More_Badass
Member
1) It's not elective
2) Clearly as someone emotionally affected by the person's crime, I probably wouldnt. But what I believed in that situation and what is morally right are two completely different things.
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California Funds First Prisoner Sex-Reassignment Surgery and Move to Women's Prison
- Thread starter Horse Armour
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2) Clearly as someone emotionally affected by the person's crime, I probably wouldnt. But what I believed in that situation and what is morally right are two completely different things.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Why is elective where you draw the line? Hip replacements are elective. People need to be able to walk without being in pain. It is in our best interest to have them continue to function.
Constant pain is not acceptable for even our inmates. It isn't acceptable for our fucking dogs.
If someone killed a person I loved, I'd probably want them to be tortured to death. But that's not my call to make. We have a justice system that works objectively - in theory - to remove base, personal motivations from the discussion.
It's still an elective procedure for an INMATE OF THE STATE. AN INMATE. They can get the surgery when they get out of prison, oh wait....
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I'd want them dead. Real question though is how in blue blazes does this surgery affect my life? Serious question.
Butterfly Witch
Member
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
It's like people are unaware of the 8th Amendment.
If someone is suffering from depression, dysphoria and therefore experiencing tremendous amount of psychological pain then it's cruel to not treat said person and let them sit and rot in torture.
Trans rights are human rights.
HazySaiyan
Banned
Or why not pay for both? It's a necessary medical procedure that shouldn't be denied to anyone.
Coffee Dog
Banned
"They'd live" is below our minimum standard of care. It is preferred that they remain functioning, ergo to keep them functioning this treatment is provided.
It's not so simple as "give me this or i'll kill myself". Remember, a doctor has worked with this prisoner for quite some time.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Might as well just throw prisoners into a fucking dungeon.
They would still live, right?
Coffee Dog
Banned
Would you object to a hip replacement that allowed a prisoner to be freed of constant pains and able to walk again?
Surely, as someone who is against torture, you'd see why we need to not have our prisoners in constant pain.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
'Elective' isn't the right word. I would use 'medically necessary' (or not medically necessary depending on your opinion)
Insurance companies consider it medically necessary only sometimes if and when certain conditions are met.
I would hope in this situation, where it is a convicted murderer and taxpayer money is being used - those conditions would be even more strict and I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that.
Insurance companies consider it medically necessary only sometimes if and when certain conditions are met.
I would hope in this situation, where it is a convicted murderer and taxpayer money is being used - those conditions would be even more strict and I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Taxpayer money was used. A taxpayer having an opinion on what taxes are spent on is normal.
poppedcollar69
Member
Guys, I know a way that will make you feel better about it
This person committed murder in cold blood and you know what they're doing to them in prison? They're gonna cut their dick off. That'll show them
This person committed murder in cold blood and you know what they're doing to them in prison? They're gonna cut their dick off. That'll show them
Prisoner get treated better than homeless people because we as a society decided they do. A civilized society should take care of it prisoner- including all necessary medical care. Transition surgery is necessary.
If free citizens want the same access to medical, we have to give us that right through laws and taxes.
Thank you, you are correct, Medically necessary is what I'm trying to say, poor choice of words on my behalf.
Being in prison prison is enough to cause a lot of mental anguish and undoubtedly makes a lot of people want to kill themselves. How come the very act of imprisoning them isn't torture, but allowing them to continue being imprisoned in the wrong body is?
It's a sensitive issue and I know we have trans folk on the forum. I don't want to sound like I'm insensitive to trans people but I'm a little surprised by the reaction to this.
If being in the wrong body constitutes torture, how come the state doesn't do anything about all of the people being tortured outside of prison? Law abiding people?
I would actually be in favor of that, by the way. I'm just not in favor of giving it to murderers first.
I won't argue against someone who wishes to get surgery that is a FREE citizen. I draw the line when it is a inmate that is serving time for capital murder. In another state we wouldn't be having this discussion because they would have been sentenced to death instead.
Blame your government not the prisoner.
Coffee Dog
Banned
You can't get those people the operations they need by being cruel to a lone prisoner in California.
Butterfly Witch
Member
Prisoners and criminals are people too and they are still human.
The state or federal government rescinds their freedom because of their actions and removes their agency. In doing so they become the state/federal government's responsibility.
Yeah, it's absolutely aberrant that in the US law abiding citizens are sometimes treated below criminals but that doesn't mean that we should take their rights away, we should instead give those rights to law abiding citizens.
metalslimer
Member
Well thank god California is down to the disgusting moral level of states that still allow capital punishment.
Prison is a government entity- it has to follow the Constitution.
Free society is subject to the laws that State and Federal make. Free people are very good and enacting laws that prevent basic human right from being delivered to people based on capitalism and religion.
More_Badass
Member
That wouldnt make a difference. Especially because you can be on death row for decades and they still need to care for you and keep you alive and healthy
Case in point, $121,000 a year for dialysis for a death row inmate
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90611&page=1
You know, I've seen actual trans people die because they haven't had access to treatment. "Give me this or I'll kill myself" is grossly undermining trans people's struggles. It is life threatening and medically necessary to treat a condition like gender dysphoria, whether you like it or not. The longer someone goes without treatment, the more mental anguish and torment they go. It's literally torture for a lot of people to the point that suicide is seen as a way out.
Honestly, I'm glad it's the doctors and a judge that get to decide this decision. So many here have a misunderstand how these things work and lack the ability to remove emotion off the equation when it comes to legal and medical matters. She's a human first, murderer second, despite whatever anyone here feels. Just because she's in prison it does not mean she lose access to her human rights, more over, denying her the only proven effective treatment for a proven serious medical condition is considered inhumane and goes against the eighth amendment over cruel and unusual punishment.
Why should either of those things have any bearing on the medical status of an individual?
Why don't you relax? There's a very valid point here. The point of confinement is not only a restriction of your rights. It's very reasonable for tax payers to be upset over paying for a convicted murderer's non life saving procedure.
Butterfly Witch
Member
Except it is life saving.
Again in many cases it actually is life saving, 41% of trans people attempt suicide.
It's distressing how much you think you know about trans care but actually don't. Especially in the face of people who have had to explain it time and again in this topic. SRS is something most trans individuals can't even afford since we tend to be in the lower income bracket and the surgery itself is expensive as fuck and rarely covered by any insurance at all. That we don't do it doesn't mean we don't want it/don't feel mental anxiety over it that constantly pounds away at us. Of course some don't do it simply because they don't want to and that is their choice. By and large however, srs does wonders to help with one's mood and one's overall qol. It is, for the fact of the matter, life saving.
Comments like yours do nothing to help and only show a sheer amount of ignorance on the matter at hand here. That you state your ignorance with such a gusto of passion and sureheadedness is ridiculous. I don't give a fuck what you think. I give a fuck what medical professionals think. Yes, this person is a killer. That doesn't mean they don't get basic human rights. And that so many people view this as elective when it really does wonders to help depending on the trans individual in question is ridiculous. It shows just how little gaf users at large think about or care about the trans community. Especially with how often everyone against this in this topic has had to deflect or justify other means of medical care but not trans care, no, that's going too far!
Defending this person's right to medical care is not a action of cosigning their past actions. It's a way of providing necessary care. It's about helping with rehabilitation in whatever way is necessary. Even if they have no chance of parole, I'd rather rehabilitate as best as possible than just leave someone in there. Especially considering the sheer amount of people falsely accused/thrown in prison. Not that the person in this case is, mind you, but the attitude on display here by many seems to be very much to belittle trans-care needs and then to deny basic rights that prisoners are granted.
Would I love to have this surgery? Yes, I would. That doesn't mean taking away hers is going to get me mine. These are two entirely separate issues, people. Get that through your heads, please.
Pretty much.
HazySaiyan
Banned
Because apparently when you go to prison you stop being a person all of a sudden.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
GRS by nature is controversial in regards to its medical necessity because it's dependent on mental state and history and varies wildly from patient to patient (which is why insurance companies only pay for it once a criteria is met)
Neither of us know the facts of this particular case. It's 100% possible that it is completely medically necessary but the state has to justify that cost to the taxpayers and I hope the utmost due diligence was done.
Well, I find your stance morally reprehensible. Within you is the same capacity for killing as the murder. You lust to commit torture and murder yourself to people who already are being punished. That is sick.
A FREE citizen in America is only worth how much money they make. If they are poor, they deserve poor/no healthcare because our great moral "Christian" society has deemed they should suffer.
If we want our free people to be treated better, we simply have to treat them better. But we choose not to cause that cost money. No one's life if worth taxes dollars.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Someone who commits the crime of murder deserves as much mental and physical anguish as possible.
Butterfly Witch
Member
No, it's not.
SRS is a life changing surgery that is known to greatly increase the quality of life and improve the trans person's overall mental health. Tackling depression, dysphoria, anxiety and panic attacks all in one go.
Not every trans person wants SRS but that doesn't mean that every trans person shouldn't be able to decide by themselves if they need it or not.
We don't really need the 8th Amendment anyway, huh? Besides, it's not like trans people are often target of abuse and violence in much greater quantities than cisgender people...
And hey, let's not forget that no one has ever been imprisoned wrongly so no innocent person gets to suffer a long, torturous life that literally drives them into insanity due to a wrongful conviction.
This is all true, but the same also applies to insurance companies covering the cost for private, non-criminal citizens. In either case, neither the source of the money nor the legal status of the person is or should be taken into consideration.
Dear god people !
I don't know what is worst ... people saying that genital surgery is elective, implying she must not be moved to a women's prison or just plain saying that prisoners deserve subhuman status and treatment.
You people are a few steps closer to the Brazilian secretary that said, after hearing the news about almost 100 prisoners decapitated in a gang war casualy said that "Need to kill more, like one of these per week" (link in pt-br)
Prisoners are HUMAN BEINGS. They deserve to be healthy, well feed and have their basic human rights respected.
Denying treatment for a psychological condition like depression is unusual punishment borderlining torture.
Putting a woman in a men's prison too.
Reminds me of that comic :
"Good fights evil"
"Good tortures evil"
"Good kills and hides evil's body"
"Thank god we are on the good side"
I don't know what is worst ... people saying that genital surgery is elective, implying she must not be moved to a women's prison or just plain saying that prisoners deserve subhuman status and treatment.
You people are a few steps closer to the Brazilian secretary that said, after hearing the news about almost 100 prisoners decapitated in a gang war casualy said that "Need to kill more, like one of these per week" (link in pt-br)
Prisoners are HUMAN BEINGS. They deserve to be healthy, well feed and have their basic human rights respected.
Denying treatment for a psychological condition like depression is unusual punishment borderlining torture.
Putting a woman in a men's prison too.
Reminds me of that comic :
"Good fights evil"
"Good tortures evil"
"Good kills and hides evil's body"
"Thank god we are on the good side"
You sound a nice person
I find your empathy for criminals who murder people disturbing.
More_Badass
Member
So in other words, for certain crimes, torture is a valid punishment?
QuicheFontaine
Member
I think this is a better way of putting it.
Ninja Scooter
Member
What if someone is convicted of the crime of murder, and you inflict "as much mental and physical anguish as possible" on them, only later to find out they were innocent? Does a simple "my bad" make things all better?
More_Badass
Member
Proper and necessary medical treatment isn't one of those things.
I agree, and I have nothing but sympathy for people who are living with this and I can't possibly begin to understand what it's like.
But... This is a murderer. She kidnapped a 33 year old man, held him for ransom, and murdered him. The man was a father and his children would never see him again. She is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
I agree there are times when there is value in rehabilitating an inmate for reintroduction into society. You deserve a second chance in a great number of cases.
Being put away for life is more than enough to cause you great mental anguish -- As it should. In cases like this I don't particularly care if the murderer's life long struggle is resolved or not. Not all lives have value. Not everyone can be redeemed.
People see stuff like this from progressives and feel like we're aliens. Sometimes it's hard to blame them.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Totally agree.
Butterfly Witch
Member
Some people get to have the 8th Amendment, transgender people clearly don't.
That is what separated civilized societies from barbaric one- caring for fellow humans. I am all for locking people up who do bad things to keep people safe. I just don't agree with torture like you do. Denying medical treatment is torture.
I think America society is barbaric because we don't have a form of universal healthcare. We choose to torture people based purely on money.
You know, some of these responses reminds me of something...
Seriously, the prisoner is a human still, regardless how you feel about what she has done, and as such, she still has access to the very human rights we all have. Denying her treatment to a proven medical condition is inhumane and it goes against the 8th amendment.
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
Good, then you agree with the doctors and judge on this decision.
Seriously, the prisoner is a human still, regardless how you feel about what she has done, and as such, she still has access to the very human rights we all have. Denying her treatment to a proven medical condition is inhumane and it goes against the 8th amendment.
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
Good, then you agree with the doctors and judge on this decision.
More_Badass
Member
But the severity of the crime doesn't dictate what medical treatment you receive
Should a murderer on death row not be allowed insulin or dialysis because they're a murderer?
Which SRS is one.
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