• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

Status
Not open for further replies.

maharg

idspispopd
What is your definition of statistical noise? 3 or 4% swings make a huge difference in our electoral system.

First of all, there's no way to measure which way people voted strategically, if they voted strategically, or in what numbers.
Even if you could measure, you'd probably find that between low info and high info voters, they think different choices are the correct strategic vote for their riding.
Even the high information voters don't have anywhere near enough information to make a truly informed decision, so they are probably, even within that group, making contradictory choices.

It's really unlikely that strategic voting on a per-riding basis has ever produced a single swing worthy of note. Most of the effort is expended on ridings with no hope. To drive this point home, every election since Harper took power has pushed the strategic vote frenzy higher and higher. Every election since then has resulted in greater and greater victories for Harper. Empiricism is not on the side of this approach to gaming the system.

Now, a national swing towards a single party that can win *is* effective, and is arguably also strategic voting, but it's not what people usually mean when they say it in Canada right now thanks to organizations peddling uniform swing lists as actual advice, which is basically just snake oil placebo nonsense.

And all of this is just yet another reason why we need PR.

</rant>
 

Firestorm

Member
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/15/stephen-harper-master-manipulator

Amazing article by The Guardian on the bullshit Harper's pulled to stay in power and what he did once he got his majority. Sharin' the hell out of it.

My perception has always been that the impact of strategic voting is not very substantial.
It may be the company I keep but everyone I know is voting strategically this time. People have been a lot more engaged this election than others. Then again, it's mostly just people I talk to in person and on Facebook so not representative. Just let me keep hoping okay?
 

mo60

Member
i think the NDP slide in Quebec has stopped

The TVA French debate week caused them to bleed but I believe that the bleeding is over.

I think people had enough time to realize a re-think on the issue if it is even worth letting Harper get re-elected over it.

Polls showing the Bloc winning double digits in seats now have fallen back to single digits seats.

The anti-Harper vote is stronger than the hyper-secularism sentiment almost duping people in Quebec from the Left to vote for Harper.

Right Wing Quebecers will vote Conservative, but the amount of Left Wing Quebecers who thought of voting for Harper for the Niqab are shying away from that thaught and going back to being Anti-Harper first.

Hardcore separatists are voting Bloc anyway or not showing up to vote.

Yep. You are right. I expect the ndp to get around 40 to 48 seats on election night in Quebec now. They seem to be polling in the low thirties in Quebec right now while the other parties are way to concentrated in certain areas to really challenge the ndp much. Besides the Liberals I don't expect the other parties to get many seats in quebec.I expect Mulcair's riding to become a safer riding for him eventually before election day while I expect Duceppe to not get his former riding anymore.
 

ameratsu

Member
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/15/stephen-harper-master-manipulator

Amazing article by The Guardian on the bullshit Harper's pulled to stay in power and what he did once he got his majority. Sharin' the hell out of it.

It may be the company I keep but everyone I know is voting strategically this time. People have been a lot more engaged this election than others. Then again, it's mostly just people I talk to in person and on Facebook so not representative. Just let me keep hoping okay?

Read this earlier. Pretty scathing to have this all laid out like this, yet embarrassing that it wasn't written by a Canadian.
 
First of all, there's no way to measure which way people voted strategically, if they voted strategically, or in what numbers.
Even if you could measure, you'd probably find that between low info and high info voters, they think different choices are the correct strategic vote for their riding.
Even the high information voters don't have anywhere near enough information to make a truly informed decision, so they are probably, even within that group, making contradictory choices.

It's really unlikely that strategic voting on a per-riding basis has ever produced a single swing worthy of note. Most of the effort is expended on ridings with no hope. To drive this point home, every election since Harper took power has pushed the strategic vote frenzy higher and higher. Every election since then has resulted in greater and greater victories for Harper. Empiricism is not on the side of this approach to gaming the system.

Now, a national swing towards a single party that can win *is* effective, and is arguably also strategic voting, but it's not what people usually mean when they say it in Canada right now thanks to organizations peddling uniform swing lists as actual advice, which is basically just snake oil placebo nonsense.

And all of this is just yet another reason why we need PR.

</rant>

It's hard for me to argue otherwise without any hard numbers, but fwiw, Leadnow has had 450,000 people pledge to vote strategically (as in, people who gave full names, emails, and their postal code). They've also raised enough money to fund multiple riding polls.

And yeah, the plural of ancedote isn't data, but almost everyone I know is voting strategically (though a lot of people's strategic choice was already their first choice) and I've had two people recommend me to go sites like Leadnow and Strategic Voting.

However, I might just be biased because I voted strategically. My first choice was NDP because of PR, but I voted Liberal lol. I also convinced my brother who's completely apathetic about politics to vote 'strategically': "You hate Harper right? No need to research anything, just vote Liberal". And so he did.
 
I live in Alberta, and the amount of racism, oil industry boot licking, and muslim hate I see is disgusting. Everyone seems to of forgotten how Wildrose and the Conservatives ran our province into the ground the last 8 years. Everything wrong with the province is somehow the NDPs fault.

Fuck I hate my province.
 

Firestorm

Member
Read this earlier. Pretty scathing to have this all laid out like this, yet embarrassing that it wasn't written by a Canadian.
I've been super frustrated that he keeps getting elected despite all this bullshit. It's like spitting directly on the idea of democracy. The election in 2011 was stupefying. It was nice to have someone just put it all out there like that.

Basically:

pinkman.gif
I also convinced my brother who's completely apathetic about politics to vote 'strategically': "You hate Harper right? No need to research anything, just vote Liberal". And so he did.
Yeah, strategic voting has made it really easy to get people who might be overwhelmed to go vote. "Give me your postal code. Okay, yeah vote x for the best chance of taking down Harper."
 

gabbo

Member
I live in Alberta, and the amount of racism, oil industry boot licking, and muslim hate I see is disgusting. Everyone seems to of forgotten how Wildrose and the Conservatives ran our province into the ground the last 8 years. Everything wrong with the province is somehow the NDPs fault.

Fuck I hate my province.

Only for 8 years, huh?
 
I hope the Jays game on Monday doesn't mess up turnout too much

Sportsnet and the Jays twitter should encourage people to vote earlier in the day....
 

Azzanadra

Member
I live in Alberta, and the amount of racism, oil industry boot licking, and muslim hate I see is disgusting. Everyone seems to of forgotten how Wildrose and the Conservatives ran our province into the ground the last 8 years. Everything wrong with the province is somehow the NDPs fault.

Fuck I hate my province.

I am curious, how did the NDP fail to/no longer appeal to the prairies? Their whole ideology sounds like a wet dream for the "working men of the earth" that constitute the rural populations in those areas. I am well aware of the conservative ideologies most of the population in the prairies subscribe to, but I feel that to them at least, economic equality sounds more appealing than "dem lower taxes" and "Christian values". Especially, of course, because the Conservatives would NEVER try to implement the latter. I can't see them acting against homosexuality or abortion these days, no matter how much their fan base wants it.
 

SRG01

Member
I am curious, how did the NDP fail to/no longer appeal to the prairies? Their whole ideology sounds like a wet dream for the "working men of the earth" that constitute the rural populations in those areas. I am well aware of the conservative ideologies most of the population in the prairies subscribe to, but I feel that to them at least, economic equality sounds more appealing than "dem lower taxes" and "Christian values". Especially, of course, because the Conservatives would NEVER try to implement the latter. I can't see them acting against homosexuality or abortion these days, no matter how much their fan base wants it.

To be honest, the NDP appeal hasn't faded yet. It's only been around half a year since the NDP government was elected, and much of the backlash is coming from right-wing elements of the province. There have been polls, but polls mean absolutely nothing at this point in Albertan politics.

Keep in mind that the Wildrose have also lead in numerous polls in the past, and yet they still haven't made government in three (or more?) elections.
 

Zzoram

Member
Just saw a new Liberal tv ad. Hazel McCallion says Harper is lying about Liberals cancelling income splitting, and equates Harper to those phone scammers that try to scare seniors into buying garbage.
 

Pedrito

Member
I hope the Jays game on Monday doesn't mess up turnout too much

Sportsnet and the Jays twitter should encourage people to vote earlier in the day....

I wonder if it will have any effect on the vote and if it does, who it will favor?

At first I thought the CPC, but maybe not. Men are more likely to skip the vote because of baseball and men are also more likely to vote conservatives.
 

Zzoram

Member
The media's got this all screwed up.

Crosby vehemently denies he has had anything to do with Harper's campaign, and I believe him. He didn't "ditch" anybody, as delicious as this betrayalton would be.

It's possible that Harper didn't hire him but merely attempted to mimic his xenophobic strategy.
 
I wonder if it will have any effect on the vote and if it does, who it will favor?

At first I thought the CPC, but maybe not. Men are more likely to skip the vote for baseball and men are also more likely to vote conservatives.


The game starts at 8, still tons of time to vote, I'd like to think that the people who think it's important to vote will still take the time to vote, and most of the people that don't vote wouldn't vote anyway

We'll see
 

S-Wind

Member
The media's got this all screwed up.

Crosby vehemently denies he has had anything to do with Harper's campaign, and I believe him. He didn't "ditch" anybody, as delicious as this betrayalton would be.

Crosby REALLY doesn't want the stink of Harper's upcoming loss to be anywhere near him!
 

Azih

Member
It affects votetogether.

votetogether and strategic voting have completely different methodologies. From what I can tell votetogether actually does deep polling of a riding while strategic voting doesn't. I'd go with votetogether over strategicvoting but, honestly, this is one of the problems with strategic voting in general. There's too much conflicting information that is all of it far from perfect.
 

mo60

Member
The media's got this all screwed up.

Crosby vehemently denies he has had anything to do with Harper's campaign, and I believe him. He didn't "ditch" anybody, as delicious as this betrayalton would be.

He was probably just advising them a bit at most from afar. That is what I heard. I just think he stopped completely advising them in the few weeks of so. I'm not sure if what the article was talking about triggered it since the guy has only ever lost one election for a political party he was helping win an election.
 

Pedrito

Member
The game starts at 8, still tons of time to vote, I'd like to think that the people who think it's important to vote will still take the time to vote, and most of the people that don't vote wouldn't vote anyway

We'll see

Oh, I thought it was in the afternoon like the other games.

At 8, it won't have much impact.
 

Popstar

Member
votetogether and strategic voting have completely different methodologies. From what I can tell votetogether actually does deep polling of a riding while strategic voting doesn't. I'd go with votetogether over strategicvoting but, honestly, this is one of the problems with strategic voting in general. There's too much conflicting information that is all of it far from perfect.
The problem in this instance is that the Executive Director of Leadnow &#8211; which runs Votetogether &#8211; is friends with the NDP candidate for Vancouver-Granville.

When you have...

Both recent (Oct 8 and Oct 9-11) riding level polls showing the Liberal candidate ahead of the NDP candidate.
The projections from 308 and Signal putting the Liberal candidate ahead.
The 2011 redistributed results having more Liberal votes than NDP votes.

...giving the endorsement to the NDP candidate is "bad optics" as they say.
 

UberTag

Member
First of all, there's no way to measure which way people voted strategically, if they voted strategically, or in what numbers.
Even if you could measure, you'd probably find that between low info and high info voters, they think different choices are the correct strategic vote for their riding.
Even the high information voters don't have anywhere near enough information to make a truly informed decision, so they are probably, even within that group, making contradictory choices.

It's really unlikely that strategic voting on a per-riding basis has ever produced a single swing worthy of note. Most of the effort is expended on ridings with no hope. To drive this point home, every election since Harper took power has pushed the strategic vote frenzy higher and higher. Every election since then has resulted in greater and greater victories for Harper. Empiricism is not on the side of this approach to gaming the system.

Now, a national swing towards a single party that can win *is* effective, and is arguably also strategic voting, but it's not what people usually mean when they say it in Canada right now thanks to organizations peddling uniform swing lists as actual advice, which is basically just snake oil placebo nonsense.

And all of this is just yet another reason why we need PR.

</rant>
It's a valid rant. We do need PR.

As far as strategic voting goes, I look at it this way. In a climate of perceived momentum shift like this one - and there's no discounting that perception is out there whether projections are bunk or not - let's not over-complicate things.

If a riding has historically never had an NDP MP, vote Liberal.

If a riding projection has a Liberal MP as a clear front-runner over their NDP counterpart - and the riding has swung Liberal many times in the past, vote Liberal.

If you're in a new riding the situation is a little dicier as you have to factor in a mix of voter tendencies across multiple ridings... however, if those original ridings largely exude the same qualities as the two above examples, vote Liberal.

If you're in a riding with an incumbent NDP MP who has boasted a solid track record during their stint as our recognized opposition party, vote NDP.

If you're in a riding that has historically never had a Liberal MP, vote NDP.

If a riding projection has an NDP MP as a clear front-runner over their Liberal counterpart - and the riding has swung NDP many times in the past, vote NDP.

And, otherwise, vote your conscience based on the platform and local representation you approve of the most.

Don't let some third-party strategic voting site tell you which way to vote in a riding where it's a legit competition between the NDP and Liberals and either one can win. Make up your own mind. Dirty pool is clearly being employed in the Vancouver-Granville situation.
 

Cynar

Member
When Harper uses the meaningless niqab wedge issue to distract from everything else, you guys hate it, but it becomes awfully useful when it's time to demonize a party and pretend they only exist to oppress minorities.
The current CPC is all that. It's the old Reform/Canadian Alliance in charge so don't be surprised.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned

Crosby, who has a proven track record of helping right-wing politicians get elected in both his native Australia and the United Kingdom, is known to run a disciplined campaign by focusing heavily on vote-winning core messages such as the economy or immigration.

In 2001, Crosby helped then-Australian PM John Howard win re-election by having him claim that Afghan asylum seekers were throwing their children into the sea, using emotional blackmail to enter the country via boats.

More recently, Crosby is alleged to have used the phrase &#8220;f***ing Muslims&#8221; while working as an advisor for London&#8217;s Conservative mayor Boris Johnson during his 2012 campaign for re-election, according to an article published on Nov. 17 of that year in the Daily Mail.

In Canada, Crosby's hand is widely believed to be behind arguments over the wearing of niqabs at citizenship ceremonies, a row that may have contributed to a spike in anti-Muslim hate crimes that included an assault on a veiled pregnant woman in Montreal.

If that's true it's a pretty gross misjudgement of Canadian values, and not surprising that it's eroded, rather than galvanised, the base.
 
If that's true it's a pretty gross misjudgement of Canadian values, and not surprising that it's eroded, rather than galvanised, the base.

Yea I knew that shit wouldnt fly for too long here. Theres a large educated Muslim community in Canada. Thats why youre seeing them go into full desperation mode by spreading lies on other wedge issues like weed/prostitution.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
I guess the fact that when I scroll down to the bottom of this webpage I see a picture of the NDP candidate (Mira Oreck) right next to a picture of the Leadnow Executive Director (Lyndsay Poaps) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The Vote Together process isn't looking at the riding and selecting the candidate in the lead, it's about forming a large group of people, deciding to vote the same way, and encouraging others to join you. With that in mind it's easy to see how they may not necessarily select the front runner if the race is tight.

It's very easy to imagine that Vote Together would appeal to a younger, tech savvy crowd that is more likely to vote NDP, and that the voting bloc would lean left.

No real need for conspiracy theories.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
For the record I think LeadNow and Vote Together is dumb and people in Vancouver Granville should vote for whoever they want.

I'm just a bit annoyed that seemingly no one is bothering to read the Vote Together website About page closely enough to learn that they aren't yet another strategic vote poll aggregator like 308.
 

Joeku

Member
Just rewatched Dear Zachary for the first time with a friend who had never seen it. If there's anything that makes me say "fuck the Canadian judiciary system" it's that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom