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[Super_Cobra]

Can anyone send me the l link on why she needed the surgery so I can "educate" myself.

Nobody is trying to take away the medical necessities of the inmates. They already get that. If they need surgery, they are transported to a hospital to receive the care they need.
But as a tax payer I need an explanation why this inmate got the green light to get her surgery.

 

[cDNA]

Seeing how this thread got more responses and got more combative than the Obamacare repeal thread in place as progressive as Neogaf, seems to explain how republicans can win elections so easily :/

 

[Coffee Dog]

Agreed but I'm seeing this as they are deemed MORE deserving.

They aren't any more deserving than anyone else in their position. It only seems more deserving because in this one respect prisoners are treated more humanely than our health care system treats free citiziens.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I saw. But do you think the poster would say the same thing for a law abiding civilian?

People hate criminals unfortunately. It's a societal brainwashing that is deep.

Do I think they'd say the surgery is non essential, optional, cosmetic?

Yeah I do because they have.

Maybe with the story being about a prisoner made them more comfortable to speak up, but they've unveiled their true thoughts now about trans folk and our medical treatment.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can anyone send me the l link on why she needed the surgery so I can "educate" myself.

Nobody is trying to take away the medical necessities of the inmates. They already get that. If they need surgery, they are transported to a hospital to receive the care they need.
But as a tax payer I need an explanation why this inmate got the green light to get her surgery.

Surgery is the effective and recommended treatment for gender dysphoria. Ergo she got her treatment.

Again your tax payer contribution amounts to less than a penny, assuming you are even in California. So spare me the monetary concern eh.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Can anyone send me the l link on why she needed the surgery so I can "educate" myself.

Nobody is trying to take away the medical necessities of the inmates. They already get that. If they need surgery, they are transported to a hospital to receive the care they need.
But as a tax payer I need an explanation why this inmate got the green light to get her surgery.

Look up the effects of dysphoria on the psyche and how treatment can help.

People are getting upset with you because they see that you are referring to something they deem necessary (ie the ability to live without gender dysphoria) as nonessential. The bolded is where you're doing this, and to put it simply those disagreeing believe it to be necessary.

 

[chillybright]

I think people still don't care whether Medicali covers it or not. If we go to another state where medicaid doesn't cover it, is it then ok for the penal system to not perform this surgery?

No I think if SRS is well covered by basic healthcare for ordinary citizens people would have way less problem than this. It's mostly not about absolute rights, but reletive ones.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The other major component of this topic: the American justice system is a completely racist, classist shitshow, so if you go down the road of denying medical care to inmates, you are, at some point, going to denying that care to someone who had been wrongly or unfairly imprisoned.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The other major component of this topic: the American justice system is a completely racist, classist shitshow, so if you go down the road of denying medical care to inmates, you are, at some point, going to denying that care to someone who had been wrongly or unfairly imprisoned.

Also correct

 

[entremet]

Do I think they'd say the surgery is non essential, optional, cosmetic?

Yeah I do because they have.

Maybe with the story being about a prisoner made them more comfortable to speak up, but they've unveiled their true thoughts now about trans folk and our medical treatment.

If those thoughts are true, they can never be addressed unless people are aware of their ignorance.

Obviously, if the person is bigoted troll, they won't change. I can see the combative retort.

But not everyone is that aware. They need to be made aware. But just shouting at people will just cause them to double down.

Mumei is a good example of dealing with this stuff. He's not as active anymore unfortunately.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If those thoughts are true, they can never be addressed unless people are aware of their ignorance.

Obviously, if the person is bigoted troll, they won't change. I can see the combative retort.

But not everyone is that aware. They need to be made aware.

What do you think I've been doing here?

 

[Syncytia]

Can anyone send me the l link on why she needed the surgery so I can "educate" myself.

Nobody is trying to take away the medical necessities of the inmates. They already get that. If they need surgery, they are transported to a hospital to receive the care they need.
But as a tax payer I need an explanation why this inmate got the green light to get her surgery.

Fairly succinct overview: https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-dysphoria

This is a good read too
http://www.npr.org/2008/05/07/90247842/two-families-grapple-with-sons-gender-preferences

 

[zeemumu]

So you guys are arguing over whether or not someone should still be entitled to treatment to improve their mental wellbeing after being imprisoned for violent crimes?

Yeah I can see where both of you are coming from. On one hand prison's supposed to be about rehabilitation as well and you can't really expect any form of improvement if your prisoners are in mental anguish, but on the other hand it's really hard to say that someone's entitled to anything after kidnapping and murder.

 

[MUnited83]

If you're going to go after him for word choice you should probably switch your "transphobic" to ignorant or better still, uneducated. Accusing people of ill intent rather than educating them on a new, evolving and highly misunderstood legal, medical and psychological frontier and societal shift seems counterproductive. That person is now defensive rather than curious or receptive.

More flies with honey.

That's like saying I should be educating the people that say "faggot" and "nigger" instead of calling them what they are, bigots and racists. I'm not their motherfucking teacher and they have a whole world of information at the reach of their fingertips.

 

[entremet]

What do you think I've been doing here?

I see that. I'm just saying that there are multiple variables are play here, not just transphobia.

Personally, I'm fine with treating those in prison as human beings. And if that requires surgery, I'm fine with my taxpayer money going there.

But a lot of the undercurrent here is obviously based on the dehumanizing and vengeance based justice system we have.

 

[Makki]

This could mean in the future that if you are transexual and are poor, you have a better chance of getting medical attention by committing an awful crime and getting sponsored by the prison system.

What entity exactly fought for prisoner sex reassignment treatments to be covered, but not to prevent assholes like Texas legislators from blocking measures to give medical treatment to trans people more easily

 

[BajiBoxer]

Surgery is the effective and recommended treatment for gender dysphoria. Ergo she got her treatment.

Again your tax payer contribution amounts to less than a penny, assuming you are even in California. So spare me the monetary concern eh.

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward.

 

[disappeared]

but on the other hand it's really hard to say that someone's entitled to anything after kidnapping and murder.

She is paying for those crimes with being behind bars for the rest of her life. Let her live that life the best she can.

 

[norm9]

On the one hand, I'm glad shes getting treatment for her illness. On the other hand, she's a murderer that killed an innocent dude with a family. I'm conflicted.

 

[GrandHarrier]

You guys might want to take into account that it's presumably one murder, and it's been 36 years since then. In terms of 'has the debt been sufficiently paid to warrant providing a service' the answer would be 'yes'.

You are all very bloodthirsty, when in reality this crime should probably not be a life sentence to begin with. It wouldn't be in most places, actually.

So in your mind a human life has a quantifiable value of less than 36 years of another human beings life. Interesting.

 

[Naudi]

No, actually you don't lose fundamental human rights when you commit a serious crime. Your freedom is curtailed but you don't magically become some fucking animal that can be abused at the state's pleasure.

I guess I just don't see this surgery as a fundamental human right that should be paid for by tax payers. Do it on their own dime.

 

[Monocle]

That's like saying I should be educating the people that say "faggot" and "bigger" instead of calling them what they are, bigots and racists. I'm not their motherfucking teacher and they have a whole world of information at the reach of their fingertips.

Can't disagree, but the fact remains it's nearly impossible to get through to someone who's on the defensive. You can take the effective approach, or tell the person to fuck off and choke on their ignorance. Can't really see a third option apart from declining to engage in the first place.

 

[Audioboxer]

As long as state-financed sex-reassignment surgery is in place for citizens out with prison then this is fine.

Yes people lose rights when they get convicted and sent to prison, but it's not then up to us to herd humans as animals, even if they have life sentences. You all do realize prisons employ psychologists, psychiatrists and a whole host of support, both mental and physical for inmates?

Why? Because as I just said, we shouldn't treat life barbarically no matter how barbaric an individual has been. A jail sentence if not life is the punishment (I mean a life sentence, but yes also life as in death, if for example it's a legitmate shooting of a threat/killer), not us allowing health or mental concerns to just lead to suicide and/or violence within the prison. Injustices within the American health industry are far more about how bad free health care is in general, not lumping it all on inmates. 1st world countries should have free health care for all citizens, inmates included. Cosmetic surgery is a different thing, sex-assignment is not cosmetic.

A career path I'm considering exploring once qualified is working within prisons.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

This could mean in the future that if you are transexual and are poor, you have a better chance of getting medical attention by committing an awful crime and getting sponsored by the prison system.

What entity exactly fought for prisoner sex reassignment treatments to be covered, but not to prevent assholes like Texas legislators from blocking measures to give medical treatment to trans people more easily

People in prison already have better healthcare than poor people. This isn't some stunning new development or loophole

 

[Coffee Dog]

That's like saying I should be educating the people that say "faggot" and "bigger" instead of calling them what they are, bigots and racists. I'm not their motherfucking teacher and they have a whole world of information at the reach of their fingertips.

No, it isnt. In this context, you are engaged in a conversation with this person over gaf. It doesn't matter if you're a teacher or not, you're posting to them, and engaging with them. There are things you can do to make that conversation productive, or you can just try to piss the guy off.

 

[entremet]

I guess I just don't see this surgery as a fundamental human right that should be paid for by tax payers. Do it on their own dime.

They can't make money. Nor do they have access to decent health insurance. What about food? You pay for their food as a taxpayer.

 

[StrategyFan]

if medical professionals feel it's important, it's an acceptable use of public funds

that said, i would guess (since i'm not a healthcare expert) that there are more important things to spend that money on

not all people's well-being is worth the same. homicide isn't some minor offense that can be downplayed by questioning the fairness of our criminal justice system. in those cases, it's a "get those people out of society and keep them out" system

 

[zeemumu]

She is paying for those crimes with being behind bars for the rest of her life. Let her live that life the best she can.

But you can see why some people's responses might be "no, screw you. You suffer" right?

 

[Naudi]

They can't make money. Nor do they have access to decent health insurance. What about food? You pay for their food as a taxpayer.

Well food is required to keep them alive lol. I'm sure you can see the difference.

 

[BajiBoxer]

This could mean in the future that if you are transexual and are poor, you have a better chance of getting medical attention by committing an awful crime and getting sponsored by the prison system.

What entity exactly fought for prisoner sex reassignment treatments to be covered, but not to prevent assholes like Texas legislators from blocking measures to give medical treatment to trans people more easily

Though if you're transexual and poor, you might be more at risk of ending up in jail or worse as the condition takes its toll on you psychologically. If someone is so desperate as to commit a horrible crime to get medical treatment, food, or some other necessity, then the problem isn't with the prison system.

 

[Monocle]

I guess I just don't see this surgery as a fundamental human right that should be paid for by tax payers. Do it on their own dime.

Why not? Have you looked into gender dysphoria to gain a basic sense of the central issue? I'm not making an original claim here. It's the consensus of the medical community that gender dysphoria requires treatment in the form of gender reassignment surgery.

You can check this out on Wikipedia if you want. Look at the citations so you know where the info is coming from.

 

[entremet]

Well food is required to keep them alive lol. I'm sure you can see the difference.

As a society we determined that human beings have needs beyond food and water, though.

 

[How About No]

On the one hand, I'm glad shes getting treatment for her illness. On the other hand, she's a murderer that killed an innocent dude with a family. I'm conflicted.

This is why we aren't the ones in charge

I guess I just don't see this surgery as a fundamental human right that should be paid for by tax payers. Do it on their own dime.

You mean after they're out of prison? After they're dead? lmao

 

[excelsiorlef]

I see that. I'm just saying that there are multiple variables are play here, not just transphobia.

Personally, I'm fine with treating those in prison as human beings. And if that requires surgery, I'm fine with my taxpayer money going there.

But a lot of the undercurrent here is obviously based on the dehumanizing and vengeance based justice system we have.

Except a necessary surgery does not become unnecessary, optional , cosmetic just on the basis of who needs it.

It is less that the patient being a prisoner changes how necessary they view the surgery and more that the patient being a prisoner makes them feel more comfortable about expressing their views in general.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Well food is required to keep them alive lol. I'm sure you can see the difference.

The opposing stance is that dysphoria is a medical condition so necessary of treatment that this surgery would be necessary to keep them alive and (big one here) functioning.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Well food is required to keep them alive lol. I'm sure you can see the difference.

so is a healthy mental state.

 

[excelsiorlef]

On the one hand, I'm glad shes getting treatment for her illness. On the other hand, she's a murderer that killed an innocent dude with a family. I'm conflicted.

If she needed dialysis because her kidney was failing, would you be conflicted?

What about medication to treat bipolar disorder?

 

[entremet]

Except a necessary surgery does not become unnecessary, optional , cosmetic just on the basis of who needs it.

It is less that the patient being a prisoner changes how necessary they view the surgery and more that the patient being a prisoner makes them feel more comfortable about expressing their views in general.

Good point.

My thing is that is another indictment on the how poorly mental health is considered in this country. We would rather have inmates suffer mentally and emotionally as long as they have "food and water".

 

[disappeared]

But you can see why some people's responses might be "no, screw you. You suffer" right?

No, I can't. I mean, I'm reading the words but they aren't making sense to me.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I guess I just don't see this surgery as a fundamental human right that should be paid for by tax payers. Do it on their own dime.

Then, in all honesty, you should educate yourself a little on the subject rather than resigning yourself to what appears to be some kind of "gut feeling" that is likely rooted in ignorance and/or misinformation. You are on the internet. Information is at your fingertips. There really no excuse.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

No, you GAIN it.

This is a problem with the US healthcare system in general rather than prison healthcare, though.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I'd rather give money to convicted criminals than to certain politicians. So I'm cool with it.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Except a necessary surgery does not become unnecessary, optional , cosmetic just on the basis of who needs it.

It is less that the patient being a prisoner changes how necessary they view the surgery and more that the patient being a prisoner makes them feel more comfortable about expressing their views in general.

I'm sure we could find many people advocating for a lack of treatment of nonlife endangering conditions for death row inmates. They are ignorant and fools, of course, but the nature of such ignorance is at the heart of this line of discussion.

 

[Kthulhu]

So in your mind a human life has a quantifiable value of less than 36 years of another human beings life. Interesting.

In Norway (a country that actually cares about human rights) there is no life sentence, and prisoners don't spend more than 20 years for crimes like murder and rape, yet they are able to get by just fine.

 

[Slo]

Why do you consider SRS to be less important than any other kind of medical surgery?

Because it's elective, of course. Do we also pay for free nose jobs?

 

[Hip Hop]

In Norway (a country that actually cares about human rights) there is no life sentence, and prisoners don't spend more than 20 years for crimes like murder and rape, yet they are able to get by just fine.

I'm glad we are not Norway on that front then.

I don't believe murderers or rapist deserve a second chance at life.

 

[Kthulhu]

Because it's elective, of course. Do we also pay for free nose jobs?

Are you stupid?

I'm glad we are not Norway on that front then.

I don't believe murderers or rapist deserve a second chance at life.

Too bad. Those people actually move on to be productive citizens instead of being locked up for most of their lives for a ridiculous amount of momey.

 

[ffejeromdiks]

I guess we're all simply transphobic Trump supporters for thinking this is fundamentally wrong. I'm all for gender assignment surgeries but for a murderer with a life sentence...seriously?

 

[Coffee Dog]

Because it's elective, of course. Do we also pay for free nose jobs?

We would if it was proven that nose jobs keep people from suffering from dysphoria.

 

[Opto]

ok. She's still gonna be in prison