• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Kifimbo

Member
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel the Liberals handed the election to the NPD today. This chart is the dumbest thing.

CNbY_t6WUAE5iyu.png
 
J

jstripes

Banned
Buba Big Guns said:
Hmm, I wasnt totally sold on Trudeau but he's making a very strong case now. I was gonna vote Lib anyway since its gonna be a tight race b/w the Cons in my riding.

I trust the Liberal financial team more than any other party. Really hoping Conservatives keep falling in the polls.
Click to expand...

I'm voting Liberal in my riding because they have a chance of toppling the Conservatives.

Prax said:
To be honest, Trudeau's campaign of a huge injection into infrastructure, even if it means deficits, sounded so promising..! I was excited that might happen!
Please help us fix and modernize the TTC, everyone!
Click to expand...

The federal government? Fix the TTC? They'll tepidly promise a subway in Mimico, which won't even get started before it's canceled.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
The only 3 things all the polls agree on are:

- NDP dominate Quebec
- CPC dominate Alberta
- LPC dominate Atlantic Canada

Most agree that the NDP are also leading by a wide margin in BC, but this one doesn't. And most have the NDP in 3rd in Ontario, but this one doesn't.
 
G

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
gutter_trash said:
If Gilles Duceppe starts to gain momentum in Laurier-Ste-Marie, I will vote NDP for you :p
Click to expand...

Simon Belmont said:
I'm voting NDP even though I'd prefer to vote Liberal because the Lib in my riding has no chance. I got your back, brother.

First election since I reached the age of majority that I won't be getting a lawn sign, though.
Click to expand...

*fist bump*

I don't mind voting for the Liberals, they were a close second to NDP in my books anyways.

Laevateinn said:
As an American, I find Canada's fear of deficits to be somewhat adorable. Shouldn't a modest deficit be considered a good thing since it spurs growth as long as it's not being wasted on things like tax breaks for the wealthy?
Click to expand...

I agree, balancing the budget is overrated. The way that the Conservatives have mishandled the deficits is totally inexcusable though. Eight straight years of deficits and what do we have to show for it? Nothing. At least the Liberals would spend public money on infrastructure and public transportation, which is sorely needed.

This Conservative government is absolutely terrible.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
Deficits to support infrastructure is good, deficits to cut taxes are not as good (though tax cuts to poor people also results in immediate spending, so is not as bad as tax cuts for the rich).
 
W

Willectro

Banned
TheGreatPotato said:
The only 3 things all the polls agree on are:

- NDP dominate Quebec
- CPC dominate Alberta
- LPC dominate Atlantic Canada

Most agree that the NDP are also leading by a wide margin in BC, but this one doesn't. And most have the NDP in 3rd in Ontario, but this one doesn't.
Click to expand...

NDP are going to get stomped in BC over their bonehead stance on Marijuana.
 
K

Kifimbo

Member
killer rin said:
Honestly, its about damn time someone paid legitimate attention to infrastructure. Under Harper we have fallen so far behind where we should be.
Click to expand...

That's not the point. First, a 10-year plan is ridiculous when a mandate last 4 years.Second, allocating equal amounts to each categories, for every single year, just prove they have absolutely no concrete plan, there was no reasoning, no evalutation of needs, no cost-benefit analysis.
 
L

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
The NDP only going so far as to decriminalize marijuana is a really odd decision considering they're supposed to be left of the Liberals. It's pretty much the only thing holding me back from getting behind the NDP 100% right now.

I feel like I need to add the disclaimer that I don't even do drugs, but it's embarrassing that America will probably legalize weed before us.
 
G

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Kifimbo said:
You really can't be serious.
Click to expand...

Even the Conservatives admit it themselves.

Amid criticism that it favours the wealthy and will saddle future governments with a tax leakage problem that could cost billions, Finance Minister Joe Oliver defended his budget's plan to almost double the TFSA limit on Tuesday, saying we should "leave that to Prime Minister Stephen Harper's granddaughter to solve."
Click to expand...
 
M

mo60

Member
Buba Big Guns said:
Hmm, I wasnt totally sold on Trudeau but he's making a very strong case now. I was gonna vote Lib anyway since its gonna be a tight race b/w the Cons in my riding.

I trust the Liberal financial team more than any other party. Really hoping Conservatives keep falling in the polls.
Click to expand...

Trudeau's pretty good actually. The NDP are slightly better than the Liberals I'm probably going to end up voting NDP because the NDP will be the ones that will be more popular than the liberals in the place I live in.The CPC will destroy both sadly were I live in terms of popular vote and seat count.
 
T

Tiktaalik

Member
This is a pretty good article that highlights a few of the problems with the Liberal Party’s big infrastructure plan.

The trick to Trudeau's $60B infrastructure fund will be finding things to spend it on

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has pledged to spend $60 billion more than the Conservatives on transit and green projects over the next 10 years — and admitted a government he led would probably run a deficit to do it.

“We will have additional announcements in support of these vital investments over the course of this campaign,” the party’s campaign document says, so expect photo-ops across the country offering specifics about things the Liberals would like to help pay for.

Trudeau might have more trouble with that than you’d think. But that’s a problem for later, once he and his party are in power.

Right away, Trudeau’s promise means he gets to trump Stephen Harper’s claim that the Conservatives have created the biggest and longest infrastructure program in Canadian history, which is both true and misleading. The Tories’ $53-billion “New Building Canada Fund” is so big precisely because it’s so long-lasting, promising less money each year than previous infrastructure programs but lasting more years. The Liberals would double the spending the Conservatives have promised.

This isn’t a stimulus program, Trudeau insisted in making the announcement in Oakville, Ont., Thursday — it’s “smart investments” to “build a strong economy.”

Whatever you want to call it, the plan is straight out of Kathleen Wynne’s Ontario playbook. Trudeau, like Wynne, argues the stalled economy needs a boost from government spending and that long-term investments in things like new bridges and subway lines will pay dividends well beyond their immediate costs. She calls it “building Ontario up,” and is borrowing to do it.

Trudeau likewise. He expects to run a deficit of $10 billion in each of the next two years and some unspecified but smaller amount in 2018. The Conservatives and New Democrats promise balanced budgets despite the damage the oil crash has done to the federal treasury, so there are some points for honesty on the Liberals’ part here.

The Liberals’ additional $60 billion would focus on transit projects, “green infrastructure” such as water-treatment plants and upgrades to resist climate-change-induced damage like floods and fires, and “social infrastructure” such as new subsidized housing and daycare centres.

There’s a two-step built into the plan, however. The extra Liberal money would go to things urban leftish voters like, but in the written version the Liberals say it would free up the billions in the existing Conservative program for “roads, bridges, transportation corridors, ports, and border gateways,” which are typically more appealing to suburban and rural voters.

The plan sucks up to Canadian cities and towns that have been demanding richer federal infrastructure programs for years (they got closest to what they wanted when Paul Martin was prime minister and have been pretty unhappy the last nine years) but it implies some pretty heavy spending by those municipalities and cash-strapped provincial governments, too.

That’s how most infrastructure spending works: costs are split among three levels of government. Not everything’s done that way (not on things the federal government owns, for instance), but if Prime Minister Trudeau wants to spend $60 billion, expect our governments collectively to spend something closer to $180 billion.

Municipalities are always happy to take federal and provincial cheques, but drastically increasing their capital budgets would mean drastically increasing their own borrowing.

Ottawa already figures it’ll be borrowing up to the limit of what it’s comfortable with to finance its light-rail plans over the next couple of decades, having increased its debt markedly for stimulus projects, the Lansdowne redevelopment and the first phase of rail over the last few years. Harper has already promised billions for full slates of transit projects here and in Toronto and Calgary; Vancouver voters rejected a small tax hike that their local leaders thought was the best way to pay for more transit there.

The Ontario government has a big long-term infrastructure program worked into its budget but not every province does. The Western provinces, beaten up by the oil bust, are trying to spend a lot less than they have been.

The Liberals have given themselves an out: Money they don’t spend each year will just get transferred to municipalities via existing gas-tax payments. So the cash will go out the door one way or the other.

But there’s also the problem that once you’ve built something, you have to operate and maintain it. Light rail in Ottawa will move a lot more people than buses do, but it’ll also be more expensive to run. New social-housing units mean more ongoing rent subsidies. Build a new daycare and you need people to work in it. The feds can show up with their great big novelty cheques, but the provinces and cities will get to pay the bills that come in later, as they’re well aware.

It could actually be difficult to find twice as many things Canada’s cities are willing to build between now and 2025. It’s certainly not clear that the stuff they find to buy, with the second $60 billion they might get, will be as economically useful as what they spend the first $60 billion on.

But between now and Oct. 19, the promise gives Trudeau a big number to throw around and a lot of dreams local candidates can promise to fulfil.
Click to expand...

Essentially there are two big problems.
1. Municipal and Provincial governments may need to contribute funding.
2. There’s no plan for the increased operating costs resulting from the new infrastructure.

Issue #1 is a big deal. In Vancouver we recently saw a massive transit plan with funding set aside from the Provincial government fall apart because Metro Vancouver couldn’t afford their share, and local voters rejected a new local sales tax that was designed to raise the funds. Municipalities are really, really poor. They receive just 8 cents for every tax dollar. Projects that rely on municipal government contribution may struggle to get off the ground.

Operating costs are a big problem as well. If you expand transit, you now have to pay extra to run the new line and do maintenance. Again, municipal governments are very poor. It very well might be the case that cities would turn down infrastructure because they wouldn’t be able to afford to maintain it without dramatically increasing property taxes.

All of this is why I really like the NDP plan of giving an additional 1 cent of the gas tax to municipalities. It doesn’t seem at first like it raises a lot of money, it’s only about $420 million (Toronto’s share is ~$90M of this), but it is steady, annual money that cities automatically receive with no hoops to jump through. They don’t have to apply for any programs to get it. They just get it, and so they can depend on it for their annual budget planning. This funding method gets around the above two issues. This idea was initially advocated by Jack Layton, who was a Toronto City Councillor, so you know he knew what was best for cities.

The Liberal plan has the idea that unused funds will flow into the gas tax to cities, which is a superb idea that I really like. Of course at this point it’s impossible to say whether that’d be a dependable source of steady revenue or not as it depends on extra money being available each year.

For infrastructure funding going forward I’d really like to see politicians take the gas tax route, but of course with this method they don’t get the opportunity to pose with giant novelty cheques and do shovels in the dirt photo-ops.
 
C

catpurrcat

Member
Prax said:
To be honest, Trudeau's campaign of a huge injection into infrastructure, even if it means deficits, sounded so promising..! I was excited that might happen!
Please help us fix and modernize the TTC, everyone!

Also in general, the Liberals ran a strong financial record in the past, so I trust them to make the right choices on that matter. Having the conservatives fall on their faces into 3rd place would be the cherry on top.
Click to expand...

You make a solid point about modernization. Tech improvements to existing infrastructure would be awesome and so cost effective. And would actually happen!!!!!

Electronic fare systems, new signals, bigger sewer pipes, longer buses, upgraded hvac.

Better than unkept promises for grand projects.
 
M

massivekettle

Member
GSG Flash said:
*fist bump*

I don't mind voting for the Liberals, they were a close second to NDP in my books anyways.



I agree, balancing the budget is overrated. The way that the Conservatives have mishandled the deficits is totally inexcusable though. Eight straight years of deficits and what do we have to show for it? Nothing. At least the Liberals would spend public money on infrastructure and public transportation, which is sorely needed.

This Conservative government is absolutely terrible.
Click to expand...

They've governed through one of the roughest patch in history. Not convinced anyone else would have done better, certainly not the NDP under Layton/Mulcair.

PoliGAF Canada seems to have it in for the CPC so that's par for the course. Fortunately, there are millions of voters out there who are sensible.
 
T

TheRealTalker

Banned
we need to modernize our transportation network throughout the country

how likely is it to create a highspeed rail between Montreal,Ottawa, and Toronto?
 
S

SRG01

Member
Laevateinn said:
As an American, I find Canada's fear of deficits to be somewhat adorable. Shouldn't a modest deficit be considered a good thing since it spurs growth as long as it's not being wasted on things like tax breaks for the wealthy?
Click to expand...

The reason why deficits are scary for some Canadians is because we went through a credit downgrade back in the 80s/early 90s because of our growing inability to pay back our deficit. Or, to put it another way, deficits and debt are bad when there's insufficient growth.

All in all, Trudeau is campaigning from an interesting angle. The Conservatives can't outright say that growth is bad -- because that's exactly what the stimulus program will give. Instead, they along with the NDP attack on balanced budgets because that's all they can promise.

ksharp said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Chretien was exonerated and Martin had nothing to do with it and actually called hearings on it.

ksharp said:
They've governed through one of the roughest patch in history. Not convinced anyone else would have done better, certainly not the NDP under Layton/Mulcair.

PoliGAF Canada seems to have it in for the CPC so that's par for the course. Fortunately, there are millions of voters out there who are sensible.
Click to expand...

The CPC didn't govern anything; they never act unless it's politically expedient to do so. From defense to aboriginal affairs to the Canadian Action Plan. There are books upon books about Harper's style of government.

TheGreatPotato said:
Deficits to support infrastructure is good, deficits to cut taxes are not as good (though tax cuts to poor people also results in immediate spending, so is not as bad as tax cuts for the rich).
Click to expand...

Exactly. Tax cuts create structural deficits and are often harder to roll back when stimulus isn't required anymore.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
ksharp said:
They've governed through one of the roughest patch in history. Not convinced anyone else would have done better, certainly not the NDP under Layton/Mulcair.

PoliGAF Canada seems to have it in for the CPC so that's par for the course. Fortunately, there are millions of voters out there who are sensible.
Click to expand...

I think that Martin could have done better, that Ignatieff could have done better, that Rae could have done better and that Dion could have done better. Mind you, we're not going to get very far unless we define what better means.

If you mean, deal with the economy, I think we simply don't know yet. Economist after economist points out that governments have very little noticeable impact on the economy within their term. You typically see the payoff well after they have left office, so we'll see. I think that it is pretty clear that cutting the most efficient form of raising revenue, a consumption tax, is pretty dumb and that the TFSAs will have a big impact, but the former is only going to be seen in the next ten years and the latter in the next 30 (should the program survive).

If you mean, deal with the environment, oh cripes, let's not even try to make that argument.

Do you mean govern well? As in carry out their duties, build strong relationships with partners, and lead the nation? Ignoring executive appointments, diminishing international support, and refusing First Ministers conferences doesn't impress me. Neither does crippling Stats Can. You can't control what you can't measure - it's super-simple.

I could go into his style of governance, his focus on further concentrating power in the PMO, the secrecy or the scandals of the Senate, the F-35s, robocalls, or the CFIA. But that's well travelled ground.

The man is a political travesty. His party is politically unsophisticated. To my point. They're fantastic at PR and small p politics though.

Here's the thing. I hate the Liberals. Cretien's smugness, Martin's paternalism, and the entire Trudeau legacy crap. Cannot stand it. I voted Progressive Conservative, I voted Alliance, and I have voted Conservative. This guy though and his small-minded, blatantly power-hungry and grasping politics... I just can't. To hell with them and their entitlement. They're worse than the Liberals ever were and promised the exact opposite. To hell with them.
 
T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
ksharp said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal
Click to expand...

LOL, you do know that Chretien was proven innocent, right?

Meanwhile Harper is as dirty as the rest of his inner circle and continues to lie about it. You must be joking.

Edit: What governing exactly did the Harper government do? We're in a recession for crying outloud and you're just repeating talking points instead of actually looking at and doing some critical thing about the issues. So far you have added little to the discussion here except to accuse "PoliGaf of having it in for the Conservatives". The Conservatives have only themselves to blame for the mess they've created.
 
J

jstripes

Banned
TheRealTalker said:
heard about this

such a shame really.... but the times have changed and we have become more efficient in railways throughout the world so we need to try again
Click to expand...

It's not gonna be easy. First, they have to grade-separate all those crossings. That alone will cost billions. There's still plenty of GO Train crossings in Toronto that aren't grade separated.

Nothing ruins high-speed trains, or even regular trains, like an impatient shithead in an SUV.
 
G

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
ksharp said:
They've governed through one of the roughest patch in history. Not convinced anyone else would have done better, certainly not the NDP under Layton/Mulcair.

PoliGAF Canada seems to have it in for the CPC so that's par for the course. Fortunately, there are millions of voters out there who are sensible.
Click to expand...

Not sure if serious....

My baby cousin could have guided Canada better than Harper did, and he didn't fuck it up further because of the rules set in place by the Liberals before him.

His solution to literally every economic problem is oil. Well we're seeing the result of what happens when oil starts to take a hit, it's all it takes to bring this fragile economy, that Harper has built, to its knees.

And yes, we have it in for Harper for good reasons. We're not picking on the Conservatives for shits and giggles, they're literally destroying this country from the inside out, whether that's in the shape of taking away our rights, muzzling scientists, making us bankrupt as a nation, taking away social programs, destroying the environment, supporting shitty foreign governments and policies etc.

I'd say the millions you are describing are delusional, while millions more are finally coming to their senses and seeing Harper and the Conservatives for what they truly are.
 
T

TheRealTalker

Banned
jstripes said:
It's not gonna be easy. First, they have to grade-separate all those crossings. That alone will cost billions. There's still plenty of GO Train crossings in Toronto that aren't grade separated.

Nothing ruins high-speed trains, or even regular trains, like an impatient shithead in an SUV.
Click to expand...
indeed it seems they'd have to redirect a ton of stuff
it is possible but relative to other countries I doubt we will be able to not go over the budget :/

Still with the times moving ahead the lack of modern connected efficient city networks are becoming embarrassing for this country.... A country I may add that has a deep history in railways

Every country is going high-speed and a country like ours doesn't even want to try again

-------------------------------
Edit: On another note this laughing in the Harper Rally is cringe-worthy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHEX4LifR9A
feels beyond forced
 
M

massivekettle

Member
TheRealTalker said:
we need to modernize our transportation network throughout the country

how likely is it to create a highspeed rail between Montreal,Ottawa, and Toronto?
Click to expand...

Extremely unlikely unless it's part of a wider North American network (Toronto-Chicago, Montreal-Boston-NY, etc.). There just isn't enough demand, otherwise.

EDIT: our country is not dense enough for us to have high speed rail and other "efficient" ways to connect cities. Best way is to have regional networks like Northwest (Vancouver, Seattle, Portland), Northeast (NY, BOS, WASH, PHI, TOR, MTL), Midwest, etc. and so on. And even then, this would cost a pretty penny and wouldn't necessarily be more efficient given the distances.


TheOMan said:
LOL, you do know that Chretien was proven innocent, right?

Meanwhile Harper is as dirty as the rest of his inner circle and continues to lie about it. You must be joking.

Edit: What governing exactly did the Harper government do? We're in a recession for crying outloud and you're just repeating talking points instead of actually looking at and doing some critical thing about the issues. So far you have added little to the discussion here except to accuse "PoliGaf of having it in for the Conservatives". The Conservatives have only themselves to blame for the mess they've created.
Click to expand...

I still have a hard time thinking that Martin and Chretien were 100% innocent. Regardless, corruption is rampant which I guess was my point.

Again, CPC shouldn't be blamed for the "recession". Canada has always been a commodity-driven economy, even under the Chretien years. Not sure why the CPC should be blamed for, effectively, China's and the Brent's woes.
 
J

jstripes

Banned
TheRealTalker said:
indeed it seems they'd have to redirect a ton of stuff
it is possible but relative to other countries I doubt we will be able to not go over the budget :/

Still with the times moving ahead the lack of modern connected efficient city networks are becoming embarrassing for this country.... A country I may add that has a deep history in railways

Every country is going high-speed and a country like ours doesn't even want to try again

-------------------------------
Edit: On another note this laughing in the Harper Rally is cringe-worthy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHEX4LifR9A
feels beyond forced
Click to expand...

I would love high-speed rail in Canada.

But the predominant problem is that we exist in the American sphere of influence.

Cars = Personal Freedom

As long as we think like the Americans, we're going to be stuck. Trust me, I live in the city that had to, and still has to, deal with Ford Nation. The most American of all Canadian political movements.
 
C

Cake Boss

Banned
ksharp said:
They've governed through one of the roughest patch in history. Not convinced anyone else would have done better, certainly not the NDP under Layton/Mulcair.

PoliGAF Canada seems to have it in for the CPC so that's par for the course. Fortunately, there are millions of voters out there who are sensible.
Click to expand...

Lmaooo hahahahah

Sensible voter hahaha

Eat my shit, motherfucker wants to kick me out of my own country and drove a surplus to a deficit is governing now??
 
T

TheRealTalker

Banned
jstripes said:
I would love high-speed rail in Canada.

But the predominant problem is that we exist in the American sphere of influence.

Cars = Personal Freedom

As long as we think like the Americans, we're going to be stuck. Trust me, I live in the city that had to, and still has to, deal with Ford Nation. The most American of all Canadian political movements.
Click to expand...
hopefully with more metro networks and pedestrian pathway in city cores people find the befits of public transport and tone away from car idolizing

Us Canadians aren't Americans we shouldn't try and chase some American ideals and views since us Canadians work differently... our small population relative to our spaced out main cities and big country means that we need to find ways to interconnect our country in more ways then one

fixing our infrastructure and evolving it to the next step is needed..... hopefully one day :(
 
M

MikeyB

Member
ksharp said:
Not sure why the CPC should be blamed for, effectively, China's and the Brent's woes.
Click to expand...
  • Stephen Harper has managed to turn 10 consecutive federal budget surpluses of the Martin-Chretien era into 7 straight consecutive deficits.
  • nder Stephen Harper, household debt has exploded. The average household debt-to-income ratio (i.e., the amount of debt the average Canadian household owes for every dollar of their annual disposable income) has risen from $1.31 to $1.64
  • A significant contributor to household debt can be traced to rising housing prices. Mr. Harper's finance minister, Jim Flaherty, helped fuel the housing bubble with his irresponsible introduction of 40-year mortgages with zero down-payment.
  • the guy was pushing financial deregulation until the crash, then claimed victory for a system he had been actively dismantling.
 
R

ryan-ts

Member
Not only has there been economic issues under Harper, but we've seen an attempt from the Conservatives to move backwards on established social stances. Shit like bill c-24, their views on Insite, excessive controlling of information pertaining to the government, etc. are socially regressive.

I want to live in a Canada that strives for progress in all aspects of life.
 
A

Annubis

Member
ryan-ts said:
Not only has there been economic issues under Harper, but we've seen an attempt from the Conservatives to move backwards on established social stances. Shit like bill c-24, their views on Insite, excessive controlling of information pertaining to the government, etc. are socially regressive.

I want to live in a Canada that strives for progress in all aspects of life.
Click to expand...

You forgot muzzling scientists.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
Politics... be always careful what you wish for.
4
962
TehDark replied
  • Locked
[TNYT] Brazil Blocks X After Musk Ignores Court Orders
Social News Community 2
69
5K
ManaByte replied
Satya Nadella: Annual letter to stockholders. Content on new platforms will continue
4 5 6 7 8
352
21K
noob smokes replied
Ontario General Election 2018 |OT|
4
851
bloodydrake replied
Jacinda Ardern is next prime minister of New Zealand (after 9 years of right wing)
2 3
114
17K
30yearsofhurt replied
Top Bottom