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California Ballot Propositions - Fall 2012 Election Edition

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I'll try to stay out of discussing 37 on it's merits or any lack thereof, but I will wade into the pool here just a bit...


There are costs around creating new packaging, it's something most every company already does on a regular basis, but in this case anybody that wants to do business in CA will have to develop a new package that complies with the regs (spend $ to get new artwork), get new packaging produced (spend $ for manufacturing and setup) and also write off any old packaging laying around that they couldn't use up before they legally have to change (spend $ to throw away stuff).

So If you sell a product like granola bars that have a printed box and printed pouches, that means more costs for you. A bottle of soy sauce is only one label, but a 24 count box of frozen burritos at 7-11 means the seller has to change both the carton and the wrappers- and for smaller companies that sell maybe a handful of units per week, the thought of having to change packaging on everything is sometimes daunting. They might even be sitting on a boatload of packaging because they bought it in larger quantities to save some money. "Mom and Pop's Handmade Kale Chips" probably didn't budget for validating their ingredient claims and updating all of their packs.

Not to mention that if you wanted to sell your food somewhere other than Cali, you'd potentially need a different label- so you now have to manage multiple packaging copies and distribution depending on where your product is sold.

Well, whats the timeline that prop calls for?

Most laws have a sunset period and such, that allow producers time to use existing stock and transition.

Changing the label requires no more than 10 minutes in photoshop by an intern, so the cost of that is effectively zero.

If the time is sufficient, then there should be zero additional cost of existing label stock can be used. Just print the new stock with the label.

And the out-of-state thing isnt an issue at all. You dont have to remove the label any more than you have to remove "CA CRV"


Speaking of, every time a state joins or changes their recycling redemption system...a label change! Oh no, you have to add "HI" to your list of states next to the 5 cents sign! .....it's never been an issue.

Same exact thing here.
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
yes on 30

no on 32

n/a on the rest... brilliant OP though - i just moved to socal from nyc and all this direct democracy is overwhelming!
 
LA Times has a good editorial making the case for voting yes on Prop 30.

Edit: also, for those saying spending is too high:
Critics argue that a tax increase is ill-timed, considering the fragile economy. It would make the state, whose income taxes are already among the highest in the nation, even less competitive, increasing the exodus of businesses and individuals. They also argue that the state's budget troubles stem from out-of-control spending, not a shortage of revenue. Even without Brown's tax increase, the state budget is expected to be larger in fiscal 2012-13 than the year before. Once the state starts selling bonds for high-speed rail, the total will go even higher.

Such criticism ignores the realities of inflation, population growth and economic expansion over the years, all of which put pressure on the budget. Even including the $40 billion collected in special state funds for everything from victims' restitution to wildlife preservation, the state budget this year amounts to less per resident than in 2010, 2000 or 1990, and will account for a smaller share of the economy than practically any year in the last three decades.

Sacramento can and should do a better job managing its money. And voters can certainly question the wisdom of building a high-speed rail line when the state's once-peerless education system is struggling (although they shouldn't forget that they green-lighted the project). But the rail project is a weak argument against Proposition 30; even if the initial bonds are sold in the coming year, their cost is expected to be a small fraction of the budget gap that would result if Proposition 30 were defeated.
 

cruets

Member
still waiting for them to execute richard ramirez. man i hate that guy. my one sole reason i want to keep the death penalty.
 

mollipen

Member
If companies want to convince consumers that GMO foods are bad for you, then it should their responsibility to present the scientific evidence.

What? No. That's not how life works, or at least, not how it should work. When you're doing something unnatural to food—genetically altering it beyond how it existed naturally—the burden of proof should be on you. You prove something is safe, and then put it out there—not put it out there and then be like, "Hey, show me it isn't okay to ingest this mysterious new substance!"

I am utterly baffled you'd make that argument, because in my mind, it goes against common-sense logic. I don't mean that to be an attack against you in any way, just an expression of my complete lack of ability to understand where you're coming from.
 
Kinda of topic, I registered to vote at the DMV months ago, but when I check this site to see if I was registered, it couldn't find me on the list. I hope I'll still be able to..

Ugh, never let the DMV do your voter registration / address change. They've never put my address changes through.
 

drspeedy

Member
Well, whats the timeline that prop calls for?

Most laws have a sunset period and such, that allow producers time to use existing stock and transition.

Changing the label requires no more than 10 minutes in photoshop by an intern, so the cost of that is effectively zero.

If the time is sufficient, then there should be zero additional cost of existing label stock can be used. Just print the new stock with the label.

And the out-of-state thing isnt an issue at all. You dont have to remove the label any more than you have to remove "CA CRV"


Speaking of, every time a state joins or changes their recycling redemption system...a label change! Oh no, you have to add "HI" to your list of states next to the 5 cents sign! .....it's never been an issue.

Same exact thing here.

37 doesn't define some of that outright, hence some of the manufacturing side worry regarding how to label if it passes. I'm still not advocating voting for or against it, that's a personal decision and best left for CaliGAF'ers to make, but the impacts to costs have some merit.

Most marketers would disagree about the "intern and photoshop" bit, really you can't just toss a badge or declaration on the box wherever it fits, there has to be some thought around placement and size and how you communicate to the consumer. So something like Hot Sauce bottles, for example, have very little real estate on the label because they're small- since there's no clear direction on the label requirements yet it's all a question as to how and where companies will have to place the GMO declaration. Box of Cheerios? No problem, it's huge, figure it out. Single serving of peanuts? Not so much.

Depending on the scale of your operation, the costs to update packaging can be quite substantial. You have to pay printers for setup and new print runs, for a product that sells in the millions it's multiple thousands of dollars per change, that's just how it is. And millions in sales doesn't mean it's always selling at a fantastic margin...

Regardless of how much companies decide to put into the design, the multi state problem is more complicated: anything labeled with the word "natural" "nature" or "words of similar importance" would not be able to put that word anywhere on the label in Cali. Nature Valley Granola bars- because they have nature in their name- need a new, separate label for California ONLY. I doubt they'd sign up to rebrand across the whole world. That's a massive change, and it wouldn't come cheap for anyone who's in that situation. Every product with "Nature" anywhere on the pack would have to remove it completely based on 37, unless they could make the timeframe to get certified.

And here's the last piece on potential costs, I swear. If a company decided to comply to keep their label clear, they need to certify that there's no commingling of any GM ingredients anywhere in the supply chain- meaning from farm to fork. If there's a single place where a GMO seed could have been accidentally dropped in with non-GMO seeds, (at the farm, the growers co-op, on a truck, in a silo, a farmer's market, milling, manufacturer, anywhere) then the GMO label has to be applied to the packaging. So to truly have a clean label, companies would have to maintain a separate supply chain for ingredients and manufacturing.

All this has to be certified by a 3rd party in order to validate compliance, which is why it's not more common today (USDA organic automatically qualifies, but that's the only fedral certification, the rest are private companies). The deadline for putting 3rd parties in place is July 2014, and there's going to be an epic backlog of requests as companies all race to sign up for 3rd party audits and approvals. Limited supply of 3rd parties + higher demand = cost go up. And really, if you're not already in the queue with some certifying body by Jan 1 2013, you're gonna be working to proactively label for declaring GMOs. Harsh reality is unless you already have a plan and contacts in place, you're at the mercy of the free market for finding a solution.


I am not asking GAF to vote against 37. I am not asking GAF to vote for 37. Only here to explain cost concerns. Personally, I can't wait to see this at a Federal level and make everyone comply on a level playing field- like USDA organic, which is not only a well defined and maintained program, but also plays well with other certifying bodies like the CCO in Canada.
 
37 doesn't define some of that outright, hence some of the manufacturing side worry regarding how to label if it passes. I'm still not advocating voting for or against it, that's a personal decision and best left for CaliGAF'ers to make, but the impacts to costs have some merit.

Most marketers would disagree about the "intern and photoshop" bit, really you can't just toss a badge or declaration on the box wherever it fits, there has to be some thought around placement and size and how you communicate to the consumer. So something like Hot Sauce bottles, for example, have very little real estate on the label because they're small- since there's no clear direction on the label requirements yet it's all a question as to how and where companies will have to place the GMO declaration. Box of Cheerios? No problem, it's huge, figure it out. Single serving of peanuts? Not so much.

Depending on the scale of your operation, the costs to update packaging can be quite substantial. You have to pay printers for setup and new print runs, for a product that sells in the millions it's multiple thousands of dollars per change, that's just how it is. And millions in sales doesn't mean it's always selling at a fantastic margin...

Regardless of how much companies decide to put into the design, the multi state problem is more complicated: anything labeled with the word "natural" "nature" or "words of similar importance" would not be able to put that word anywhere on the label in Cali. Nature Valley Granola bars- because they have nature in their name- need a new, separate label for California ONLY. I doubt they'd sign up to rebrand across the whole world. That's a massive change, and it wouldn't come cheap for anyone who's in that situation. Every product with "Nature" anywhere on the pack would have to remove it completely based on 37, unless they could make the timeframe to get certified.

And here's the last piece on potential costs, I swear. If a company decided to comply to keep their label clear, they need to certify that there's no commingling of any GM ingredients anywhere in the supply chain- meaning from farm to fork. If there's a single place where a GMO seed could have been accidentally dropped in with non-GMO seeds, (at the farm, the growers co-op, on a truck, in a silo, a farmer's market, milling, manufacturer, anywhere) then the GMO label has to be applied to the packaging. So to truly have a clean label, companies would have to maintain a separate supply chain for ingredients and manufacturing.

All this has to be certified by a 3rd party in order to validate compliance, which is why it's not more common today (USDA organic automatically qualifies, but that's the only fedral certification, the rest are private companies). The deadline for putting 3rd parties in place is July 2014, and there's going to be an epic backlog of requests as companies all race to sign up for 3rd party audits and approvals. Limited supply of 3rd parties + higher demand = cost go up. And really, if you're not already in the queue with some certifying body by Jan 1 2013, you're gonna be working to proactively label for declaring GMOs. Harsh reality is unless you already have a plan and contacts in place, you're at the mercy of the free market for finding a solution.


I am not asking GAF to vote against 37. I am not asking GAF to vote for 37. Only here to explain cost concerns. Personally, I can't wait to see this at a Federal level and make everyone comply on a level playing field- like USDA organic, which is not only a well defined and maintained program, but also plays well with other certifying bodies like the CCO in Canada.

I appreciate the extra information, some of that I didnt consider.

However, what actually pushed me to support the law was the part where "natural" must mean "natural". I just hope it means products like Sprite can no longer say 100% natural ingredients when theres nothing natural about any of it.
 
Just came back from voting and wanted to thank the OP and other thread contributors. Thanks to all of you, your posts and your resources I walked in more informed and confident in my votes than ever before. Thank you.
 

overcast

Member
Fuck. 30 didn't pass :[ Less money for schools? CC is going to be hell next semester.

So, the death penalty stays too? Dammit Calif.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
I'm seriously puzzled by the disparity between Props 34 and 36. People are eager for lighter and/or more flexible sentencing, but still want to waste shitloads of money to maybe, possibly someday execute the occasional person.
 

alphaNoid

Banned
Super happy that so far nothing increasing taxes is passing. My presidential vote may get drowned out in this blue state but I'll be damned if my local vote does. I went out to vote mostly for the Props since I knew the big vote wouldn't matter much.
 

mollipen

Member
34 not passing, and 35 not passing, is disgusting to me personally. Ugh.

And I thought 37 was going to pass... kind of sad to see that it isn't. But hey, keep supporting corporations like Monsanto and Dow!

Hoping things change throughout the night! Also thought Measure B is ridiculous, but I don't particularly feel passionate about it.
 

Karakand

Member
How something like prop 30 didn't pass?

Really can't think of the last time the electorate bailed out the legislature by agreeing to tax increases at the ballot box. I'm surprised it's even as close as it is.

If the legislature wasn't crippled with minority rule wrt taxation there wouldn't have even been the need to go through this in the first place.
 

Al-ibn Kermit

Junior Member
What? No. That's not how life works, or at least, not how it should work. When you're doing something unnatural to food—genetically altering it beyond how it existed naturally—the burden of proof should be on you. You prove something is safe, and then put it out there—not put it out there and then be like, "Hey, show me it isn't okay to ingest this mysterious new substance!"

I am utterly baffled you'd make that argument, because in my mind, it goes against common-sense logic. I don't mean that to be an attack against you in any way, just an expression of my complete lack of ability to understand where you're coming from.

Yes, they argue that to the regulatory agencies like the FDA, USDA, and EPA. You can't realistically fit the arguments about how safe the science is based on years of peer-reviewed studies on that little label/package.

The only thing a label SHOULD tell you imo is whether the government has found any negative health effects of a particular food. Trying to make an argument on such a tiny medium makes no sense to me. It will only make an uninformed consumer more confused.


So you must be opposed to mandatory (non-GMO) ingredient labels?

Well isn't that just because of allergies? Maybe also people who are vegetarian for religions/moral reasons.
 

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
Yes California, instead of spending more tax money on education, let's spend it on death penalty instead, justice demand blood!

IMO a country can never save money on education, you will just end up spend it on feeding them in jail later on.
 

Azar

Member
I'm still holding out hope for Prop 30. It's not separated by many votes at this point. But it's probably not going to pass. That sucks.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Yes California, instead of spending more tax money on education, let's spend it on death penalty instead, justice demand blood!

IMO a country can never save money on education, you will just end up spend it on feeding them in jail later on.

Yeah... *sad*

So stupid to keep burning money on death row.
 
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