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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015
- Thread starter matthewwhatever
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ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Hours Left
Member
Sorry, it was on TV and I can't find it on YouTube.
If I see it again I'll try and track it down.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
It's hard to know how they would have handled Quebec under Layton, although I expect he would have gotten burned in the niqab thing anyway regardless.
Conservative racism plays across the board, so they don't lose on that issue or any issue on identity politics. The NDP keep trying to balance their platform by saying one thing that applies to Quebec and another that applies everywhere else, so they're forced into losing seats in Quebec to try to make it up in the rest of the country. Which is where we're at now, with the NDP sliding into that fake "Kingmaker" position that people claim can control the direction the government goes but in reality (as we saw with the Lib-Dems in the UK) actually leads the third party into oblivion.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I'm not especially sure the allegation was ever that substantive policies have moved to the right; rather, focus and rhetoric has (see: the change in the party constitution). Meanwhile, the Liberals under Trudeau have undoubtedly moved to the left on a variety of issues.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I would say removing Liberal senators from the caucus was probably his biggest move to try to get some attention. Assuming he is actually the next PM, it'll be interesting to see how he can deal with the actual realities of trying to keep any of these new policies.
Cripplegate
Member
I just saw it as an ad on YouTube, amusingly. It's for http://www.bethevote.ca
Ad is right there on the page.
Does anyone know if any political party has gone from third to first in an Canadian federal election ever because there is a chance the liberals will end up in first place on election night?I know parties like the Alberta NDP have gone from like second last(ahead of the lone independent) to like first in the 2015 provincial election.
Mike Works
Member
Until recently I was leaning liberal, but I think I might vote NDP now as penance for gutter_trash not shutting the **** up about Mulclair.
We get it. Seriously, we get it. You don't like him. At all. We get it.
I, and many others think Stephen Harper is one of the worst things to happen to Canada, and yet somehow your negative posts on Tom Mulclair have overshadowed every anti-Harper and anti-Trudeau post combined.
I don't want to stifle or surpess any political persuasion nor conversation in this thread. If any conservative voter wants to chat issues with me here I think that'd be awesome.
But Christ is it tiring to read about you bitch about how fake Mulclair and his smile are every. single. day.
I get it that you're passionate. You offer some great discourse about other issues in this thread that are interesting to read.
So please hear me when I say: we get it. We hear your opinion of Mulclair loud and clear.
I can damn near promise you that any person on here who could be wavered by your opinion has already been so.
Anything further at this point would simply be redundant.
Please. For the love of God please.
One last Canadianism: sorry if this came across as harsh. Those posts just make me not want to read this thread, which I hate, because I find it incredibly interesting and valuable.
We get it. Seriously, we get it. You don't like him. At all. We get it.
I, and many others think Stephen Harper is one of the worst things to happen to Canada, and yet somehow your negative posts on Tom Mulclair have overshadowed every anti-Harper and anti-Trudeau post combined.
I don't want to stifle or surpess any political persuasion nor conversation in this thread. If any conservative voter wants to chat issues with me here I think that'd be awesome.
But Christ is it tiring to read about you bitch about how fake Mulclair and his smile are every. single. day.
I get it that you're passionate. You offer some great discourse about other issues in this thread that are interesting to read.
So please hear me when I say: we get it. We hear your opinion of Mulclair loud and clear.
I can damn near promise you that any person on here who could be wavered by your opinion has already been so.
Anything further at this point would simply be redundant.
Please. For the love of God please.
One last Canadianism: sorry if this came across as harsh. Those posts just make me not want to read this thread, which I hate, because I find it incredibly interesting and valuable.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
So about Mulcair...
Please don't do that Mike Works. No matter what your party preference is or which party fans annoy you, vote strategically - see http://www.votetogether.ca
Nothing is more important then getting out Harper. I prefer Liberals but it's all minor differences and complaints between Liberals and NDP - the only thing that really matters is getting the conservatives out. We need to be back to being a progressive and democratic socialist country like we were before the conservatives slowly eroded that over the last decade.
Nothing is more important then getting out Harper. I prefer Liberals but it's all minor differences and complaints between Liberals and NDP - the only thing that really matters is getting the conservatives out. We need to be back to being a progressive and democratic socialist country like we were before the conservatives slowly eroded that over the last decade.
Mike Works
Member
I wouldn't actually change my vote to spite anyone, let alone a stranger on a video game forum
I just really want to come into this thread for political discourse mingled with personal opinions and stories (like early voting experiences, going to rallies, talking shop with relatives, etc).
If I posted every time I thought something bad about Stephen Harper, this thread would be fucking spammed with that shit, which is what I feel gutter_trash is doing.
Just to reiterate, I have nothing against anti-Mulclair/NDP sentiment. At all.
I just don't think we need the same opinion posted by the same person ten times a day, every single day. This thread would be abysmal if even half of us did that, and I'd like to think we're above it.
So you don't think the popular leader of a party dying might have eroded some support?
I don't think Canadians just look at the platform and call it a day. Do you think the Liberals moved that much politically in the years from Martin, to Dion, to Ignatieff, to Rae, to Trudeau? People hated Dion. Then they hated Ignatiff more. Rae is pretty much a gropey leper politically. Oh yeah, and there was this guy named Bill (who?) Graham (exactly) shoved in there somewhere to boot.
CO-SIGNED.
Hours Left
Member
Yeah, that's the one. Thanks.I just saw it as an ad on YouTube, amusingly. It's for http://www.bethevote.ca
Ad is right there on the page.
haha, awesome.
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but harper's has actually been very worried about losing to trudeau lately and a bit angry at people also.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?binId=1.810401
http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?binId=1.810401
This is what happened at my location. There were three stations. My Voting Station had like... 25'ish people in front of me. One had like 0-3 people at the most at any time, and the other had maybe 5'ish people most of the time.
A few people who got in line behind me left because the line was so long / not moving very fast.
gutter_trash
Banned
making fun of a French-Canadian accent when trying to speak English is not cool.
Would you make fun of an Asian accent trying to speak English? no, why? because it is racist to do so.
daycare, daycare:
2ndly, Paul Martin inculded a national daycare program in his last budget but the NDP, Jack Layton and Olivia Chow sided with Harper to defeat the Martin budget and gave us 9 yer Conservative rule without a national daycare program.
I hear Olivia Chow going around Toronto (Spadina) going bladiiblah about Daycare, housing, daycare, housing, daycare, LOL she was one of the ones who voted against a national daycare program
The NDP deserves nothing but 3rd place eternal.
Making fun of Chretien's accent won't garner Mulcair much support from swing Liberal voters.
Trashing Pierre Trudeau in three debates in a row won't garner Muclair much support from swing Liberal voters.
eBay Huckster
Member
what great discourse does he offer about anything but nationalism and petty whining about things on the campaign trail?
he perennially dodges questions about actual policy, to the point that he couldn't even conjure up a defense of his farcical statements about PR entrenching regionalist parties at the beginning of the campaign even after i asked him to provide one on no less than 4 separate occasions.
at the same time, ignoring gutter equals an entire tenth of this thread you're getting rid of
which isn't actually a big loss considering 95% of those are rants about those filthy non-Liberals who dare to campaign against them & question-dodging about anything that doesn't explicitly pertain to his violent hate-boner for about 60% of francophone voters, but still
Simon Belmont
Banned
Isn't backseat modding generally frowned upon?
gutter_trash
Banned
Perfect Blue
Banned
An... interesting article from yesterday: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rper-last-remnant-george-w-bush-north-america
I'm about to see my own brain with how hard I'm rolling my eyes right now.
No. Many Francophones in Quebec were already treating Canada as a force of oppression when Trudeau was elected for the first time. By the '76 PQ victory, Anglophones were leaving the province en masse because they were being treated like lessers even if they'd lived in Quebec their whole lives.
The whole "Trudeau treated Quebec like shit!!" ideology is based on the fact that he had an uphill climb from the very beginning. From the moment he formed a government he was hated, and it only took a year before he had to deal with terrorism in his country. If Francophones are seriously unwilling to look past the short time in which the War Measures Act were in place (and with the support of 86% of Francophones in the country), I don't think any Official Languages Act or any other concession would make him more liked.
According to this article, Pierre Poilivere may have fucked the Conservatives over in Ottawa:
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/12/tories-may-regret-shutting-out-potential-ottawa-candidates
Basically, there were a few popular local politicians interested in running as Conservative candidates in the Ottawa ridings with no Conservative incumbent running but Pierre Poilievre shut them down in favour of no-names to guarantee his position as Harper's lapdog.
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/12/tories-may-regret-shutting-out-potential-ottawa-candidates
Basically, there were a few popular local politicians interested in running as Conservative candidates in the Ottawa ridings with no Conservative incumbent running but Pierre Poilievre shut them down in favour of no-names to guarantee his position as Harper's lapdog.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
So, there were two high profile strong conservative women ready to run in Ottawa and he shut them down in favor of an all-male lineup of Ottawa-area conservative candidates?
I think the voting stations are divided up alphabetically, so some people go through quicker depending on their last name. Each voting station has their own block of the alphabet that they deal with.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe, just maybe, there's a reason why quebecers saw Canada as an oppressor. But nah, being quebecers, they must just be naturally winy and hateful of canadians for absolutely no reason. Sending the army to occupy Montreal and arrest anybody they want to stop a couple of terrorists must have showed them that there's no reason to feel oppressed, however.
TheRealTalker
Banned
Muclair isn't going to get the boot
He is experienced, knows how to answer question and is loved by his party... The only thing he doesn't have currently is recognition by the public. He is still in Layton's shadow but I believe he is making a image for himself so he might be even more recognizable for the next election
He is experienced, knows how to answer question and is loved by his party... The only thing he doesn't have currently is recognition by the public. He is still in Layton's shadow but I believe he is making a image for himself so he might be even more recognizable for the next election
Simon Belmont
Banned
I don't know why but I actually thought stet would get a more thought out reply than this.
I didn't say there wasn't a reason, but it wasn't Trudeau's doing. And as I said, support for the War Measures Act was at 89% among Francophones when it was enacted.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
From the general tone of this thread toward Quebec, writing long thought-out replies is a total waste of time.
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that 89% number was before it was enabled. Sure, a lot of people wanted something to be done concerning the instability, but the response was totally disproportionate. It was like killing a fly with a bazooka and clearly felt like intimidation tactic to kill the independentist movement.
EDIT: If you can read french, this short article gives a pretty good idea of what it was like and why it was not justified.
Simon Belmont
Banned
But coming in here to throw a hissy fit every time someone mentions Quebec isn't? For all your complaints about people viewing Quebec as whiny you certainly aren't shy about playing the victim card, which is fine, but if you're not going to make any attempt to explain why you're just reinforcing the stereotype of the typical wounded francophone.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Surprisingly, every time I give more elaborate answers and post sources, articles, etc., it goes by completely ignored and the same tired stereotypes and racist comments come back again and again.
It's easy to look back and say something was not justified rather than to judge it at the time, with an overwhelming majority of people supporting it and a province in crisis.
Especially strange in that Le Devoir article is this argument:
Yes, there were worse things happening in the U.S...but we are not the U.S.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I don't get how that justify anything that has been done. Yay, we suppress individual liberties better than the US?
Simon Belmont
Banned
You obviously want to change people's minds, so articulate fella. Why was the War Measures act a bad idea when ~80% of the population was in favour of it?
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I know I won't change anybody's mind. I'm not crazy. I just want to point out ignorant, false or racist comments without letting them go by unchallenged.
And I already addressed that 80% thing, not like it changes anything. After the fact, I can assure you a lot less than 80% of the population approved of what happened.
Simon Belmont
Banned
You're not really answering my admittedly awkwardly worded question though, so I will phrase it differently.
What was specifically wrong about implementing the act at the time, and what do you believe should have been done instead?
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
I went for advanced voting in Brampton yesterday. Thought I would be in and out in about 10. Nope waitied in line for 30. Place was packed. Lines going outside. I was lucky my polling had a small line. Saw alot of new voters which is always nice to see
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
We had the difficult decision of enacting serious measures to quell a terrorist uprising and have paid for doing so ever since. Yes, there were more than 400 arrests, and yes, some of those people were held for three weeks without hearing. But the vast majority were released between a few hours and a few days after their arrests.
What we have to keep in mind is that legislation is extremely difficult to write and pass in a short period of time. The War Measures Act wasn't ideal, but it was the only legislative option available. When they had legislation written (a few weeks later) they replaced it with the Public Order Temporary Measures Act, which was subsequently lifted four months later when the threat was obviously gone. Even still, the bulk of the arrests under the Act were made the very day of its passing, so the length isn't even in question.
We also have to keep in mind that nobody knew how big or how organized the FLQ were, only that they had managed to kidnap (and later kill) a public official for the first time in over 100 years. It was only after the crisis was over that we learned how shoddily their plans were put together. That's why retrospect is dangerous, because it doesn't deal with what we knew at the time.
Retrospect in this sense may be dangerous, but so too is using popular support for the suppression of rights as justification. Lots of terrible abuses of martial law have been popular, that in and of itself is not justification for them.
Simon Belmont
Banned
I feel like the abduction and murder of a public official is, though.
That's a valid position to take. I don't, personally, agree that that is justification for the suspension of habeas corpus, but I can respect that difference of opinion.
I'm specifically addressing the use of popular support among francophones in the heat of crisis as justification. Popular support of the suspension of rights of a minority is a terrible justification, even if that minority goes along with it.
It's not a whole-hog justification, but it shows the difference between in-crisis decision making and retrospective decision making. And it wasn't the suspension of rights of a minority. It was a suspension of rights in general.
gutter_trash
Banned
Not only was MNA Pierre Laporte a high ranking minister, he was also Vice Premier under Bourassa.
Mulcair was also an Quebec Liberal MNA under Bourassa's later term which makes Mulcair's present attacks on Pierre Trudeau very odd considering that a Quebec Liberal minister lost his life in 1970
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