veryslowhand
Banned
so, nothing?
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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
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ClosingADoor
Member
I don't get it. He is talking about solving the conflict. But at the same time he says they deserved the right to gain independence. But that is the conflict. You are not getting a solution if you stand by that idea.
His Majesty
Banned
Puigdemont is really naive if he thinks Rajoy and Spain will do anything other than bite off his hand.
Psyrgery ES
Member
It's declared, but has been put on hold for some weeks so that he can negotiate with Spain.
Protip: He will get nothing
ClosingADoor
Member
He also said the parliament still needs to vote on it right?
But it seems everyone is confused about what is actually going to happen still. This is so strange.
His Majesty
Banned
lame and confusing speech
Rajoy must be very happy. He'll probably fuck it up by sending the storm troopers in the parliament.
Rajoy must be very happy. He'll probably fuck it up by sending the storm troopers in the parliament.
I think he said undo the after 48hs declaration of independence of the referendum bill to have talks
TheRealTalker
Banned
so basically he want to go to the negotiation table, not for independence per say but as a bargaining chip to gain more self autonomy
They're frankly fucked. Businesses are moving as fast as they can and Puigdemont can't herd his own folks together because he's desperately reliant on the anarcho-independent party to hold onto power.
Psyrgery ES
Member
Nope.
He said that he is legitimated by their self-approved law (which violates the spanish constituos) and that by the results of their ilegal and half-assed referendum, that he is obligated to comply those laws and has declaed the UDI.
Only to suspend it for some weeks to negoatiate with Spain.
Oh boy.
I've seen the police cars going hella fast to the parliament
I believe they are on their way.
It's the perfect storm of two indencent men
ClosingADoor
Member
I think at this moment Spain just needs to lean back and say: well, explain what you want then with this dialogue. Because it doesn't seem Catalonia itself knows at the moment.
Thanks, the translation to English was a bit unclear on the speech.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Oh shit
I mean he kinda backtracked in the last minute, plus the speach was hella boring
Psyrgery ES
Member
Unconfirmed, the source is twitter, saw these same vans posted by different people at different points of Barcelona
https://twitter.com/EsteGuillermo/status/917802152189485056
Time to party!
https://twitter.com/EsteGuillermo/status/917802152189485056
Time to party!
Green Yoshi
Member
So he's just a populist like Wilders, Strache and Le Pen? Much talking but they never achieve anything.
The Spanish regime is incapable of diplomacy here, so yes its really about reaffirming who the irresponsible party is (Spain) and why an eventual UDI is required to protect Catalans from their misgovernance.
His Majesty
Banned
lolol Rajoy just can't help himself
Why the fuck would they? A US President would not condone any kind of independent movement in the US. Nor would the French tolderate the Alsace or any other separatist movement.
Psyrgery ES
Member
That's arguable.
Puigdemon never wanted to negotiate, his negotiation had "obligations that could not be argued".
They approved illegal laws. They disobeyed Spain and ignored Europe.
They don't even have most of the votes. The have like 48%, and the referendum gathered 2.200.000 out of 5.500.000 total voters.
You don't keep a majority of an autonomous community hostage, because you will look like a tirant.
Yeah, PP is mostly guilty of this, but don't even try to make Spain the main guilty here because you are wrong.
The catalan citizens are split, and this damage won't be cured that easy.
Also, banks and busisness are fleeing to Spain, so good luck with impoverishing your cititzens.
I will do my part to allow being taken ransom by some psychopatch
His Majesty
Banned
When 80% of people in a region are in favour of a referendum for independence, that should at the very least give you something to think about.
Rajoy's strategy has been to completely ignore the issue, refuse all diplomacy and talks about more autonomy and let the wound rot and fester.
I mean of course I don't mean talk about giving the independence, but there's has to be talking between both govs, or we will never get out of here.
curi0usBystander
Member
I honestly didn't expect that reversal. I thought he'd make an ambigous declaration.
And yet Westminster happily allowed Holyrood to consult Scots.
If your state is so pathetic in its appeal to a nation within it that potentially a majority wish to leave... why not let them? There is nothing *inherently* good about Spain that justifies its existence or jurisdiction.
veryslowhand
Banned
now that there is not going to be independence they will try to get some political rent out of all of this I guess
The Scots didn't first made a referendum on their own and against the law. Nor declared independence when they didn't have the votes.
His Majesty
Banned
Because the UK didn't force them to make such a controversial decision.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This is going to be a real mess no matter what Puigdemont says. Anyway, I think I still have time for another post.
The more I look at her career as a major, the more I think she's been way over her head this whole time.
But Rajoy is an imbecile prone to deal with major issues by waiting them to go away and acting rashly when they don't. Even if the international community remains firmly on Spain's side, he managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in terms of PR and allowed the separatists to set the tone of the conversation. They were literally expecting that and Rajoy obliged.
JxSÍ only obtained 39.5% of the votes. They are only in power because of the CUP.
They didn't even want a referendum in the first place. As a matter of fact, they wanted to do away without one if possible. It was only when they didn't get the amount of votes they desired that they devised a deeply flawed referendum as as means to an end. After that, Puigdemont refused an invitation from the Spanish government to explain his referendum at the Congress, his excuse being that he wanted to negotiate the terms before that (knowing fully well that: a) his plan would be shredded on live TV, and b) negotiating a separatist referendum with no previous Congressional oversight would ruin Rajoy even in an alternate dimension in which he agreed to it).
JxSÍ's biggest accomplishment is to convince foreign spectators that they care about the will of the Catalonian people.
The notion of Madrid curb stomping Catalonia's identity and economy in totalitarian style defies law, reality and logic.
The most insulting thing about the referendum is that the economy never deserved a passing mention, unlike in Scotland. And then JxSÍ started twitching. Everything was going to be fine, because the EU would welcome Catalonia as its newest junior member and companies would never move away with haste because the so-called "disconnection" laws weren't a huge disaster in the making due to the complete disregard towards the concept of legal certainty, as pointed out by no legal experts since day one.
Anybody not blinded by sheer nationalism could see that this was going to happen, specially given the Quebec precedent. But the separatist camp claimed that banks would love this new, prosperous and independent Catalonia, a great place to make business... despite not having the closest thing to an embryonary legal framework and being the closest thing to a sunnier version of Transnitria in terms of law and finances. They sold the most reprehensible lies to the public and ended up believing their own hype. Now it's time to face the music.
As it stands now, JxSÍ is a coalition of parties with different views towards independence. A good part of CDC is getting a bad case of vertigo over the UDI, while ERC is pushing hard towards it. Meanwhile, CUP acts like an external driving force, setting the tone with their unrivalled ability to make a ruckus (even of they are on the other side of the spectrum, I'd compare CUP to the UKIP in the sense that they are pretty far out in terms of ideology and voter share, yet overtly nationalist and disproportionately influential due to the perceived weaknesses of JxSÍ). In a way, CDC has become a hostage of itself and its partners, both internal and external. ERC is not in a much better position. They are not embroiled in scandals like CDC or the former CiU, but they are very much for independence and they have reached the perceived point of no return; quitting at this point could spell disaster. All there is left for JxSÍ is a rush forward.
CDC (and later JxSÍ) saw that there was growing resentment among the public and baited it hard in order to profit from it in different ways. ERC wanted independence, CDC wanted to bury their scandals. The Spanish government, meanwhile, was happy enough about it. Being corrupt and extremely short sighted, the PP was more than pleased to have a new target in order to divert the attention from their own countless scandals, reacting harshly at every turn instead of trying to defuse the situation while ahead. This fed into the nationalist cycle, creating more separatists and reinforcing JxSÍ's position.
And here we are now.
Oh well, I'm afraid I carried myself away. Let's enjoy the farce now.
Edit:
Ada Colau continues to earn my contempt with her fake equidistance, saying that "seditious" and "separatist" are loaded words instead of descriptive ones (hint: we are talking about the government of a region in declared rebellion against the state) yet telling the metropolitan police to stand down and facilitate an illegal act. Her repeated attempts to seduce the separatist left are not being unnoticed and her latest attempt to fall back before shit hits the fan not only paints her as a huge hypocrite, but is already having the separatist camp using it against her.
The more I look at her career as a major, the more I think she's been way over her head this whole time.
As far as I know the act of voting is not illegal. The referendum is a whole different thing. That's the point where Rajoy lost the thread. The intelligent thing would have been to allow it to happen, discredit it right after the fact (being illegal, offering no guarantees and basically being labelled as worthless by the very own delegation of observers invited by the separatists) and then prosecute those responsible, elevating the charges to sedition and rebellion if it came to it. There's precedence in Europe. This is more or less how Italy dealt with the Lega Nord and her Padanian referendum in 1997.
But Rajoy is an imbecile prone to deal with major issues by waiting them to go away and acting rashly when they don't. Even if the international community remains firmly on Spain's side, he managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in terms of PR and allowed the separatists to set the tone of the conversation. They were literally expecting that and Rajoy obliged.
Separatist parties claim that they tried to make it work within the Spanish legality and that they tried to approach the government, leaving them with a surely won flawed referendum as the only solution. But that's a bald faced lie. Junts pel si (JxSÍ, Puigdemont's party) declared that they would start the state-building process necessary to create "an independent Catalonian state in the form of a Republic" right away if they obtained a majority of separatist votes during the 2015 elections. The party literally attempted to turn a regional election into a state-building one. No referendum required. This is not a journalistic interpretation: those are actual words expressing what was literally the first point of the party's platform for the 2015 election. We even had a GAF thread back then.
JxSÍ only obtained 39.5% of the votes. They are only in power because of the CUP.
They didn't even want a referendum in the first place. As a matter of fact, they wanted to do away without one if possible. It was only when they didn't get the amount of votes they desired that they devised a deeply flawed referendum as as means to an end. After that, Puigdemont refused an invitation from the Spanish government to explain his referendum at the Congress, his excuse being that he wanted to negotiate the terms before that (knowing fully well that: a) his plan would be shredded on live TV, and b) negotiating a separatist referendum with no previous Congressional oversight would ruin Rajoy even in an alternate dimension in which he agreed to it).
JxSÍ's biggest accomplishment is to convince foreign spectators that they care about the will of the Catalonian people.
This is a funny question, because the regional police (Mossos) being armed and already taking part in the separatist cause allows the Spanish government to elaborate an accusation of rebellion if a Mosso dares to get a gun out of their holster during a confrontation. This is another legal tidbit that everybody is ignoring, probably for the better.
That is simply untrue. Spain recognises the historical and cultural identity of both Catalonia and the Basque Country, enables the protection of their languages through various means and provides them with a larger degree of freedom than other regions. Further, the Spanish government invests large amounts of money in them in the form of infrastructure projects, fixed tenders and international promotion. Catalonia was bailed out during the crisis and Madrid's safe bet for the European Medicines Agency was killed off in favour of Barcelona, which will probably lose it due to recent events.
The notion of Madrid curb stomping Catalonia's identity and economy in totalitarian style defies law, reality and logic.
Do you know what also go both ways? Tariffs.
The most insulting thing about the referendum is that the economy never deserved a passing mention, unlike in Scotland. And then JxSÍ started twitching. Everything was going to be fine, because the EU would welcome Catalonia as its newest junior member and companies would never move away with haste because the so-called "disconnection" laws weren't a huge disaster in the making due to the complete disregard towards the concept of legal certainty, as pointed out by no legal experts since day one.
This is the kind of attitude that breeds nationalists out of spite.
I'm going to be really, really shocked if there's not a huge purge of Mossos when everything is said and done.
Actually, companies were demanding that law, CaixaBank being at the forefront. The issue here is that Catalonia's independence won't happen because for that it'd have to be recognized, which is not going to be the case. Spain wants none of that and the EU would never sacrify Spain's membership for Catalonia's, let alone provide a huge boost to other nationalist movements. But Puigdemont could try to do something extremely stupid such as trying to enforce new laws, creating a situation of legal uncertainty. Companies hate that. Banks, for example, which were the first to move their registered offices away from Catalonia, could be cut out from the European Central Bank. Banks were also facing huge pressure from stock holders and clients. Santander stocks were hit pretty hard and a significant amount of clients have been either closing down accounts in Catalonian banks out of fear or moving their savings from Catalonian offices to other branches. I'm a Santander client. I'm a business owner/self-employed person and Santander is a bank that has made an important effort to cater the needs of small companies such as mine's. Last week I was at my local office and there were a number of clients either removing their savings or closing down their accounts. Santander has been facing an incredible amount of pressure due to this absurd nationalistic pantomime, so it had the actual obligation to re-register elsewhere in order to protect their stockholders and clients. Same with Caixa. Same with pretty much any other company.
Anybody not blinded by sheer nationalism could see that this was going to happen, specially given the Quebec precedent. But the separatist camp claimed that banks would love this new, prosperous and independent Catalonia, a great place to make business... despite not having the closest thing to an embryonary legal framework and being the closest thing to a sunnier version of Transnitria in terms of law and finances. They sold the most reprehensible lies to the public and ended up believing their own hype. Now it's time to face the music.
I vehemently disagree with this assessment. The political rush towards independence happened when the coalition formed between CDC and UDC (CiU for those reading this from afar) became mortally embroiled in multiple corruption scandals and CDC's leader (Artur Mas) hurled the coalition towards the soberanist path, creating a lot of frictions. The CDC then held a party referendum that was won by the separatist side by a tiny margin, prompting the split with UDC. As part of CiU, CDC never pushed hard towards independence, preferring instead their largely unshaken dominance and comfy position, closing deals and taking bribes while negotiating more devolved powers with Madrid every few years. The new paradigm meant that CDC, socially conservative and economically liberal, had to negotiate terms with the left wing and much more ideologically driven ERC if it wanted to survive. This gave way to a bizarre, barely sustainable marriage that became further complicated after they failed to obtain a parliamentary majority and their push towards independence required the support of the CUP, Communist and fairly radical about it.
As it stands now, JxSÍ is a coalition of parties with different views towards independence. A good part of CDC is getting a bad case of vertigo over the UDI, while ERC is pushing hard towards it. Meanwhile, CUP acts like an external driving force, setting the tone with their unrivalled ability to make a ruckus (even of they are on the other side of the spectrum, I'd compare CUP to the UKIP in the sense that they are pretty far out in terms of ideology and voter share, yet overtly nationalist and disproportionately influential due to the perceived weaknesses of JxSÍ). In a way, CDC has become a hostage of itself and its partners, both internal and external. ERC is not in a much better position. They are not embroiled in scandals like CDC or the former CiU, but they are very much for independence and they have reached the perceived point of no return; quitting at this point could spell disaster. All there is left for JxSÍ is a rush forward.
CDC (and later JxSÍ) saw that there was growing resentment among the public and baited it hard in order to profit from it in different ways. ERC wanted independence, CDC wanted to bury their scandals. The Spanish government, meanwhile, was happy enough about it. Being corrupt and extremely short sighted, the PP was more than pleased to have a new target in order to divert the attention from their own countless scandals, reacting harshly at every turn instead of trying to defuse the situation while ahead. This fed into the nationalist cycle, creating more separatists and reinforcing JxSÍ's position.
And here we are now.
Source that.
I don't need to spend a solid minute to find dozens of articles about chants of "long live Terra Lliure" and "Terra Lliure kill them all" at pro-independence rallies. A terrorist group that for a brief period of time became ETA-lite. I need even less time to find articles about anti-independence politicians and intellectuals receiving death threats, and I'm not talking about Twitter trolls. And then there's the ugly, ugly underbelly of Catalonian ethnonationalism with its often ignored but well represented vitriolic attitudes towards everything that sounds Castillian or Andalusian. But that probably deserves a different post. Pointing out Spain's own radicals while ignoring that there's no shortage of hate-filled individuals amongst the separatists side is the height of hypocrisy.
Oh well, I'm afraid I carried myself away. Let's enjoy the farce now.
Edit:
Because SNP went the proper way about it. There are 2 dumb sides in this story.
Edit: plus Rajoy has the perfect excuse that he can't break the Constitution.
Psyrgery ES
Member
Basically everything Funky Papa said is 100% spot on.
intheinbetween
Member
As expected, they played their (best) card last 1-O but it wasnt enough. Companies fleeing from Catalonia to other cities made them realize this was never a smart decision, but Im afraid the damage is already done, it will take years to fix this.
EDIT: Completely agree with Funky Papa
EDIT: Completely agree with Funky Papa
Psyrgery ES
Member
And Rajoy just secured the next elections with a crushing majority.
Unless he fucks up (wich I am sure he will) and sends Puigdemont to prison.
I got the feeling that they were backing down when they postponed the speech, but this... it's amazing. Completely irresponsible. It literally kicks the can down the road and resolves absolutely nothing, which will leave Catalonia trapped in this highly toxic uncertainty for God knows how long. Typical modern "leader". All talk, no sense of responsibility.
Wouldn't that be something? That's all this farce needs now - black-clad stormtroopers knocking down doors yelling "nobody expects the Spanish fascism!" for no reason whatsoever.
Wouldn't that be something? That's all this farce needs now - black-clad stormtroopers knocking down doors yelling "nobody expects the Spanish fascism!" for no reason whatsoever.
Psyrgery ES
Member
And Catalonia loosing businesses and economic stability is loosing credibility day after day.
The GDP has decreased by quite a margin over the last week, and Madrid is now the autonomous community with the highest GDP.
I am catalan and I am scared shitless of the things to come.
God have mercy.
EDIT.: Oh, and this process has generated a sick hatred towards independent catalans from Spain. There is a movement calling for boycotting any products made in Catalonia.
That is, we have not had any orders from Spain (only one order) since October the 1st.
This is going to hurt in the near future.
I fear this is what will happen. And I think the independentists knows it too (hence another move to make them look as victims).
curi0usBystander
Member
LOL, the internet is indeed fast.
I'm on the same bote. But let's see how this plays out.
This truly is history in the making.
#2017bestyearofmylife #mememagic #pleasekillme
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I liked Ines Arrimadas' speech.
Help.
Help.
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