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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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What did he do?

According to The Star:

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau and, to a lesser extent, NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair have fallen in line with Stephen Harper’s support of the Israeli onslaught on Gaza. None questions the Israeli killing and maiming of hundreds of civilians, including women and children.

I'll defer to Azih on the rest of the details, though.

There is no doubt in my mind that low income Canadians would be better served by affordable daycare than the Liberal tax credit.

From Who's more progressive, the Liberals or the NDP?

On child care, the Liberals propose to combine and enlarge several tax benefits and credits advocated by the Conservatives. The result would be bigger cheques to families with children. This might not sound like a big deal, but the Liberals would also means-test the benefit, meaning lower income families get a lot more money. According to a Library of Parliament assessment, the Liberal plan would lift 315,000 children out of poverty – that is some serious redistribution. By contrast, the NDP promise a $15/day child care system, apparently modelled on the Quebec program. In one respect the universality of the program might make it less progressive than some might think (there is some evidence the well-off benefit disproportionately from Quebec’s system – and why should we be subsidizing child care for rich people anyway?), but the appeal among progressives for universal, low-cost day care, particularly in light of the costs of private care, is indisputable. Moreover, the NDP plan, in my view, is more likely to ensure women have one less disincentive to enter or return to the workforce. If only it were means-tested. Call this one a draw.

The one thing he doesn't mention, of course, is that the NDP don't explain how they'd pay for their plan. Simply saying that the provinces will agree to paying half the costs seems like some pretty serious handwaving.
 

Silexx

Member
This is kind of bullshit. The government has a limited amount of items it can prioritize and work on. The Conservatives wasted their time and effort (and our money) by going all in on a single, narrow economic policy ("moar pipelines") and writing "tough on crime" bills that were obviously going to be voided by the courts.

Certainly no Canadian government would have been able to do anything about the drop in prices, but a balanced approach to the economy could have yielded outcomes where there were other thriving industries people could move to.


Government can lay out policies to affect the long term, but it has little impact over the short term. That's why I think it is a bit ridiculous to lay all the blame at Harper's feet regard the current shortfall, but at the same time he doesn't deserve any of the credit for weathering the 2008 crisis as the ground work had been laid long before he got in.

Canada's shortcomings in the global economic market has always been it's risk aversion. Canada is the poster child for playing it safe. And this in of itself is a huge risk because we can find ourselves perpetually stagnant and we exert even less control over our economic fortunes even though we tell ourselves the opposite.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Completely agreed with Harper on everything:

https://www.liberal.ca/statement-liberal-party-canada-leader-justin-trudeau-situation-israel-gaza/

At the very least Mulcair asked to set up a ceasefire, it's not much but it's something:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...alls_in_line_with_harpers_stance_on_gaza.html

Here's the thing. Trudeau and Mulcair are both incredibly 'centrist'. At least the rest of Mulcair's freaking party pulls him to the left whereas Trudeau's party has a proven history of campaigning on the left and then governing from the right.

Absolutely pathetic. It seems the Green party is the only one with a reasonable and humane stance. I wish the elections were held last summer.
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
xDFrKA1.jpg
 

Azih

Member
Absolutely pathetic. It seems the Green party is the only one with a reasonable and humane stance. I wish the elections were held last summer.

I'd love to be able to vote Green as a protest vote and have that actually mean something rather than a big fat "lol whatever" in Mississauga.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
From Who's more progressive, the Liberals or the NDP?

On child care, the Liberals propose to combine and enlarge several tax benefits and credits advocated by the Conservatives. The result would be bigger cheques to families with children. This might not sound like a big deal, but the Liberals would also means-test the benefit, meaning lower income families get a lot more money. According to a Library of Parliament assessment, the Liberal plan would lift 315,000 children out of poverty – that is some serious redistribution. By contrast, the NDP promise a $15/day child care system, apparently modelled on the Quebec program. In one respect the universality of the program might make it less progressive than some might think (there is some evidence the well-off benefit disproportionately from Quebec’s system – and why should we be subsidizing child care for rich people anyway?), but the appeal among progressives for universal, low-cost day care, particularly in light of the costs of private care, is indisputable. Moreover, the NDP plan, in my view, is more likely to ensure women have one less disincentive to enter or return to the workforce. If only it were means-tested. Call this one a draw.

The one thing he doesn't mention, of course, is that the NDP don't explain how they'd pay for their plan. Simply saying that the provinces will agree to paying half the costs seems like some pretty serious handwaving.

If the Libs/NDP were to have a “who is more progressive” dick measuring contest, it shouldn’t be about “who soaks the rich more?” but rather “who helps the poor the most?” Going from the back of the envelope math in my last post, the NDP clearly come out on top on childcare, with a minimum wage earning single mom paying over twice as much for daycare under the Liberal plan than under the NDP plan. I wouldn’t call it “a draw” as this cited Macleans article does.

Asking how the NDP will pay for it is a very good point to raise. I think it would be difficult to get the provinces to sign on, but remember that the Federal NDP have a new government in Alberta that will be an ally, and NDP opposition parties in other provinces that can put pressure on their provinces to sign on. Remember that provinces are in competition with one another for talent and investment. I can imagine it would be hard for BC and Saskatchewan’s ruling governments to turn down cash from the feds for childcare, when their neighbour Alberta has already signed on.

Personally I like to see leaders with bold visions for a better future and that want to take on difficult challenges. The Liberal families plan seems easily achievable, which is great in that we’re likely to quickly see it implemented should they win, but bad in that it’s indicative of a lack of vision and an overly cautious government. I’ve been very disappointed with the cautiousness of other parts of the Liberal platform as well. Whereas the NDP promise proportional representation, the Liberals would study the idea. Whereas the NDP are clear that 1 additional cent of the gas tax would go to cities, the Liberals vaguely promise new funding for cities. I’d really wanted to see Trudeau go with a bigger vision this election.
 
Macleans just unveiled their Policy Face-Off Machine. It's more nuanced than isidewith, since it includes actual proposals from all the parties, but it also has a bit of a flaw, in that it occasionally pits two proposals from the same party against each other. You also don't get a fancy graphic at the end of it to share.

My results:

Liberal 67%
Green 58%
NDP 54%
CPC 30%


The only reason my Liberal score isn't higher is because there were times when I had to pick one of their proposals or the other, and that counted as rejecting the party. Likewise, there were a few times when I apparently chose between two NDP policies, which meant I scored higher with them because I agreed with one of their proposals. I'll note that I only picked CPC proposals when the alternative choice was a different CPC proposal (or when I picked increased funding for anti-drug operations over abolishing the Senate).
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
RE: The daycare discussion over the last few pages. The Martin Daycare plan was great and I kinda feel like any progressive attempt at dealing with daycare should probably start there. We had provincial buy-in. The Harper child care tax rebate thing is actually nonsense, one of the least sane policies he's enacted. I haven't read a lot into either current NDP or Liberal proposals on the subject, but I really do feel like if we want to work on childcare, we need only pick up where we left off before the last ten years happened.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
RE: The daycare discussion over the last few pages. The Martin Daycare plan was great and I kinda feel like any progressive attempt at dealing with daycare should probably start there. We had provincial buy-in. The Harper child care tax rebate thing is actually nonsense, one of the least sane policies he's enacted. I haven't read a lot into either current NDP or Liberal proposals on the subject, but I really do feel like if we want to work on childcare, we need only pick up where we left off before the last ten years happened.

How was the Martin daycare plan different from the current NDP one?
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
[...] I only started watching politics a few months ago [...]
I'm not surprised to read that. You seriously should take the time to learn more and look at the bigger picture before making huge and unproven claims like "Harper's cabinet is the most corrupt government in history" (they're disgusting, but they're far from being the only disgusting government we had) and "75% of Quebec's population is racist" (I seriously can't believe you wrote that seriously and thought you had a case).

Macleans just unveiled their Policy Face-Off Machine.

Thanks. Even if these little tests are often pretty basic, I enjoy them as they can give a quick overview of where you stand. Not too surprised by my results, even though I expected NPD to be higher than Liberal.

Bloc Québécois 73% (Here's indisputable proof I'm 73% racist!)
Liberal 44%
Green 37%
NDP 33%
Conservative 25%
 

Walpurgis

Banned
I'm not surprised to read that. You seriously should take the time to learn more and look at the bigger picture before making huge and unproven claims like "Harper's cabinet is the most corrupt government in history" (they're disgusting, but they're far from being the only disgusting government we had) and "75% of Quebec's population is racist" (I seriously can't believe you wrote that seriously and thought you had a case).

It seems that almost every time you post in this thread it is in response to me. If you want to discuss your insecurities we can go back here. Otherwise, I would prefer if you would stop watching this thread and waiting for me to slip up.
 

Kyuur

Member
Green 78%
NDP 60%
Liberal 54%
Conservative 18%

I'm definitely more of a strategic voting guy though, so it'll be NDP or Liberal for me. It'll be balanced out by my fiancee voting with her heart for Green (if we even have a candidate here).
 

Lexxism

Member
Out of 22 policies I picked, I got:

Liberal - 60
Green - 56
NDP - 53
Cons - 36

Not bad since I'm picking Liberal in my riding since they have more chance of winning than NDP.
 

Boogie

Member
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tom-mulcair-promises-250m-for-2-500-new-police-officers-1.3196461

Mulcair promised to work with the provinces, territories and First Nations to inject $250 million over the next four years into the renewed fund, followed by $100 million annually. He said the new officers locations will be assigned based on policing needs and will be decided after consultations with leaders at various levels of government across the country.

...

Mulcair said the government has failed to deliver on the promise.

"Despite Stephen Harper's tough-on-crime rhetoric, the number of police officers in Canada declined every year from 2010 to 2014," adding that Harper has "left Canadians at risk by cutting important police funding programs."


$250 million dollars for 2,500 new police officers >>> legislation of questionable value, and boutique announcements of $7 million more a year for this police program, $15 million more a year for that police program.


I know better than to take any politician's word when it comes to law enforcement commitments, but damn, Mulcair working hard to try and earn my first ever vote for the NDP....
 
Sorry if this has been addressed in the thread but has any party put forward a remedy for the ridiculous market stranglehold, unfair pricing and illegal business practices of Canadian isp providers?
Out west it's not so bad but southern ontario, it's an epic nightmare of anti consumer behavior, especially from Bell.
 

Dazzler

Member
Sorry if this has been addressed in the thread but has any party put forward a remedy for the ridiculous market stranglehold, unfair pricing and illegal business practices of Canadian isp providers?
Out west it's not so bad but southern ontario, it's an epic nightmare of anti consumer behavior, especially from Bell.

a little bit of competition in the airline market would be welcome too

throw those routes open
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Tom Mulcair defends praise for Margaret Thatcher's 'winds of liberty and liberalism'
Mulcair made the comments in April 2001 in the context of a parliamentary commission where he sought to discredit the interventionist tendencies of a separatist government led by Bernard Landry.

"A government should never pretend it can replace the private market. It does not work," Mulcair said in 2001. "It didn't work in England. Up until Thatcher's time, that's what they tried, the government stuck its nose everywhere."

On Wednesday, Mulcair defended his comments as an example of good public administration.

"My No. 1 priority is to get good services to the public," Mulcair said during an afternoon campaign stop in Surrey, B.C., on Wednesday.

"That hasn't changed and that's what that statement was about. Making sure that the public gets the best services possible."
Pretty useless non-answer. Well, I guess we know that his thoughts haven't changed. Still, he can't move freely as NDP leader so I'm not too concerned. I just don't think his right wing ideas are contributory to the NDP's recent popularity. I wish they chose Broadbent.

This made me lol.

@ygreck: Tom Tatcher
 
a little bit of competition in the airline market would be welcome too

throw those routes open
Canadian isp providers need to get with times. I'd like federal and provincial government to help make fibre optic service an industry standard in every major population center across the country. There's no excuse for our subpar service and outrageously high prices.
And we also need to make it illegal for companies like Bell, (who hold exclusive distribution rights in Canada to Hbo digital content) to force a cable subscription on anyone wanting to access their exclusive digital content.
Digital content should be available to everyone and without mandatory bell cable tv subscriptions being rammed down our throats.
We also need federal regulation on cell phone billing. Bell mobility is charging its customers in Saskatchewan (a reasonable) 25 dollars a month for 10 GB of date. That same data plan in Alberta? 80 dollars a month.
Don't get me wrong here:I'm not suggesting something is inherently wrong with region based pricing, but what Bell is doing is opportunistic thievery. And of course since they offer superior cell phone service to smaller service providers, they have a decisive advantage in the market place.
 

gabbo

Member
Canadian isp providers need to get with times. I'd like federal and provincial government to help make fibre optic service an industry standard in every major population center across the country. There's no excuse for our subpar service and outrageously high prices.
And we also need to make it illegal for companies like Bell, (who hold exclusive distribution rights in Canada to Hbo digital content) to force a cable subscription on anyone wanting to access their exclusive digital content.
Digital content should be available to everyone and without mandatory bell cable tv subscriptions being rammed down our throats.
We also need federal regulation on cell phone billing. Bell mobility is charging its customers in Saskatchewan (a reasonable) 25 dollars a month for 10 GB of date. That same data plan in Alberta? 80 dollars a month.
Don't get me wrong here:I'm not suggesting something is inherently wrong with region based pricing, but what Bell is doing is opportunistic thievery. And of course since they offer superior cell phone service to smaller service providers, they have a decisive advantage in the market place.

Bell has a plan with 10gb for only 80? That's a deal!
 
Tom Mulcair defends praise for Margaret Thatcher's 'winds of liberty and liberalism'

Pretty useless non-answer. Well, I guess we know that his thoughts haven't changed. Still, he can't move freely as NDP leader so I'm not too concerned. I just don't think his right wing ideas are contributory to the NDP's recent popularity. I wish they chose Broadbent

Hmm? Broadbent endorsed someone else because he was worried that Mulcair would take the party to the right, but they weren't up against each other.

Personally, I wish they'd gone with Cullen. So much more likeable.

Unrelated, but this has to be shared: Andrew Coyne on Sympathy for Harper -- imagine learning everyone you trusted lied to you:

I am beginning to think we have done Stephen Harper a disservice. No, I’m sure we have. In fact, I think we — and by we I mean the media, me included — have been grossly unfair to him, and never more so than in the matter of Mike Duffy’s expenses.

Imagine the sense of betrayal he must have felt — the vertigo, the nausea — as it slowly dawned on him that everything he had been led to believe about the whole affair was a lie: that in fact, everyone knew. Everyone, that is, but him. Imagine the humiliation, to have been played for a patsy in this way — him, Stephen Harper, Prime Minister of Canada — and what is more, for the whole world to know it. He is a proud man, but not immune to feelings of self-doubt. Would anyone respect him now? Could he carry on as leader, if he were not master even of his own office?

The whole thing is well worth reading. Coyne can be a little concern-trollish at times, but when he's scathing (see also: his Peter Mackay takedown) he's one of the best commentators in the country.
 

gabbo

Member

Walpurgis

Banned
Hmm? Broadbent endorsed someone else because he was worried that Mulcair would take the party to the right, but they weren't up against each other.

Personally, I wish they'd gone with Cullen. So much more likeable.
I mixed them up. I meant Brian Topp.
Unrelated, but this has to be shared: Andrew Coyne on Sympathy for Harper -- imagine learning everyone you trusted lied to you:





The whole thing is well worth reading. Coyne can be a little concern-trollish at times, but when he's scathing (see also: his Peter Mackay takedown) he's one of the best commentators in the country.
Wow, that was some expert trolling. For the Conservatives that are drinking that kool-aid, it paints him as weak and incompetent, and for people with reading comprehension, it paints him as the blatantly corrupt liar that he is. Nicely done.

This is an interesting comment below the article.
AnHonestGuy said:
When Andrew Coyne finally cuts into Harper and the Harper Conservatives like this with all guns ablazing, when generally Andrew Coyne usually holds back to some extent in criticizing the Harper Conservatives too much, you know that Harper must have pushed the limits of credibilty to a very extreme degree. With Coyne laying fully into Harper's and the Harper Conservative's credibility like this, it seems a strong sign that likely the polls coming out in the next few weeks are going to show a notable drop in support for the Harper Conservatives. Those small 'c' conservative Harper supporters and the many undecided voters who are not ethically challenged aren't likely going to be able to stomach what they have been seeing recently any more than Andrew Coyne can...
I hope he's right.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Yeah, I gotta say, I do not see Coyne as one to hold back on Harper or the CPC. If there's anything that might make it seem like he is/would, it'd be that I think he's a bit of a blue liberal.
 

Azih

Member
Coyne is a really conservative guy. But he's never drunk any sort of kool-aid or suffered fools gladly. He's a really great editorialist.

DID YOU KNOW: He's also a big supporter of PR!
 
Sorry if this has been addressed in the thread but has any party put forward a remedy for the ridiculous market stranglehold, unfair pricing and illegal business practices of Canadian isp providers?
Out west it's not so bad but southern ontario, it's an epic nightmare of anti consumer behavior, especially from Bell.

You will want to follow openmedia.ca leading up to the election. They are a public advocacy group for the telecom industry. They put together a nice compairson chart of where each party stands last federal election. The NDP had the most pro-consumer policy that election. So far, this election, I don't believe any party has stated anything.
 

Kifimbo

Member
Yeah, I gotta say, I do not see Coyne as one to hold back on Harper or the CPC. If there's anything that might make it seem like he is/would, it'd be that I think he's a bit of a blue liberal.

In the last election, he advised people to vote pour the Liberals.
 
Coyne is a really conservative guy. But he's never drunk any sort of kool-aid or suffered fools gladly. He's a really great editorialist.

DID YOU KNOW: He's also a big supporter of PR!

PR, you say? Tell me more!

As I said, sometimes he can be an obnoxious concern troll. But when he works himself into a lather over something -- or, like you said, when he encounters what he perceives as foolishness -- he's one of the best political writers in the country.

In the last election, he advised people to vote pour the Liberals.

Coyne encouraged people to vote Liberal last time around, but it wasn't exactly a glowing endorsement:

The Liberal platform, on the other hand, is more consistent, at least in economic policy terms: it is wrong-headed in every respect—higher spending, higher taxing, more meddlesome generally.
When it comes to taxes or regulations, it takes a long time for even the stupidest government policy—for example, the Liberals’ proposal to shower selected “Canadian Champion Sectors” with subsidies—to really harm the economy.
On democracy? Here the choice is starker—not because I invest any great hopes in the Liberals, but because the Tory record is so dreadful.
In punishing the government, do we risk punishing the country? No. Economies have enormous recuperative powers: as Adam Smith said, “there is a great deal of ruin in a nation.” We can afford a period of Liberal silliness. What we cannot afford is the continuing slide of Parliament, and parliamentary democracy, into disrepair.

He hasn't been a Harper supporter for some time, but he's generally been a pretty non-partisan conservative for at least as long.
 

Cake Boss

Banned
On another note, the Conservative government is still up to their usual antics:

Federal government employees warned not to talk bad about government on social media

Suck mah balls ahahahaha can't believe I missed this.

Work for a crown corporation now. eat shit harper. Can't touch this muhahahaha

All civil servants that I have worked with can't stand him, even the conservative ones. All he has done is cut the budget for civil servants resorting to departments relying on cheap temp casuals and students.
 
Macleans "Policy Face-Off Machine" reminds me of the NDP platform: irrelevant garbage.

I tried it yesterday and at times it pitted two issues agaisnt each other from the same party and me knowing it was from the same party, so I pressed skip on those. It was a shitty Quiz

I will be waiting for CBC's Voter Compass quiz which is superior than these flukey quizes from others

by the way: on Maclean's Policy Face-Off Machine: I am super Green LOL
 

Entropia

No One Remembers
NDP 67%
Green 65%
Conservative 54%
Liberal 44%

Though, as noted some of the choices were conflicting. i.e I had to choose opposing the keystone XL pipeline, or making Canada carbon neutral by 2100. I only did 21 policies.
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?

Azih

Member

Jinaar

Member
NDP - 60%
LIB - 58%
GRN - 57%
CON - 31%

Sticking with NDP. Let them get a round federally under their belt. Everyone gets a chance to play.
 
Hot of the presses. Paging gaboumafou.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/e...-cropla-presse-le-npd-domine-sans-partage.php

Quebec poll by CROP

NDP 47% (+11%)
LPC 20% (-2%)
BQ 17% (-8%)
CPC 13% (-1%)
OTH 3%

Among francophones

NDP 51%
BQ 19%
LPC 13%
CPC 12%

---

I haven't seen a bigger loser party than the Bloc tbh. They say they're against Energy East but what does their opinion matter? They will have no power, so their opinion makes no difference. Other than Energy East, I don't know of their purpose.
 

subrock

Member
NDP 67%
Green 65%
Conservative 54%
Liberal 44%

Though, as noted some of the choices were conflicting. i.e I had to choose opposing the keystone XL pipeline, or making Canada carbon neutral by 2100. I only did 21 policies.

I just skipped the ones where I hated both options. I wish there was a Do The Opposite button on some of them.
 

Silexx

Member
It's not a bad first step and could lead to more.
Much better than attempting to fill prisons with users

Decriminalization is a smoke screen. It does nothing to address waste of fund that are sunk into the war on drugs. Nor does it really make a dent in addressing overpopulated prisons. Most cops don't even bother with arresting for possession for personal use unless they suspect you of another crime.

There no reason that the road to legalization require a 'first step' with decriminalization.
 
Hot of the presses. Paging gaboumafou.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/e...-cropla-presse-le-npd-domine-sans-partage.php

Quebec poll by CROP

NDP 47% (+11%)
LPC 20% (-2%)
BQ 17% (-8%)
CPC 13% (-1%)
OTH 3%

Among francophones

NDP 51%
BQ 19%
LPC 13%
CPC 12%

---

I haven't seen a bigger loser party than the Bloc tbh. They say they're against Energy East but what does their opinion matter? They will have no power, so their opinion makes no difference. Other than Energy East, I don't know of their purpose.
0 seats for the Bloc is the most important part to be noted.

Do Canadians living in Quebec can finally vote for normal Federal parties in the future
 
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