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[Razorskin]

Sweet sweet equalization payments, God love 'em.

 

[Mr.Mike]

There's no way that designing and building our fighter is cheaper or even equal in cost to buying F-35s. And any money extra that would be spent on such an endeavour would have been better put to use in building infrastructure.

 

[Divvy]

There's no way that designing and building out our fighter is cheaper or even equal in cost to buying F-358.

Well, a lot of the parts of the F-35 is being developed in Canada, and we do have a very strong aerospace industry. But yeah, someone would really need to crunch those numbers for this to not be a fantasy.

 

[Arthrus]

Why is Quebec so poor? I thought they were like Ontario.

The graph is a bit misleading in that respect because it shows gross contributions and not per capita. Quebec has a lot more people than those other provinces receiving payments. That said, I don't actually know the answer to your question and am also curious.

 

[Parch]

Of all the provinces that should be complaining about transfer payments, it should be Ontario since they have been the greatest contributor to it since forever. When it became eligible as a "have not" province due to the economic downturn of 2009, the rules were changed so that they received less than they would have under previous rules.

Of course, one of the biggest whiners of transfer payments prior to 2009 was Ontario itself, so let that be a lesson to those who are are "haves" that things can change at the drop of a hat and suddenly you might need the help.

Wouldn't that be because Ontario's GDP is less reliant on natural resources and therefore more volatile. While natural resource prices certainly fluctuate (as the oil industry certainly knows), natural resources are not going to suddenly dry up at the drop of a hat and suddenly throw a province into a have-not like Ontario did in 2009.

While Ontario is giving up 4.5 billion in equalization payments, they're getting $3.1 billion. Alberta is giving up $2.7 billion and getting nothing.

 

[gutter_trash]

Wouldn't that be because Ontario's GDP is less reliant on natural resources and therefore more volatile. While natural resource prices certainly fluctuate (as the oil industry certainly knows), natural resources are not going to suddenly dry up at the drop of a hat and suddenly throw a province into a have-not like Ontario did in 2009.

While Ontario is giving up 4.5 billion in equalization payments, they're getting $3.1 billion. Alberta is giving up $2.7 billion and getting nothing.

I think that the National Energy Program was a good idea. The good of the country comes before the good of a "province"

 

[Cynar]

Ontario is also by far the greatest contributor to the payments as well.

It's literally the same thing as rich people complaining that their money is going to help poor people

Yuppers. We should be helping the rest of our country if we can. As someone from Ontario I would love to see someone from the Atlantic getting help. Especially if that means they get jobs and don't have to work in the oil sands in Alberta away from their family. Equalization payments can help those provinces help themselves in the long run. Those against need to stop thinking short term. Shame on those who don't want to help other provinces and keep our country benefiting for all.

 

[cbox]

watching this got me excited

if we decided to go back and develop a new modern Avro Arrow Fighter Jet instead of purchasing the F 35

the NDP wanted to invest in our AreoSpace industry and the Liberals want to scrap the F 35

If only we decide to make Super Sonic jets again

I'd rather we pump money into alt energy tech, solar, wind than waste money on fighter jets. We had the bug back when the Arrow was being built, but that time is gone.

 

[Pedrito]

Why is Quebec so poor? I thought they were like Ontario.

The graph is a bit misleading in that respect because it shows gross contributions and not per capita. Quebec has a lot more people than those other provinces receiving payments. That said, I don't actually know the answer to your question and am also curious.

-Taxes are higher
-Salaries are lower because the cost of living is a bit lower and you have more social programs
-Other regions have big industries that prop up the numbers. Alb/Sask/NFLD have oil and gas; Ontario has Bay Street and real estate in Toronto; BC has its absurd real estate sector. Québec doesn't really have any of that.
-Everything east of Quebec City is pretty run down.
-History

Still, I wouldn't say that Québec is "so poor". At 44000$ per capita, its GDP is about on par with Sweden and Denmark.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Yuppers. We should be helping the rest of our country if we can. As someone from Ontario I would love to see someone from the Atlantic getting help. Especially if that means they get jobs and don't have to work in the oil sands in Alberta away from their family. Equalization payments can help those provinces help themselves in the long run. Those against need to stop thinking short term. Shame on those who don't want to help other provinces and keep our country benefiting for all.

Equalization is mostly intended to ensure Canadian provinces can offer similar levels of services at similar levels of taxation, no matter where you are in the country. It's what ensures NS high schools aren't being massively underfunded. It doesn't really help employment situation that much, other than to support relatively good paying provincial government jobs + the spinoff those create.

It's ACOA's job is to foster new economic opportunities + job growth as the regional economic development agency.

 

[Divvy]

Wouldn't that be because Ontario's GDP is less reliant on natural resources and therefore more volatile. While natural resource prices certainly fluctuate (as the oil industry certainly knows), natural resources are not going to suddenly dry up at the drop of a hat and suddenly throw a province into a have-not like Ontario did in 2009.

While Ontario is giving up 4.5 billion in equalization payments, they're getting $3.1 billion. Alberta is giving up $2.7 billion and getting nothing.

How are those fluctuations any different? Alberta is about to enter a recession because of it, and there have been 35000 oil jobs lost already within a year. I would argue the variables affecting the price of natural resources can be just as volatile if not more so.

Alberta is giving up nothing right now. But the nature of this system is not much different from any sort of national welfare system, the haves contributing more to help the have nots.

Keep in mind that the transfer payments are derived from revenue provided by taxpayers, in which I mean the lion's share of it is funded by the taxation of the rich. If you are poor in Alberta, you are contributing less than a wealthy person in PEI.

 

[Parch]

Well, a lot of the parts of the F-35 is being developed in Canada, and we do have a very strong aerospace industry. But yeah, someone would really need to crunch those numbers for this to not be a fantasy.

Canada's aerospace industry is mostly support for existing aircraft. It's not like previous decades where there were Canadian companies manufacturing aircraft.

Developing a new fighter aircraft would be starting from scratch. I shudder to think what that would cost, and I'm pretty sure that Canadians would not support that much federal funding to R&D a new fighter aircraft. It would have to be a private company with more than a Canadian market in mind. High cost and high risk in this day and age.

The glory days of Avro, Canadair, and De Havilland are history.

 

[Holmes]

People projecting their hopes and dreams onto Trudeau is really reminding me of when Obama was first elected in 2008.

 

[maharg]

People projecting their hopes and dreams onto Trudeau is really reminding me of when Obama was first elected in 2008.

Hopefully this ends with less drone warfare.

 

[firehawk12]

People projecting their hopes and dreams onto Trudeau is really reminding me of when Obama was first elected in 2008.

Yeah, it's kind of funny to watch.

Hopefully this ends with less drone warfare.

We still have no idea what fighter jet the military will be using in the future, so I'm sure Canada is decades behind on drones. lol

 

[pr0cs]

Perhaps many in Alberta and BC have forgotten the time when they were on the receiving end of those same payments. I'm sure everyone is always sick of paying taxes, but what keeps a very large and diverse country like Canada strong are those programs that help lift everyone.

I didn't look very hard but I couldn't find any data suggesting Alberta was ever accepting payments beyond what they put in.
I think most people in the Prairies are just tired of putting in more than their fair share but having their government being forced on them from the east.
I don't think a lot of people in the west truly thought Harper was a good leader but they felt that voting for him was the only way they could get some reasonable representation in Ottawa.
It's pretty clear Trudeau thinks nothing of the West.

I think that the National Energy Program was a good idea. The good of the country comes before the good of a "province"

Mention the NEP anywhere in the west and you're likely to get lynched.

 

[Lostconfused]

Yeah, it's kind of funny to watch.

Less funny when you are living in the country.

 

[maharg]

I didn't look very hard but I couldn't find any data suggesting Alberta was ever accepting payments beyond what they put in.
I think most people in the Prairies are just tired of putting in more than their fair share but having their government being forced on them from the east.
I don't think a lot of people in the west truly thought Harper was a good leader but they felt that voting for him was the only way they could get some reasonable representation in Ottawa.
It's pretty clear Trudeau thinks nothing of the West.


Mention the NEP anywhere in the west and you're likely to get lynched.

Transfer payments as an explicit thing are a relatively recent creation, but Alberta was almost certainly the beneficiary of more federal government aid than other parts of the country at several points in its history. Most notably the double whammy of the depression and the dustbowl, which hit the prairies (in both Canada and the US) particularly hard.

 

[Pedrito]

I didn't look very hard but I couldn't find any data suggesting Alberta was ever accepting payments beyond what they put in.
I think most people in the Prairies are just tired of putting in more than their fair share but having their government being forced on them from the east.
I don't think a lot of people in the west truly thought Harper was a good leader but they felt that voting for him was the only way they could get some reasonable representation in Ottawa.
It's pretty clear Trudeau thinks nothing of the West.

How so? He's lived in Vancouver for many years. Or is it not part of the West?

But seriously, what do you think will happen with Trudeau in power?
He's not gonna close the oil sand industry. He's not even against pipelines.
I don't really get this "doom and gloom" coming from Alberta since monday.

 

[Azih]

While Ontario is giving up 4.5 billion in equalization payments, they're getting $3.1 billion. Alberta is giving up $2.7 billion and getting nothing.

The graph says 'net' so I think what it's saying is that Ontario gave 7.6 billion and got 3.1 billion back (hence net contribution of 4.5 billion). That's why Quebec is negative. It sends money into the pot but it gets way more back.

Edit: Of course you need to do this per capita to be more fair. Ontario has a population 3 times larger than Alberta.

 

[Holmes]

Hopefully this ends with less drone warfare.

It's funny to see where Obama and Trudeau are different. Obama's against the Keystone Pipeline and for drones in Syria and the Middle East. Trudeau is for the Keystone Pipeline, but against drones. Both are for TPP though. :/

 

[gutter_trash]

these Western Alien tears are so delicious.

 

[pr0cs]

But seriously, what do you think will happen with Trudeau in power?
He's not gonna close the oil sand industry. He's not even against pipelines.
I don't really get this "doom and gloom" coming from Alberta since monday.

I presume the infamous French video is a sore spot. Personally I don't think he's terribly suited to the job but that's just my opinion. The oil industry here is basically in the toilet and I think people are terrified about raping what's left to fund eastern projects /plans.
I voted conservative not because I hated the Liberal plans, not because I had any love of Harper but because he seemed best suited to ensure that our province got representation we need.

 

[mo60]

Western separation has been dead for awhile now. There was some research poll about 10 years ago asking western Canadians their interest in exploring separation. It was something like 40% who said yes, so I imagine there still some talk about it. The little I know about the Cascadia plan was that it was an American idea that BC wanted nothing to do with. I don't know how serious that got.

I just suggested a rebirth based on how similar this election has divided the country like the 80's and 90's. I obviously don't speak for everybody, but Alberta basically thought Harper went batshit insane when he started acting like an American. They were ripe for change. Alberta already chose NDP provincially and them being the opposition party, Alberta was completely onboard with the NDP being the real change federally.

Then the NDP blew it and polls flipped and Albertans are thinking what now? Some go back to voting Conservatives because it'll be a cold day in hell when they vote Liberal. In the west there's a few NDP seats and few Liberal because they still wanted Harper out, but the big picture ended up being that it didn't matter how western Canada voted. Every single vote from the 4 western provinces didn't mean a damn thing because Quebec and Ontario had already decided that it was going to be a Liberal government.

So here we go again. It's the west having no say and eastern Canada picking a Liberal majority to once again decide how they're going to spend western wealth. It's a situation where I can see western separation rising from the ashes. For now it's hope for the best because it can't possibly be worse than the Harper shitfest, but the west remains highly skeptical that the Liberals will fairly spread the wealth. If not, in a few years that 50% + 1 for western separation might be a lot closer that people think.

BC decided the majority for the Liberals.

 

[Silexx]

Oh shit, now Gretzky is distancing himself from Harper. LOL

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/gretzky-says-appearance-at-harper-campaign-event-a-favour-for-the-pm/article26928858/

Wayne Gretzky says he was doing Stephen Harper “a favour” when he appeared with him at a campaign event, and the Great One says he would do the same for any prime minister.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

BC decided the majority for the Liberals.

Actually, the irony is, you can construct the argument to say Alberta decided the Liberal majority. Keep in mind that there were zero seats for the Liberals in Alberta in 2011.

32 Atlantic
40 Quebec
80 Ontario
17 BC

That's 169 seats, hair shy of 170. Add 4 from Alberta and you get 173 LOL.

I love how Albertan Conservatives think they represent the whole of the "West" (a word they keep using), let alone that they represent their whole province. I'm just going to chalk it up to bitter tears rather than legitimate grievances. They keep using numbers from the '70s to back up their 2015 feelings.

 

[killer rin]

So, someone already made a Trudeau Promise Tracker
https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/

Mathew, save this link so it can go in the new thread when we make it

 

[Divvy]

Actually, the irony is, you can construct the argument to say Alberta decided the Liberal majority. Keep in mind that there were zero seats for the Liberals in Alberta in 2011.

32 Atlantic
40 Quebec
80 Ontario
17 BC

That's 169 seats, hair shy of 170. Add 4 from Alberta and you get 173 LOL.

I love how Albertan Conservatives think they represent the whole of the "West" (a word they keep using), let alone that they represent their whole province. I'm just going to chalk it up to bitter tears rather than legitimate grievances. They keep using numbers from the '70s to back up their 2015 feelings.

Yeah, does the separated Alberta include the four ridings in Calgary and Edmonton that voted Liberal???

 

[PumpkinSpice]

So, someone already made a Trudeau Promise Tracker

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/

Cool, I was looking for something like this.

It's missing stuff though, it doesn't include their promises to improve family class immigration for one.

 

[SickBoy]

That non-partisan collaboration used the wrong spelling of "meter." :/

 

[TheRealTalker]

So, someone already made a Trudeau Promise Tracker
https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/

Mathew, save this link so it can go in the new thread when we make it

Ban partisan government ads.

End first-past-the-post voting system and explore alternative options.

Introduce a Prime Minister’s Question Period.

Empower the Speaker to challenge and sanction Members during Question Period, and allow more time for questions and answers.

Create the post of Chief Science Officer.

Consolidate government science so that it is easily available to the public at-large through a central portal.

Revoke rules and regulations that muzzle government scientists and allow them to speak freely about their work (with limited public exceptions).

Make Statistics Canada fully independent.

Amend the Access to Information Act so that all government data and information is made open by default in digital formats.

I want these implemented and hopefully they happen

 

[Parch]

I don't think a lot of people in the west truly thought Harper was a good leader but they felt that voting for him was the only way they could get some reasonable representation in Ottawa.

This is exactly correct. But bashing those who vote Conservative has been real trendy lately.

Of course Harper's government was a bloody mess. Myself and most everybody I know didn't vote for him and a lot of others were torn what to do. Westerners didn't want him, but when NDP is getting no support out east, we're supposed to submit and vote for the historically west-hating Liberals? Just shut up and get on board? It's just frustrating.

But we get called religious rural rednecks on par with lunatic Republicans, which is just ridiculously incorrect on every level. And then people wonder why westerners are frustrated, angry, and politically divided from the east. Sheesh.

Well that was a rant. No Blue Jays, so I think I'll go game some Forza for awhile. Politics isn't good for the blood pressure.

 

[gutter_trash]

That non-partisan collaboration used the wrong spelling of "meter." :/

Meter is American-English spelling, Metre is everywhere else English



http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/metre

 

[matthewwhatever]

I don't mean today, but soon it would be nice to at least get ballpark timelines for some of these campaign promises. I'm hoping certain things are higher on the priority list than others.

The Speech from the Throne! It'll be happening pretty soon -- not sure if Parliament will be recalled before Christmas, but if it's not, shortly thereafter.

So, someone already made a Trudeau Promise Tracker
https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/

Mathew, save this link so it can go in the new thread when we make it

Will do!

People projecting their hopes and dreams onto Trudeau is really reminding me of when Obama was first elected in 2008.

Key difference: Trudeau has much more leeway to pass his agenda. If he doesn't get stuff done, it can't be blamed on obstructionism. I think he'll do all the easy stuff -- pot legalization, scrapping the F-35s, etc. -- first, then move on to the more contentious issues.

 

[Divvy]

Meter is American-English spelling, Metre is everywhere else English



http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/metre

metre is for units of measurement

meter is for devices that measure things

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/meter

 

[SickBoy]

Meter is American-English spelling, Metre is everywhere else English



http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/metre

Read the entry you pasted. It's for the unit of measurement, not a measurement tool (such as a parking meter)

EDIT: beatened

 

[gutter_trash]

metre is for units of measurement

meter is for devices that measure things

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/meter

well I will be damned


Trudeau's most difficult promises to fulfill are the ones that require provinces to agree on and we know one stubborn Western Alien Province (Saskatchewan) who will be THAT obstructionist province this time around, especially when it comes to reducing emissions and anything to do with the environment

 

[DopeyFish]

I have a feeling most of the promises made by Trudeau will be kept within the first year

 

[Azih]

This is exactly correct. But bashing those who vote Conservative has been real trendy lately.

Of course Harper's government was a bloody mess. Myself and most everybody I know didn't vote for him and a lot of others were torn what to do. Westerners didn't want him, but when NDP is getting no support out east, we're supposed to submit and vote for the historically west-hating Liberals? Just shut up and get on board? It's just frustrating.

But we get called religious rural rednecks on par with lunatic Republicans, which is just ridiculously incorrect on every level. And then people wonder why westerners are frustrated, angry, and politically divided from the east. Sheesh.

Well that was a rant. No Blue Jays, so I think I'll go game some Forza for awhile. Politics isn't good for the blood pressure.

Really though, what did Cretien or Martin do to Alberta? (not the West cuz seriously).

 

[Divvy]

Of course Harper's government was a bloody mess. Myself and most everybody I know didn't vote for him and a lot of others were torn what to do. Westerners didn't want him, but when NDP is getting no support out east, we're supposed to submit and vote for the historically west-hating Liberals? Just shut up and get on board? It's just frustrating.

Realistically, what are examples of things Trudeau could do to allay those fears?

 

[gutter_trash]

Really though, what did Cretien or Martin do to Alberta? (not the West cuz seriously).

"for me pepper I put it on my plate, next"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWf2LLaHkM0

 

[AuthenticM]

Alright, serious question:

which provinces would oppose the closing of the Senate?

 

[Silexx]

Alright, serious question:

which provinces would oppose the closing of the Senate?

Quebec and Ontario.

 

[gutter_trash]

Alright, serious question:

which provinces would oppose the closing of the Senate?

Ontario, Quebec and almost all the Atlantic provinces

 

[Simon Belmont]

Quebec and Ontario.

It could pretty much just be Ontario and a no-go, right?

 

[Holmes]

Alright, serious question:

which provinces would oppose the closing of the Senate?

I think the public in pretty much every province would want to scrap it (except maybe some Atlantic ones?) but the leadership in every province is a different story.

 

[thefil]

While Ontario is giving up 4.5 billion in equalization payments, they're getting $3.1 billion. Alberta is giving up $2.7 billion and getting nothing.

That chart is net. Meaning if Ontario is getting 3.1, they are putting in 8.6.

 

[gutter_trash]

I think the public in pretty much every province would want to scrap it (except maybe some Atlantic ones?) but the leadership in every province is a different story.

both Premiers of Ontario and Quebec see it a gigantic barganing chip.

both say "wanna reform the Senate? for losing such a huge amount of senators, we will ask for this, that, this, that, this that"

 

[killer rin]

It could pretty much just be Ontario and a no-go, right?

When you have nearly 50% of the population, your voice has alot of sway

 

[Simon Belmont]

When you have nearly 50% of the population, your voice has alot of sway

Canada is such a bizarre country. You west coasters need to fatten up.