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[Huddy]

The BBC stating that the EU doesn't really know what kind of Brexit deal we are looking for as we've been quite vague to this point. It seems the reason for this is that the Conservatives haven't even discussed it in detail between themselves for fear of tearing the party apart and a real leadership challenge being ignited. May's like a beetle on her back kicking her legs out desperate to right herself.

Good job Conservatives, good job.

 

[oilvomer]

my reply was kind of lazy :/ i was dismissive because i found it an absolutely insane position that is detached from reality. didnt really do anything to convince him otherwise :/



He problem here is assuming that because they have foreign names it means they arent English

Spot on, what saddens we most is when I look at my son and his friends, none of them have traditional English names, in fact some of them have the most amazing names (except his friend from Vietnam who is called James) he has friends from Vietnam, Poland, Romania, and more, and I think, how fucking amazing, what a time to be a young kid, he gets to be friends with people from across the world in his school...

When I was at school the closet you got was a foreign exchange program... he does not realize how lucky he is (though birthday cards are a nightmare)

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Listening to LBC this morning (mistakes were made), the age old argument that migrants were sending all their money back to their family came up and I wanted to scream.

"We're letting them sends millions back sunny places like Portugal and Spain. Why isn't anyone talking about that or bringing it up in the trade deal. We should do something about it."

I'm pulling my hair out listening to this. Because this argument takes place in some made up reality. It fulls over the moment you attack it.

- What about the money they earn the places they work at? As with most businesses it should be much more than they are earning.

- What about rent, council tax or food? Do people honestly expect that none of these people are paying that? If they have anything left after all that, why can't they send that home.

- What about national insurance contributions? They are contributing to the UK. There was a caller who said he's been in the UK for 30 years and worked out over this time he's contributed about 1 million pounds in national insurance.

- What if they drive a car? All that money goes into the local economy.

Yes they might send some money back, but he vast majority of it is going to stay here.

Like all issues people have with migrants, it's either xenophobia or businesses breaking the law that's the real problem.

 

[Achire]

This is grossly disingenuous. The Prime Minister being appointed by the Monarch is a mere formality, and the Monarch has not appointed anyone other than the leader of the party with the support of the Commons in nearly a hundred and fifty years.

The EU's structure is much less democratic than that of the United Kingdom. Here's the United Kingdom's structure:

Voters directly elect the Parliament (the Legislature).
Voters elect Parliament, who elect the the Government (the Executive).

That's it.

Here's the EU's:

Voters elect National Governments who appoint National Ministers (one half of the Legislature)
Voters elect the European Parliament (the other half of the Legislature)
Voters elect National Governments who appoint National Ministers who appoint Commissioners (the Executive)

The chain is very clearly less direct. That's not even mentioning two more complicating points: firstly, that Commissioners are supposed to act independently of the Ministers who appoint them, so in fact Commissioners are not accountable to National Governments, and are ultimately not accountable to voters. This is particularly true given that functionally the European Parliament has fuck all influence over Commissioners. Secondly, that the European Union has a legislature which has functionally no power whatsoever to legislate.

I'm in favour of the European Union and Remain, but I can also quite clearly see that the EU's structure is a mess and could do with reform.

Uh The House of Lords? They're completely unelected, no?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The House of Lords is close to powerless, though. If the Council of Ministers had equivalent powers to the Lords, the fact they are appointed in the same manner as the Lords wouldn't be such an issue.

 

[Goodlife]

The House of Lords is close to powerless, though. If the Council of Ministers had equivalent powers to the Lords, the fact they are appointed in the same manner as the Lords wouldn't be such an issue.

It's really not

 

[oilvomer]

Listening to LBC this morning (mistakes were made), the age old argument that migrants were sending all their money back to their family came up and I wanted to scream.

"We're letting them sends millions back sunny places like Portugal and Spain. Why isn't anyone talking about that or bringing it up in the trade deal. We should do something about it."

I'm pulling my hair out listening to this. Because this argument takes place in some made up reality. It fulls over the moment you attack it.

- What about the money they earn the places they work at? As with most businesses it should be much more than they are earning.

- What about rent, council tax or food? Do people honestly expect that none of these people are paying that? If they have anything left after all that, why can't they send that home.

- What about national insurance contributions? They are contributing to the UK. There was a caller who said he's been in the UK for 30 years and worked out over this time he's contributed about 1 million pounds in national insurance.

- What if they drive a car? All that money goes into the local economy.

Yes they might send some money back, but he vast majority of it is going to stay here.

Like all issues people have with migrants, it's either xenophobia or businesses breaking the law that's the real problem.

This will cheer you up, my Brother in law works with an EU national, anyway one day they were at a pub and some guy was drunk and started on this EU guy, and this is how it went

"you come over here taking our jobs and women"

The guy leans over to him

" Just your Jobs" LMAO, nearly spat my drink when I heard that....true story that

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's really not

I mean, it is. Functionally speaking, all a loss in the HoL does is a) delay that bill and b) draw public attention to that bill. If the public do care, then b) is mimicking a democratic process, and if they don't care, then b) does nothing anyway. So the only time the HoL is really objectionable is when they stall out a bill into the election period. This doesn't come close to comparing to the powers held by the Council.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

This will cheer you up, my Brother in law works with an EU national, anyway one day they were at a pub and some guy was drunk and started on this EU guy, and this is how it went

"you come over here taking our jobs and women"

The guy leans over to him

" Just your Jobs" LMAO, nearly spat my drink when I heard that....true story that

Ha! I love it.

Also the classic "Coming over here taking our jobs!"

While also somehow "Living off benefits not working."

The sense, it does not make.

 

[TimmmV]

Hey, I was simply replying to a person saying it should be bannable for a person to state that people aren't being 100% truthful about their reasoning for wanting to leave.

So I dug up some posts showing that he doesn't like the amount of immigrants in his kids schools and his hospitals.

And that he thinks immigrants who are net contributors are "taking all the money".

And that his response to someone saying that the "UK will have Islamic no go zones because Islam is taking over the UK" is to say "you may laugh, but look at classroom demographics in london. Lots of muslims. And now theres a.muslim mayor! Numbers don't lie!".

Actually, let me just quote the convo:








Oh and of course, "sovereignty".

Yeah, avaya's original point was totally fair if you've ever seen RoyalFool in a Brexit thread before, he's got a history of this kind of thing. It's not really fair for Crab to jump straight to talk of bans when RoyalFool is 100% guilty of the things he is accused of, and people have repeatedly tried to reason with him about them, and he still hasn't changed any of his opinions

 

[hodgy100]

Spot on, what saddens we most is when I look at my son and his friends, none of them have traditional English names, in fact some of them have the most amazing names (except his friend from Vietnam who is called James) he has friends from Vietnam, Poland, Romania, and more, and I think, how fucking amazing, what a time to be a young kid, he gets to be friends with people from across the world in his school...

When I was at school the closet you got was a foreign exchange program... he does not realize how lucky he is (though birthday cards are a nightmare)

no kidding! I'm not that old (25) but even my school was mostly all English people with similar backgrounds, there 2 Asian families in the entire school. Now I work in games I meet people from all over the world I've made so many friends with different backgrounds and and I love it. Its why I took last years result so personally i guess. I felt like i was being told I cant make relationships with these people.

 

[Praetorpwj]

This will cheer you up, my Brother in law works with an EU national, anyway one day they were at a pub and some guy was drunk and started on this EU guy, and this is how it went

"you come over here taking our jobs and women"

The guy leans over to him

" Just your Jobs" LMAO, nearly spat my drink when I heard that....true story that

Not sure how being rude about British women is particularly amusing or charming, but I suppose you had to be there.

 

[Burai]

Thank you I will tell here, as I doubt she will be the only one who leaves as they don't understand things

To be clear, it hasn't been decided yet what will happen to EU citizens in the UK after brexit.

This is true, but I'd be willing to take May's letter at face value. It's the concession that the EU have been looking for and there are no caveats. I know someone further up the thread has questioned some of the language but that feels more a way of fending off any accusations that we'd be willing to allow illegal immigrants to stat from the right wingers.

I would argue - in addition to that one infographic being telling but maybe not the definitive summary of why people voted to leave - that all those words, even "sovereignty" itself, are basically euphemisms for immigration. You can't tell me that you've not seen similar phrases in xenophobic propaganda. The sovereignty argument is the favourite of a small set of Brexiters in the Tory party and the last refuge of people trying to make any sort of intellectually legitimate pro-Brexit argument. The proof will be in the pudding when services buckle, living standards fall and people don't go, "Oh, all the problems I had prior to the referendum are substantially worse, but that's fine, at least I don't have to vote for an MEP anymore."

I don't think you're really doing anyone any favours by boiling everything down to immigration. Mostly because there's been no need for "coded" language for a long time now. Not to mention that people will have a list of reasons why they voted the way they did, not just for a single issue. It was a binary choice, but people won't be voting for binary reasons.

For example, I didn't vote remain because I love the EU or wanted to stay in it at all costs. I voted remain because it was clear the political class in this country were incapable of getting us out without falling victim to the ideologists and causing us severe damage.

I think there's merit to the idea that we would be better suited to the Norway model than we are as full members. Sadly, it's not an idea the Brexiteers want to explore willingly.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I don't think you're really doing anyone any favours by boiling everything down to immigration.

I mean, I'm not, and I never meant to. The post you initially quoted was "Brexit was essentially a mandate for three things." What I'm saying is immigration was a primary, driving factor; sovereignty was not. This is what separates the people who voted leave and the people who are implementing that vote. Sovereignty is a pet peeve for a miniscule portion of leavers, many of whom are in the top rungs of the Conservative Party and putting it ahead of delivering things that the vast majority of the British public would care about, e.g.

I think there's merit to the idea that we would be better suited to the Norway model than we are as full members. Sadly, it's not an idea the Brexiteers want to explore willingly.

In essence, people like Jacob Rees Mogg who would rather no oversight from any EU institution at any point post-March 2019, which would be devastating in the truest sense of the word, but who either don't understand the issues at hand (let's not rule it out) and/or have a boner for sovereignty.

Also, I don't think this is true:

Mostly because there's been no need for "coded" language for a long time now.

Mostly because I think people would be aghast at what the uncoded version of "immigration is putting too much pressure on the economy, let's take back control" would look like.

 

[TrueBlue]

Not sure how being rude about British women is particularly amusing or charming, but I suppose you had to be there.

I'm a little confused how you came to that conclusion based on the information there.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I don't think you're really doing anyone any favours by boiling everything down to immigration. Mostly because there's been no need for "coded" language for a long time now. Not to mention that people will have a list of reasons why they voted the way they did, not just for a single issue. It was a binary choice, but people won't be voting for binary reasons.

For example, I didn't vote remain because I love the EU or wanted to stay in it at all costs. I voted remain because it was clear the political class in this country were incapable of getting us out without falling victim to the ideologists and causing us severe damage.

I think there's merit to the idea that we would be better suited to the Norway model than we are as full members. Sadly, it's not an idea the Brexiteers want to explore willingly.

You only have to look towards the bottom of the last page to see that the few times you can get someone to talk about why they wanted to leave here, it will be immigration or sovereignty.

And for those that cite sovereignty, you can look two months back in their post history and find them posting about how British kids with brown skin and/or foreign names are clogging up his kids schools and immigrants are killing the NHS and EU immigrants are somehow taking all the money out the system by being net contributors according to the numbers.

Then there's the fact that if anyone truly looks within themselves, you just know that the majority of leave voters literally had no fucking clue about 1% of what the EU is or does, apart from the immigration they've probably been complaining about.

If hardcore brexiteer DAVID DAVIS, didn't even k ow you can't do trade deals with individual EU companies or countries, then there's no way in fuck I will ever believe that most brexiteers and their family have even the slightest idea about the complications in the workings of EU governing and that they were voting to "simplify law making" and blah blah blah.

Sorry, but no.

Maybe 10% of leave voters maybe had genuine qualms about the EU (beyond immigration) that existed before the referendum was called.

The rest of them? Ask them what law they don't like. Ask them what an MEP is. Ask them if they knew the government already had powers to kick EU immigrants out if they didn't find jobs within a couple months. Ask them what parts of the country gets the most EU funding. Ask them fucking aaaaanything. Even now. Most won't know.

But you can guarantee they know a shit load about how much they don't like immigration.

 

[Stop It]

I'm just going to say this now, as of course we already know that stage 2 if the Brexit negotiation won't start until December now.

For all of the sabre rattling, the calls of paying €100 billion to leave, the calls for the UK to just walk away, it's all part of the fun and this will continue until the 11th hour.

Then, if anyone remembered how the Greek crisis was "resolved", the brinkmanship will continue in public with both sides blaming the other for not being fair until right at the end, everyone brings out the fudge.

And boy, will this be a fudge. There's going to be so much fudge that if it was exported, would create an export surplus the size of the Chinese economy.

Come March 2019 a final deal with be reached. Both sides will claim victory, nobody will actually know what actually changed. The hard Brexit camp will call Treason, the hard remain camp will ask what the point was and the soft Brexit camp will say "See, we are out of the EU now".

And then we will continue arguing about Europe for another decade while Farage promises to take us out of the European continent entirely, or something.

 

[KDR_11k]

So since the UK seems to be soooo upset about the strict sequencing of the talks... Why on earth did they agree to strict sequencing? That was on the negotiating table and the UK just said "fine". Now they're trying to get out of it.

 

[Dascu]

This is grossly disingenuous. The Prime Minister being appointed by the Monarch is a mere formality, and the Monarch has not appointed anyone other than the leader of the party with the support of the Commons in nearly a hundred and fifty years.

The EU's structure is much less democratic than that of the United Kingdom. Here's the United Kingdom's structure:

Voters directly elect the Parliament (the Legislature).
Voters elect Parliament, who elect the the Government (the Executive).

That's it.

Here's the EU's:

Voters elect National Governments who appoint National Ministers (one half of the Legislature)
Voters elect the European Parliament (the other half of the Legislature)
Voters elect National Governments who appoint National Ministers who appoint Commissioners (the Executive)

The chain is very clearly less direct. That's not even mentioning two more complicating points: firstly, that Commissioners are supposed to act independently of the Ministers who appoint them, so in fact Commissioners are not accountable to National Governments, and are ultimately not accountable to voters. This is particularly true given that functionally the European Parliament has fuck all influence over Commissioners. Secondly, that the European Union has a legislature which has functionally no power whatsoever to legislate.

I'm in favour of the European Union and Remain, but I can also quite clearly see that the EU's structure is a mess and could do with reform.

While Commissioners have a less direct tie with the voters than a national Minister has, the Commission's proposals can be completely overturned by the Legislature (and this is very much the case, there's plenty of Commission proposals which have been totally steered in different directions by the Parliament), plus the overall political direction is still governed by the elections. The leader of the Commission is also elected by the Parliament.

There would be pro's and con's to having all the Commissioners being elected by the Parliament rather than the Member States. Pro is more direct democracy, con is that this also means one political party choosing (i.e. in this case it would've all been EPP/center-right Commissioners) rather than reflecting the differences between countries (i.e. currently we have a mix of left and right-wing Commissioners, in line with the national election results).

Institutionally it's a bit complex, purposefully so to have that balance between direct democracy but also the diversity of the EU. Ultimately we have two lines of democratic safeguards (Member States/Council and Parliament) anyway.

 

[oti]

nobody will actually know what actually changed

That won't be the case because it can't be.

If, huge if, UK gets a Norway deal, we would definitely know that. Not being part of the decision process anymore while having to abide to EU decisions isn't something anyone can just sweep under the carpet.

If no deal, boooy will you know what changed. Everyone will.

Greece is not a good comparison here.

 

[hodgy100]

Not sure how being rude about British women is particularly amusing or charming, but I suppose you had to be there.

if anything the English guy was more disrespectful with "taking our women" saying it like women dont have self direction and that they belong to English men.

 

[Stop It]

That won't be the case because it can't be.

If, huge if, UK gets a Norway deal, we would definitely know that. Not being part of the decision process anymore while having to abide to EU decisions isn't something anyone can just sweep under the carpet.

If no deal, boooy will you know what changed. Everyone will.

Greece is not a good comparison here.

It won't be no deal, Greece was going to default and go back to the drachma all the way until they didn't.

As for the Norway option? People in the UK who have been believing the indoctrination of the right wing media already think that the EU is undemocratic and we have no say thanks to Germany and France domination of everything.

It isn't true of course but to the person on the street, the Norway option wouldn't really change anything. From a practical, political point of view, it'll be literally cutting our nose off to spite our face, but hey.

It'll be sold to the UK voters as a special deal better than the Norway option and to the EU as one that isn't. The reality will be hidden behind the layers of fudge.

I had to monitor the Greek crises for work purposes and the similarities are striking. Much more so than just the media responses which frankly are just noise.

 

[Jackpot]

If you look at birth rates, it's not that crazy. Heck, just look at London classroom demographics. Little surprise it's governed by a Muslim mayor really. Numbers don't lie.

Oh my.

 

[Nordicus]

Oh my.

Kinda screams :thinking: emoji doesn't it?

 

[Stop It]

This is grossly disingenuous. The Prime Minister being appointed by the Monarch is a mere formality, and the Monarch has not appointed anyone other than the leader of the party with the support of the Commons in nearly a hundred and fifty years.

The EU's structure is much less democratic than that of the United Kingdom. Here's the United Kingdom's structure:

Voters directly elect the Parliament (the Legislature).
Voters elect Parliament, who elect the the Government (the Executive).

That's it.

Here's the EU's:

Voters elect National Governments who appoint National Ministers (one half of the Legislature)
Voters elect the European Parliament (the other half of the Legislature)
Voters elect National Governments who appoint National Ministers who appoint Commissioners (the Executive)

The chain is very clearly less direct. That's not even mentioning two more complicating points: firstly, that Commissioners are supposed to act independently of the Ministers who appoint them, so in fact Commissioners are not accountable to National Governments, and are ultimately not accountable to voters. This is particularly true given that functionally the European Parliament has fuck all influence over Commissioners. Secondly, that the European Union has a legislature which has functionally no power whatsoever to legislate.

I'm in favour of the European Union and Remain, but I can also quite clearly see that the EU's structure is a mess and could do with reform.

Something something unelected upper house something something.

 

[mehrmantrout]

Corbyn is going to cement his leader in waiting position today

 

[Jezbollah]

Corbyn is going to cement his leader in waiting position today

Id much rather have May than Corbyn as PM. And I fucking hate May.

 

[oti]

It won't be no deal, Greece was going to default and go back to the drachma all the way until they didn't.

As for the Norway option? People in the UK who have been believing the indoctrination of the right wing media already think that the EU is undemocratic and we have no say thanks to Germany and France domination of everything.

It isn't true of course but to the person on the street, the Norway option wouldn't really change anything. From a practical, political point of view, it'll be literally cutting our nose off to spite our face, but hey.

It'll be sold to the UK voters as a special deal better than the Norway option and to the EU as one that isn't. The reality will be hidden behind the layers of fudge.

I had to monitor the Greek crises for work purposes and the similarities are striking. Much more so than just the media responses which frankly are just noise.

Greece went from "we don't want this" to "ok we'll live with it and even more". I don't think many people in Greece (speaking from relatives and friends and their freinds etc.) had any illusions about Greece's place in those "negotiations". The current Brexit situation to me seems more like a nation struggling to come to terms with their place in the world and the power they project. No matter what the result will be, that should change at least somewhat, right?

UK is also a giant economy and service-driven. This segment especially will take a huge hit if there's no deal. Even if there's a Norway deal it will come with some painful caveats I'd imagine.

Greece just moved on quickly once they realised there was no other choice while remaining in the Eurozone. Going back to the Drachma could've been an utterrly chaotic nightmare and even Tsipras I don't believe actuallly thought about doing that.

But I'm really intereted in hearing about your work-related experiences. My impressions were heavily influenced by family in Greece, so they're biased or inaccurate.

 

[RefigeKru]

Actually in the defense of Royal Fool, look at it like this.... you see services, education, hospitals etc keeling over...

The Government keeps telling you there is no more money, it is perfectly understandable that the average person would see being in the EU as causing these issues...

Hospitals is old people (we all know that) but services and schools are under mass pressure, and being told there is no more money, it is an easy jump to make, to blame it on EU people, because on a binary level, if you remove people = less demand...... now we all know on here that is simply does not work like that, but you have to see it from other peoples viewpoint, and when you do it is easy to see why people voted leave.

and to double down on that point to show why it is a bad idea just to attack leave voters, if Cameron had not called every UKIP voter a racist, none of this may of happened.... when you attack people they get defensive and it solidifies their opinion.

Tired of having to see the world from a bigot's perspective.

 

[TimmmV]

Something something unelected upper house something something.

Also an indirectly elected Executive branch, who basically has total control over the entire Legislative branch

Plus the Lords has the absolute nonsense of the Lords Spiritual and the remaining Hereditary peers

 

[Stop It]

Greece went from "we don't want this" to "ok we'll live with it and even more". I don't think many people in Greece (speaking from relatives and friends and their freinds etc.) had any illusions about Greece's place in those "negotiations". The current Brexit situation to me seems more like a nation struggling to come to terms with their place in the world and the power they project. No matter what the result will be, that should change at least somewhat, right?

UK is also a giant economy and service-driven. This segment especially will take a huge hit if there's no deal. Even if there's a Norway deal it will come with some painful caveats I'd imagine.

Greece just moved on quickly once they realised there was no other choice while remaining in the Eurozone. Going back to the Drachma could've been an utterrly chaotic nightmare and even Tsipras I don't believe actuallly thought about doing that.

But I'm really intereted in hearing about your work-related experiences. My impressions were heavily influenced by family in Greece, so they're biased or inaccurate.

Of course, the Greek Crises were in stages, so it depends on which part of it we are speaking of. There were stages where it legitimately looked like the "no deal" option was going to happen there.

Considering the time I had to track the situation, and presentations I made on the subject, it would be remiss of me to derail this thread with it, nor do I have the time today to make a post that would represent my thoughts on that situation but I can try to craft something this weekend and PM you if you're interested in a very bad interpretation of the crisis and how the negotiations there are actually a very good basis on how this may play out.

 

[amanset]

Ha! I love it.

Also the classic "Coming over here taking our jobs!"

While also somehow "Living off benefits not working."

The sense, it does not make.

 

[oti]

Of course, the Greek Crises were in stages, so it depends on which part of it we are speaking of. There were stages where it legitimately looked like the "no deal" option was going to happen there.

Considering the time I had to track the situation, and presentations I made on the subject, it would be remiss of me to derail this thread with it, nor do I have the time today to make a post that would represent my thoughts on that situation but I can try to craft something this weekend and PM you if you're interested in a very bad interpretation of the crisis and how the negotiations there are actually a very good basis on how this may play out.

I would love to read that.

I do remember a fallout between Merkel and Tsipras that only Tusk could save in the end. I just don't see another Tusk in those Brexit talks. May "fights" the EU while fighting her own party, who is made up by power hungry loons that want to stab her the moment they get the chance.

 

[keep]

Oh my.

See, this pisses me right off not just for the obvious RACIST ARGUMENT, but also the sheer stupidity of blaming the fucking EU for bringing over the MUSLIMS that are THREATENING the pure white British race.

Origins of Britain's Muslims

When did Muslims arrive in the UK?

The first large group of Muslims in Britain arrived about 300 years ago.
They were sailors recruited in India to work for the East India Company.
The next phase of Muslim immigration to Britain followed the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869.
Most of these immigrants came from Yemen.
The first mosque in Britain is believed to have been opened at 2 Glyn Rhondda Street, Cardiff, in 1860, although this is disputed.
The 1950s saw significant numbers of Muslims from the subcontinent arrive in the UK, prompted mainly by post-War labour shortages.
Others - such as Moroccan Muslims - have been present in significant numbers in England since the 1960s.
Algerian Muslims arrived more recently, as refugees and asylum seekers.
Many of Britain's Somalis fled violence in their homeland
Nigerian Muslims arrived in the 1950s and then again during the 1990s, mainly for economic reasons.
Relatively small numbers Egyptians and Saudi Arabians have been present in the UK for decades.
Those from Iraq and Afghanistan began arriving more recently, as a result of war and social breakdown.
Most of the UK's Muslims hail from Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds.
Historically, Muslim migrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh as well as a smaller number of Indian Muslims settled in areas where manufacturing and textiles provided the main employment.
These communities made their home in London, the West Midlands, north-west England and Yorkshire, with smaller settlements in Scotland and Wales.
The Somali Muslim community - 100,000-strong, according to the 2011 census - forms Britain's largest refugee population.
Somalis arrived in the 19th Century, heading to port cities such as Cardiff.
But it is only in recent years that significant numbers have been coming to the UK.
Somalis are among the worst-educated groups in the country.
Poverty and unemployment are rife.
Language remains an issue in terms of opportunities.
The Turkish Muslim community numbers some 66,500, two-thirds of which is made up of Cypriots.
Turkish-speaking Muslims have also come to Britain from the war-torn Balkans.
Most live in the London area.
Nigerian Muslims are believed to make up about 10% of the total Nigerian population in the UK, although precise figures are hard to come by.
That's about 16,000 people. The majority are Yorubas from southern Nigeria, together with some Hausas from the north.

ONE EU country clogging Britain with Muslims to the tune of 40k odd VS the 2,7 million Muslims that come from a majority of countries that used to belong to their much-loved British Empire.

If you want to leave some supra-national organisation to avoid Britain's Muslim 'problem', you may as well leave the fucking Commonwealth you numpties.

 

[Uzzy]

The EU withdrawal bill is being delayed yet again, with still no date being set for its return to the Commons for the committee stage.

Good thing there's no time pressure to get that bill sorted, I suppose.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

See, this pisses me right off not just for the obvious RACIST ARGUMENT, but also the sheer stupidity of blaming the fucking EU for bringing over the MUSLIMS that are THREATENING the pure white British race.

Origins of Britain's Muslims



ONE EU country clogging Britain with Muslims to the tune of 40k odd VS the 2,7 million Muslims that come from a majority of countries that used to belong to their much-loved British Empire.

If you want to leave some supra-national organisation to avoid Britain's Muslim 'problem', you may as well leave the fucking Commonwealth you numpties.

I'm with you bud. What pisses me off is that this is same the shit that Conservative MPs have been pushing for decades! Yet people still vote for them.

Just look at the infamous Ehoch Powell Speech and compare that to he sentiment used by many leavers today.

As time goes on, the proportion of this total who are immigrant descendants, those born in England, who arrived here by exactly the same route as the rest of us, will rapidly increase. Already by 1985 the native-born would constitute the majority. It is this fact which creates the extreme urgency of action now, of just that kind of action which is hardest for politicians to take, action where the difficulties lie in the present but the evils to be prevented or minimised lie several parliaments ahead.

The natural and rational first question with a nation confronted by such a prospect is to ask: "How can its dimensions be reduced?" Granted it be not wholly preventable, can it be limited, bearing in mind that numbers are of the essence: the significance and consequences of an alien element introduced into a country or population are profoundly different according to whether that element is 1 per cent or 10 per cent.

The answers to the simple and rational question are equally simple and rational: by stopping, or virtually stopping, further inflow, and by promoting the maximum outflow. Both answers are part of the official policy of the Conservative Party.

- Brexit version: We don't want to get rid of Migrants. We just want to limit the flow of them into the country.

I stress the words "for settlement." This has nothing to do with the entry of Commonwealth citizens, any more than of aliens, into this country, for the purposes of study or of improving their qualifications, like (for instance) the Commonwealth doctors who, to the advantage of their own countries, have enabled our hospital service to be expanded faster than would otherwise have been possible. They are not, and never have been, immigrants.

- Brexit version: We don't want to get rid of Migrants. We just want the really smart ones to come and then leave. As long as they pay our universities for the privilege of learning here that is.

The discrimination and the deprivation, the sense of alarm and of resentment, lies not with the immigrant population but with those among whom they have come and are still coming.

- Brexit version: The international equivalent of saying, you might be a migrant, but you're one of the good ones. It's the other ones that could come that are the problem.


Full Transcript Here. It's tragic to see this shit making a come back.

 

[TimmmV]

See, this pisses me right off not just for the obvious RACIST ARGUMENT, but also the sheer stupidity of blaming the fucking EU for bringing over the MUSLIMS that are THREATENING the pure white British race.

Origins of Britain's Muslims



ONE EU country clogging Britain with Muslims to the tune of 40k odd VS the 2,7 million Muslims that come from a majority of countries that used to belong to their much-loved British Empire.

If you want to leave some supra-national organisation to avoid Britain's Muslim 'problem', you may as well leave the fucking Commonwealth you numpties.

Careful there keep

If you keep pointing out the obvious racism and logical flaws in Leaver's arguments you push them into voting for leave, remember?

YOU DID THIS NOT THEM

 

[DavidDesu]

Depressingly hilarious that all the xenophobes emboldened by the narrow Brexit win, who were telling all those pesky EU migrants to “go home” the next day, won’t even be getting that part of Brexit, the main element which they all voted Leave for.


Hahaha, this is such a shambles please just let the Tories collapse, a new election and someone having the balls to promise, at the least another referendum, or ideally just calling the whole thing off.

No one with any remote shreds of sanity can possibly think Brexit won’t be a total disaster for the entire country and for every single citizen. The Leave margin was thin and highly likely the opposite result would happen if we all got a second chance. There’s little mandate to say it’s a done deal and “will of the people” anymore. Also will of the people seemingly means very little when our elected government can’t decide what that actually means.

 

[keep]

- Brexit version: The international equivalent of saying, you might be a migrant, but you're one of the good ones. It's the other ones that could come that are the problem.

I have been told this repeatedly (even by my mother-in-law!) and it invariably pisses me off even more. What constitutes a 'good one'?? One that 'doesn't steal'? What's 'stealing'? What would happen if a BRITISH CAR ran over me tomorrow and left me incapacitated for my whole life and dependant on BRITISH BENEFITS? Would I become a 'bad one'? It's so insulting and narrow minded.

 

[TimmmV]

Depressingly hilarious that all the xenophobes emboldened by the narrow Brexit win, who were telling all those pesky EU migrants to ”go home" the next day, won't even be getting that part of Brexit, the main element which they all voted Leave for.


Hahaha, this is such a shambles please just let the Tories collapse, a new election and someone having the balls to promise, at the least another referendum, or ideally just calling the whole thing off.

No one with any remote shreds of sanity can possibly think Brexit won't be a total disaster for the entire country and for every single citizen. The Leave margin was thin and highly likely the opposite result would happen if we all got a second chance. There's little mandate to say it's a done deal and ”will of the people" anymore. Also will of the people seemingly means very little when our elected government can't decide what that actually means.

The chaos of Brexit will bring a huge opportunity for people to make a lot of money. Unfortunately they need to be the people that have a lot of capital in the first place for that to be remotely possible, so it'll be like the 2008 recession again where a few people do extremely well out of it, while the vast majority of normal people suffer

The people in the Tory party that are really pushing Brexit know what they are doing

I have been told this repeatedly (even by my mother-in-law!) and it invariably pisses me off even more. What constitutes a 'good one'?? One that 'doesn't steal'? What's 'stealing'? What would happen if a BRITISH CAR ran over me tomorrow and left me incapacitated for my whole life and dependant on BRITISH BENEFITS? Would I become a 'bad one'? It's so insulting and narrow minded.

"One of the good ones" means "One I like personally, despite being demographically the same as people I would normally dislike/be racist about"

 

[Crispy75]

The chaos of Brexit will bring a huge opportunity for people to make a lot of money. Unfortunately they need to be the people that have a lot of capital in the first place for that to be remotely possible, so it'll be like the 2008 recession again where a few people do extremely well out of it, while the vast majority of normal people suffer

The people in the Tory party that are really pushing Brexit know what they are doing

"Disaster Capitalism"

http://edm.sw1a.net/article/articleview/2689307/Brexit: disaster capitalism

 

[Morat]

"Disaster Capitalism"

http://edm.sw1a.net/article/articleview/2689307/Brexit: disaster capitalism

Naomi Klein had a point

 

[Stop It]

I would love to read that.

I do remember a fallout between Merkel and Tsipras that only Tusk could save in the end. I just don't see another Tusk in those Brexit talks. May "fights" the EU while fighting her own party, who is made up by power hungry loons that want to stab her the moment they get the chance.

I'll do my best to make sense. I had to provide as non partisan analysis as I could but I'm only human.

We are now at the stage where Davis (emboldened by his Hard Brexit supporters) is pulling a Varoufakis in my view. We all know how that ended for him.

 

[RoyalFool]

Is he wrong?

I mean, there are definitely other issues influencing you other than sovereignty.

Wheee lunchtime

Oh of course there are other issues, and I still stand by my point that uncontrolled immigration puts too much strain on public services, and that is also a factor for me in voting for brexit.

I heard and somewhat understand the counter argument that I should focus these particular frustrations on the politicians, Who are not reinvesting the money immigrants pay into our economy back into these services. But I think the issue is more the speed at which demand is increasing, and controlled immigration would allow for controlled growth. So I'm not anti immigration, just want them to cap it to a reasonable level, especially with all the mass movement of folks happening at the moment

Anyhow, my concern is still about democracy and accountability.

Nobody ever asks what I'd want the EU to do, to change my mind. But I'd happily change my stance if the EU were properly audited, only created international laws regarding trade, and ruled out ever creating a new joint military.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Wheee lunchtime

Oh of course there are other issues, and I still stand by my point that uncontrolled immigration puts too much strain on public services, and that is also a factor for me in voting for brexit.

I heard and somewhat understand the counter argument that I should focus these particular frustrations on the politicians, Who are not reinvesting the money immigrants pay into our economy back into these services. But I think the issue is more the speed at which demand is increasing, and controlled immigration would allow for controlled growth. So I'm not anti immigration, just want them to cap it to a reasonable level, especially with all the mass movement of folks happening at the moment

Anyhow, my concern is still about democracy and accountability.

Nobody ever asks what I'd want the EU to do, to change my mind. But I'd happily change my stance if the EU were properly audited, only created international laws regarding trade, and ruled out ever creating a new joint military.

Who did you vote in the European Parliament elections?

 

[RoyalFool]

Who did you vote in the European Parliament elections?

UKIP, as I wanted a vote on brexit.

/Awaits GIFs

 

[Ravensmash]

UKIP, as I wanted a vote on brexit.

/Awaits GIFs

So you voted for people who proudly do absolutely nothing in Europe for your interests.

You can't vote for people like that and then complain that we have no say in what the EU does!

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

UKIP, as I wanted a vote on brexit.

/Awaits GIFs

rofl

 

[RoyalFool]

So you voted for people who proudly do absolutely nothing in Europe for your interests.

You can't vote for people like that and then complain that we have no say in what the EU does!

I did, for years, but they did fuck all about any of these problems. If we had half decent MEPs who actually reflected how 50÷ of us felt, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

UKIP, as I wanted a vote on brexit.

/Awaits GIFs

From the UKIP 2014 European Election manifesto.

We don't go there to make the EU better, more powerful, and
help it pass more laws.
We go there to find out what it's up to, and let you know. Some
of us spend a good deal of time there, unfortunately, making
sure we know what they're cooking up, creating an
‘Opposition' and voting against the EU's encroachment on our
democracy.
Others spend more time back here, spreading the word and
campaigning to get us out.
All UKIP MEPs, though, have one over-riding goal: to make
ourselves redundant, by getting Britain out, and returning to
the UK the power to govern ourselves.
We want our country back. Don't you?

How dare you pretend that the EU is undemocratic and vote in a democratic election for a party with that as their mission?