peanutbutterlatte
Member
The ideals of HYDRA in WS sound very much like the ideals of the Soviet Union at a particular time, so I don't think it'd be too hard to work it in there somewhere.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Captain America: The Winter Soldier SPOILER THREAD | ...does anyone want to get out?
- Thread starter Replicant
- Start date
I guess if you wanted to make up an explanation for why the west would call him the winter soldier in MCU, could be something to do with wintering i.e. dude just disappears completely for long periods of time. But the truth is that he is called that because comics.
I love Cap, don't get me wrong. But...I don't think Cap would survive a fight with MC, especially not in his armor.
Master Chief had the body of an 18 year old top-tier olympic athlete when he was a preteen (and had a genius level intellect) and could easily defeat the best human soldiers...when he was a child. He was part of a group of people that were genetically superior before even being experimented on. Combine all of that with being trained as an elite soldier since he was a child...he was born as a perfect human and made to be perfect soldier and leader.
After being experimented on he had his own large array of physical improvements as well as cybernetic enhancements that multiplied his physical and mental prowess. On top of that they had the toughest armor/exoskeleton that multiplied his strength, speed, agility, and reflexes greatly. Then on top of that you have a shield that deflects projectiles...and then on top of that he has a neural link to a smart AI that gives him supreme tactical awareness and increases his combat reflexes exponentially.
Even without the AI and the reflective shield, Master Chief would run straight at Steven Rogers (being stronger and faster) - shrugging off arms fire and just knock the shield out of his hands/or just swat it away and literally punch his entire head off of his body.
If John fought Steve without any of their additional armor or weapons the fight would be a tough one to be sure. Though due to the fact John was trained from birth to be the best soldier that ever lived (superior tactician) AND has a physical and mental edge, I would give him a sizeable edge over Cap. It's just not as close as people would like to think.
It's not a pissing contest that one guy is better than the other, they have a ton in common but they come from different universes and time periods. Cap was the result of 1940's WWII era science and the MC was the result of being an evolved human with science from an instellar/warp drive capable humanity of the 2500's.
demosthenes
Member
Saw it again today. Liked it even more. Heard the strange name drop this time 
OMG! Why have I not knew this!?went to see Winter Soldier in theater for the first time.... all i gotta say is.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq2_YKQGE_U
EDIT: also i just realized, crossbones is still alive.... GASP! will he get his mask in cap 3!?!?!?
It's like the sleeper hit of expected hits.
GraveHorizon
poop meter feature creep
Saw it for a second time on Tuesday, in 3D this time. Brought my Captain America frisbee shield, and literally cheered at all the cool parts
. It was just as good the second time, and I enjoyed knowing what everyone was talking about. Sam WIlson was even cooler knowing he would become Falcon; his conversation with CAp in the veteran's building was awesome, because I now knew he was referring to flying with jet wings.
Cap 2 shits all over every Marvel movie that isn't Iron Man 1. I don't care for Robert Downey Jr. as much as everyone else, so it might be even better. It's certainly more hype since they're actually doing shit throughout, the story matters, and it isn't an origin film.
because my girlfriend and I were the only people in the theater at 10pm on a Tuesday night
Cap 2 shits all over every Marvel movie that isn't Iron Man 1. I don't care for Robert Downey Jr. as much as everyone else, so it might be even better. It's certainly more hype since they're actually doing shit throughout, the story matters, and it isn't an origin film.
Manmademan
Member
There was a whole thread about cap vs chief that went on for hundreds of replies that dismantles that entire argument. Read the thread, it's fun. But some highlights
1.) Caps reaction time and footspeed are faster than MC. The serum boosted both to superhuman levels. 60mph on foot sustained for miles, and able to dodge bullets with ease because he "sees faster" than is humanly possible. His strength is left deliberately vague but is estimated somewhere in the 1 to 10 ton range. Cap is more than capable of hanging with USAgent and Spiderman in physical combat, both of whom are at or over that strength level. Rogers also has greatly enhanced durability and nigh infinite stamina, as his body generates no fatigue poisons.
Cap's cognitive abilities also got a boost. As a tactician Steve has out strategized not only Ultron on several occasions, but also defeated the Kree Supreme intelligence at least twice. Cortana is not on the level of those two and will not be out strategizing Steve Rogers.
2.) Cap's shield nulls out physical impact as well as energy. Chief isn't "knocking" it anywhere. It will go right through shields and armor, and has turned Tony's suit into scrap. Cap also has an energy based backup shield mounted in his gauntlet that behaves the same way, but can be launched offensively as a projectile.
3.) Cap is the more experienced of the two. 10 plus years in the ww2 era fighting Nazis and teamed with the invaders, 15 years or so in the marvel present leading the Avengers which included victory in at least three intergalactic conflicts (kree/skrull war, galactic storm, infinity) and 10 years in dimension Z fighting solo against an army of Arnim Zolas gamma enhanced super mutants. All of that was at his physical and mental peak, since cap does not age.
4.) Massive skill gap between the two. Cap mastered every fighting style that existed BEFORE getting frozen in ww2. Since then he's risen to the level of top 3 h2h combatants on the planet, and the other two (iron fist, shang chi) have both lost to him in combat thanks to Rogers' superior physical abilities. Cap routinely uses his superior fighting skills to absolutely dismantle stronger opponents. Namor is vastly stronger than MC is, and Steve has handed him multiple losses. More examples are in that thread.
5.) Marvel science is light years ahead of Halo and it's not close. WW2 era marvel had sentient, superhuman flying androids. Ultron was invented in the 1960s. 20th century marvel has advanced genetic engineering and cloning, long range teleportation, time travel, intergalactic starships, solar orbital platforms, weapons that can literally shatter planets to dust in seconds and Tony stark is busy constructing a Dyson sphere as we speak. Earth is so advanced at this point that none of the intelligent empires will attempt to invade or attack it. Even so, when Thanos tried in "infinity" because he thought the Avengers were gone, Manhattan and wakanda were able to beat back and wipe out a significant chunk of that invading surprise attack in a matter of minutes using tech. An army of Spartan 2s would be dust in the same situation, they're nowhere close to being on the same tier. The mjolnir armor is somewhere on the level of one of Starks original suits from the 60s, if that. They're joke tier in current day marvel- SHIELD deploys sentinels now as standard operating procedure.
I won't say its a stomp, but there is literally nothing MC can bring to the table that Rogers hasn't beaten before with ease.
Alcoremortis
Member
Manmademan
Member
And a very long thread about the video, yeah.
matrix-cat
Member
Master Chief wouldn't even beat Cap in a t-shirt wearing contest.
MC is more grounded in reality vs. Marvel which is basically science magic. Captain America would probably do some good hand to hand with Superman and Satan at the same time, the plot armor is so strong.
Manmademan
Member
None of the feats listed for MC are anywhere close to grounded in reality. A preteen taking out multiple grown special forces soldiers at the same time because he's just "that good?" Surviving a fall from orbit because your armor is just crazy awesome? A superintelligent AI that has a habit of hanging out dressed like a naked woman?
Let's not kid ourselves. This is all pulp sci fi, not Shakespeare.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
It sounds like the Russians still found him and were involved somehow. When they show someone approaching Bucky in the snow you can see he's wearing Russian clothing and Bucky speaks Russian on the bridge.
Re: Widow
I think they'll further explain Bucky and Widow's connection in the next movie, I do think she was intentionally keeping that secret from Cap throughout the film.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
well in teh comics red skull/ hydra/thule society were infiltrating russia as a well. Indeed they could've been inside the Russian gov as well. It wasn't just SHIELD in teh comics it was the government as well that was infiltrated by Hydra all the way up to the senate, house and executive branch. In TWS yes Bucky was a Russian agent made by Russia and deployed on missions for some secret branch that slips my mind, im assuming not much different than the place that made the black widows. Honestly Winter Solider has an ongoing that has this even more explained,....you may or may not want to read they might use more of that material in the future.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yeah I think like Zola it was one of those things that was intentionally left vague/open so they can explain further, especially if they give Bucky his own movie.
Which is why I can never take the expanded universe stuff for Halo seriously, it is so thoroughly masturbatory and not in line with how the game itself is played. Obviously mechanics have some leeway, but the way they describe MC in the books in completely at odds with everything you see him do in the games in both cutscene and gameplay. There is nothing in game that even remotely approaches how he would act and what he could do, if you take the books face value.
And he used russian slugs, and the star on his arm. They really should have spelt it out more though, help give Hydra that international omph and also potentially shed more light on what exactly Black Widow meant by being unmade (Avengers).
nope
I know the context for the picture, but I'm not sure how it demonstrates that he hasn't lost a step compared to his earlier incarnations. I had the impression from reading threads that talk about his feats that a lot of his most impressive feats were Silver Age-ish - the obscure hammer abilities, feats like containing that bomb that was supposed to wipe out a fifth of the universe, etc. I've only read Simonson, though, and what I read wasn't particularly impressive in terms of showings. Great comic, though.
I'm hoping you can explain what I'm missing here!
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
he can't thors been fucking ridiculous from the beginning its more of a situation that writers had YET to do things. The only obvious time period was when thor was struck down to half power by Odin. He was fighting celestials decades ago.
Wait - Thor can go toe to toe with a celestial?
Calamari41
41 > 38
That doesn't really bother me at all. I mean, what, was Crossbones a pirate before getting burned? It's just a cool code name, and Winter Soldier is a really, really cool name even if you don't know any backstory. It implies a lot.
Also I guess the cryo thing works, too.
To be fair, he was also only known to his handlers. Widow says he's at best just a rumor to everybody else.
EDIT:
Yeah, ok, I take it all back. This is the explanation, and makes the most sense. For those who don't want to look it up, it is a play on Paine's "Summer Soldier" insult, meaning of course the opposite.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
Asgardians are full of it, they make enchanted weapons give each other their powers, there was an instance where odin convinced the other skyfathers to join up and fight the celestial host. They lost and the celestials made them promise to leave mortals alone.
lol If MC was grounded in reality he would have been liquified in his armor upon crashing from orbital freefall.
Same here. I honestly thought I was going to overhype myself but it lived beyond that. I wanna check it out for a third time in 3 weeks lol.
Manmademan
Member
I'm on my phone, so I'll have to be more brief than I would like.
That particular arc was really good for a number of reasons, but one thing that it did was establish that Thor for whatever reason was the most powerful god
there was. Thor has always been powerful, but marvel has never quite come out and demonstrated that Thor is top dog in QUITE that way before.
When I get home, scans for everyone! Because Godbomb is just so fun
Mister Wilhelm
Member
I have no idea how you could have possibly fallen asleep during half of it.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Seems to be the most popular MCU film around these parts.
I like it as an origin story but it doesn't really stick out to me as being a better film than any of the others I enjoy. The First Avenger and The Winter Soldier are both better movies if you ask me.
But that's just like, my opinion man.
Yeah, the one behind the gate was interesting about how it made Chinese reviewers on forums ask introspective questions like, "Why there couldn't be Captian China?" and "Why aren't masculine heroes like Ip Man in Chinese movies anymore?"
Alcoremortis
Member
I enjoyed Iron Man, but it really bugs me that I honestly can't figure out what Obadiah's game plan was at the end. I mean, how was he going to explain to the press/police why dressing up in a giant robot suit and chasing down his secretary in it was the only available course of action?
It's just a fun movie. RDJ's performance is iconic and single-handedly put a b-list character on the map as a billion-dollar property. Paltrow also makes for a nice foil and it's probably their best dynamic together, before they became more self-aware and overly quippy in the sequels. It's also actually pretty good looking, cinematography-wise, for the MCU.
It's not a major spectacle, but it's a cool character movie that hit all the right notes and broke some new ground in significant ways.
Asgardians are full of it, they make enchanted weapons give each other their powers, there was an instance where odin convinced the other skyfathers to join up and fight the celestial host. They lost and the celestials made them promise to leave mortals alone.
Why is Thor fighting Isaac Clarke?
And that is a weak ass excuse when people were given the opportunity to write fanwank after the fact. They are the equivalent of a one armed thor killing Hulk and the Sentry. If the developers had intended Chief to have anywhere near the capabilities that the books ascribe, then the game would have had even the faintest of Crysis like mechanics.
I loved Iron Man since forever but used to hate Tony (well, except his 60s cartoon version). Iron Man 1 gave me a pretty good movie, well executed origin story, fun character dynamics, exciting action, godlike suit up sequence and armor design (still my fav), and to top it off RDJ made me care about the character.
You can argue the last third is a bit underwhelming with a short, unispired fight, but the movie had won me over by then with the adventurous feel and cool tech that I didn't mind it. It was about the birth of a character more than it was about the struggle with a subpar rogue, which is to say only Stane inside the suit because his character was great before that point.
For me, it is probably the only MCU I can rewatch endlessly. It's just so fun.
You can argue the last third is a bit underwhelming with a short, unispired fight, but the movie had won me over by then with the adventurous feel and cool tech that I didn't mind it. It was about the birth of a character more than it was about the struggle with a subpar rogue, which is to say only Stane inside the suit because his character was great before that point.
For me, it is probably the only MCU I can rewatch endlessly. It's just so fun.
Liquidsnake
Banned
1.Iron man 1
2.Winter Soldier.
Everything else Marvel.
2.Winter Soldier.
Everything else Marvel.
Yes please!
Eh aside from some confusion, most people arguing for Cap stuck with 616.
Nope. Most if not all was on base of the 616 universe.
Not really, some people were using examples from the Ultimate universe. "A lot of", was from 616, but that doesn't mean all was from 616.
Anyway it doesn't matter, since when it comes to comic there really isn't a "limit" on the technological levels of the universe. Just what ever the writers can come up with.
An Xbox is absolutely capable of creating a game with Crisis like powers, just not at the fidelity of Crisis with the same scope. I stand by the fanwank comment because even when the games had opportunities to show off these supposed level of skills, they never did, even in cutscenes where they could completely author what the player was seeing.
Is this a serious question? Willful ignorance? I mean, of course people like it. It's the movie that is singularly responsible for RDJ's renaissance, making him one of the biggest movie stars on the planet, it legitimized Marvel Studios and its success is the reason that six years later we are posting in a thread about a highly successful, critically well received sequel to a Captain America movie. None of that happened because people didn't like Iron Man.
Stop trying to reason with the internet.