you for it.

Now sure having a fancy agreement or being in the union makes things easier and cheaper which is nice but it isn't essential to trade. The EU had very little to do with bringing or keeping the peace in Europe. Infact if anything the way the EU has behaved with countries like Greece it could be the opposite.

But what would that be?
Toffee?
 

Hasney

Member
It's this kind of thing that makes the pro-EU crowd look petty and desperate.

Seriously idiotic post.

If we leave the EU, will the new human rights acts stop jokes on the internet happening?

Because dude, I'm all the way willing to be a turncoat if this is on the table.
 

Chinner

Banned
It's this kind of thing that makes the pro-EU crowd look petty and desperate.

Seriously idiotic post.
If we vote leave all of the immigrants will stop using our Internet, and the Internet will be much faster. All of the jobs that the immigrants have taken will become available, and we can give the jobs back to the True British™.

Afterwards, we will take back Australia and Hong Kong, from those inverse immigrants who have taken it. Let's make Britain Great again. Do it for the kids.
 

Carl2291

Member
If we vote leave all of the immigrants will stop using our Internet, and the Internet will be much faster.
If we vote leave, I'm leaving the Internet. I don't think I could possibly handle the severe case of rib aching laughter that will come from your very witty jokes.
 

Chinner

Banned
If we vote leave, I'm leaving the Internet. I don't think I could possibly handle the severe case of rib aching laughter that will come from your very witty jokes.
Look mate, all I want is to smoke in the pub and see tits in the Sun. If we take in more immigrants the country will literally sink into the sea, it's just common sense.
 

Hasney

Member
If we vote leave, I'm leaving the Internet. I don't think I could possibly handle the severe case of rib aching laughter that will come from your very witty jokes.

Dammit, keep this information away from the Leave camp. They might get some traction with the promise of Carl2291 leaving the internet :Lol

ANYWHOO, onto serious things, it turns out that poll that had Leave ahead didn't actually have them ahead anyway. Can't remember who linked this site here, but it's great for polls analysis.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9705

Opinium have a new EU referendum poll in the Observer. The topline figures are REMAIN 43%, LEAVE 41%, Don’t know 14%… if you get the data from Opinium’s own site (the full tabs are here). If you read the reports of the poll on the Observer website however the topline figures have Leave three points ahead. What gives?

I’m not quite sure how the Observer ended up reporting the poll as it did, but the Opinium website is clear. Opinium have introduced a methodology change (incorporating some attitudinal weights) but have included what the figures would have been on their old methodology to allow people to see the change in the last fortnight. So their proper headline figures show a two point lead for Remain. However the methodology change improved Remain’s relative position by five points, so the poll actually reflects a significant move to leave since their poll a fortnight ago showing a four point lead for Remain. If the method had remained unchanged we’d be talking about a move from a four point remain lead to a three point leave lead; on top of the ICM and ORB polls last week that’s starting to look as if something may be afoot.

Looking in more detail at the methodology change, Opinium have added weights by people’s attitudes towards race and whether people identify as English, British or neither. These both correlate with how people will vote in the referendum and clearly do make a difference to the result. The difficulty comes with knowing what to weight them to – while there is reliable data from the British Electoral Study face to face poll, race in particular is an area where there is almost certain to be an interviewer effect (i.e. if there is a difference between answers in an online poll and a poll with an interviewer, you can’t be at all confident how much of the difference is sample and how much is interviewer efffect). That doesn’t mean you cannot or should not weight by it, most potential weights face obstacles of one sort or another, but it will be interesting to see how Opinium have dealt with the issue when they write more about it on Monday.

It also leaves us with an ever more varied picture in terms of polling. In the longer term this will be to the benefit of the industry – hopefully some polls of both modes will end up getting things about right, and other companies can learn from and adapt whatever works. Different companies will pioneer different innovations, the ones that fail will be abandoned and the ones that work copied. That said, in the shorter term it doesn’t really help us work out what the true picture is. That is, alas, the almost inevitable result of getting it wrong last year. The alternative (all the polls showing the same thing) would only be giving us false clarity, the picture would appear to be “clearer”… but that wouldn’t mean it wasn’t wrong.
 
Trade union members should vote to stay in the EU
As general secretaries who represent a large part of Britain’s trade union movement, we are writing to make our position clear and urge our collective membership, which reaches over 6 million people, to vote for Britain to remain in the European Union on 23 June.

After much debate and deliberation we believe that the social and cultural benefits of remaining in the EU far outweigh any advantages of leaving.

Throughout the 1980s and early 1990s the British trade union movement worked in solidarity with our European partners and fought hard to secure valuable working rights legislation at EU level. To this day these rights – including maternity and paternity rights, equal treatment for full-time, part-time and agency workers, and the right to paid leave – continue to underpin and protect working rights for British people.

If Britain leaves the EU, we are in no doubt these protections would be under great threat. Despite words to the contrary from figures like Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Gove, the Tories would negotiate our exit and, we believe, would negotiate away our rights. We simply do not trust this government if they are presented with an unrestricted, unchecked opportunity to attack our current working rights.

Europe needs to change – its political direction over the past few years has taken governments down a path of austerity and liberalisation – but we believe this direction is not irreversible, and will endeavour to work with our trade union colleagues to help shape a Europe with a renewed social agenda and a Europe that values investment in our public services.

The decision the British people must make on 23 June should not be taken lightly, but we urge our members to vote remain.

Len McCluskey Unite, Dave Prentis Unison, Tim Roache GMB, Manuel Cortes TSSA, John Smith Musicians’ Union, Dave Ward CWU, Matt Wrack FBU, John Hannett USDAW, Gerry Robinson Bectu, Roy Rickhuss Community
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/trade-union-members-should-vote-to-stay-in-the-eu
 

Hasney

Member

Lucreto

Member
I wonder who were going to blame when we unable to blame immigrants?

I'm guessing poor people.

They will move to saying there are too many people coming into from the commonwealth countries.

Vote Leave everyone, once we have got rid of immigrants there will be no traffic and we'll be able to smoke in pubs again.

UKIP are the only ones opposed the ban. They must represent that 3/10 who like to smoke in pubs. Are they really blaming Europe for the ban which Labour brought in?
 

Hasney

Member
Jesus, I didn't see that Farage had claimed that if we don't vote to leave the EU, there will be more sex attacks on woken by migrants. Fortunately, the rest of the Leave campaign slowly backed away from those comments.
 
I'm not really thrilled with the idea of making long term, constitutional decisions based upon the government of the day. The same was true with the Scottish Independence debate. This is - unlike the Scottish referendum - especially the case when one argument in favour of leaving the EU is that of increased sovereignty because it kinda makes it sound like they know that's not an argument they could win domestically (re: retaining those rights) so they'd rather punt it up a level to where the British voice is so relatively weak that this lack of mandate doesn't mean such laws can't exist.

In other news, my week in Spain is coming to an end and about an hour after landing our car was broken into and more or less everything stolen (including passports, phones, driving licenses, all my clothes, a laptop etc). The police were about as unhelpful as you would imagine the local police in Spain to be, whilst the British consulate were great. Ergo I'm changing my vote from Remain to Leave. We must escape these tyrants. I'm back in the UK tonight - pull up the drawbridge behind me!
 

Chinner

Banned
I'm not really thrilled with the idea of making long term, constitutional decisions based upon the government of the day. The same was true with the Scottish Independence debate. This is - unlike the Scottish referendum - especially the case when one argument in favour of leaving the EU is that of increased sovereignty because it kinda makes it sound like they know that's not an argument they could win domestically (re: retaining those rights) so they'd rather punt it up a level to where the British voice is so relatively weak that this lack of mandate doesn't mean such laws can't exist.

In other news, my week in Spain is coming to an end and about an hour after landing our car was broken into and more or less everything stolen (including passports, phones, driving licenses, all my clothes, a laptop etc). The police were about as unhelpful as you would imagine the local police in Spain to be, whilst the British consulate were great. Ergo I'm changing my vote from Remain to Leave. We must escape these tyrants. I'm back in the UK tonight - pull up the drawbridge behind me!

.... Should we nuke Spain?
 
Vote Leave everyone, once we have got rid of immigrants there will be no traffic and we'll be able to smoke in pubs again.
Joking aside I recently heard a customer where I work try to argue that smoking in pubs was part of our national heritage and that it makes no sense to ban it since 'the majority of people smoke anyway '.

It is fair to say it took some self restraint not to dispute this.
 
You can get them in El Corte Ingles and MediaMarkt for sure. I'd bet money on Fnac selling them too. Amazon with next-day postage is still a thing too.

Where were you looking?

Phone shops, for the most part. We weren't in a big city except for a brief few hours in Malaga to visit the consulate so our choices were sadly limited. My girlfriend got an iPhone charger no problem - that's what I'm typing this on right now - but my poor little Nexus 6p hasn't had charge for a week now. Booo.

Edit: by phone shops I mean vodaphone, Movistar, that weird one beginning with Y that's always embedded into Eroski and Carrefour etc
 
Phone shops, for the most part. We weren't in a big city except for a brief few hours in Malaga to visit the consulate so our choices were sadly limited. My girlfriend got an iPhone charger no problem - that's what I'm typing this on right now - but my poor little Nexus 6p hasn't had charge for a week now. Booo.

Edit: by phone shops I mean vodaphone, Movistar, that weird one beginning with Y that's always embedded into Eroski and Carrefour etc

Yoigo?

Amazon would still have been an option. Next-day costs money if you're not a Prime member, but you'd probably save that on the price at a phone shop.
 
Yoigo?

Amazon would still have been an option. Next-day costs money if you're not a Prime member, but you'd probably save that on the price at a phone shop.

Yup, you're right. We have some friends down here we could have got it delivered to - I kept holding out hope I'd find one in a shop until it was basically not worth ordering one. Oh well, I'll be reunited with my precious tonight... In the mean time, load the subs.
 
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