I believe you, the fact that they withhold diplomas is enough of a hint.
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Chicago: Can't graduate High School unless you have a Job or are going to College
- Thread starter bigkrev
- Start date
I believe you, the fact that they withhold diplomas is enough of a hint.
No one answers why it has to be NEGATIVE reinforcement, why isn't the law "offer students help for post school life"?
instead "dance a useless jig for us or we will fuck you up"
I agree its not the school's business what a kid does after graduation, but it is the business of the state. If the state deems they have a problem with kids not having a plan after high school, then they are well within their rights to try to solve the problem at a point where they think it starts.
This isnt Some backwater Mississippi county. Rahm is only in his position, in large part, because black residents voted for him. If he chooses to screw black people over it will be to his, and his party's, detriment.
Actually barriers= opportunities. Please vote for the Democratic party
Mammoth Jones
Member
"The state has the right" has always been an interesting phrase when used to fuck over black people. And it's been used repeatedly for a very long time throughout history.
This doesn't help anyone. It only hurts, it will hurt black students specifically. You might be in the position to be so indifferent and willing to roll the dice and let rham give it a shot, im not.
Again I would agree with being weary of the state if it wasn't Rahm and the city of Chicago. Maybe naively, I trust that he has the best interest at heart for the children a large segment of the population who voted for him. I am willing to support him giving this a try.
Any positive results will be a win for Democrats and Black people. It would also be a slap in the face of Trump who thinks he will be the one who "Solves" chicago.
Exactly. Even if it "succeeds," it will only be by extracting money from a disproportionate number of black people. For-profit colleges, which already count on minorities to prop up their business (read Tressie McMillan-Cottom's Lower Ed for more on that), are licking their chops at the chance to prey on new clients.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
I get it, I really get it. The idea of this on paper seems.... promising. However, this should never made it off the table.
Laieon
Member
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like this is a good thing in the long run. I do think their should be a few more options (Peace Corps would be a nice one, maybe even an option to right an essay or something if you have an unconventional plan that could potentially get you approved for graduation), but stressing the importance of "Hey, your life is starting now, you should probably have a plan" is not a bad thing at all.
I guess this is just one of those things I'm not going to see eye to eye with most people on GAF with though.
Not only are vocational training rarely mentioned, but when they are they're usually vilified or made out to be "lesser" than the college route.
Sohter.Nura
Member
Oh wonderful, spend your time right after graduating 10 years of school either flipping burgers at mcdonald's or preparing to get in debt for college ^.^
Forget about taking some time to discover yourself or figuring out what you wanna do. Maybe travel? Fuck no ^.^
It's a pipeline ^.^
Forget about taking some time to discover yourself or figuring out what you wanna do. Maybe travel? Fuck no ^.^
It's a pipeline ^.^
Mammoth Jones
Member
You act like democrat policy and political indifference hasn't decimated black communities before....
Sorry but "It's rham we voted for him!" doesn't magically make this good policy. Fuck trust. Explain how this policy helps kids in Chicago. Particularly black kids that already have the odds stacked against them to graduate.
I want you to put you trust aside and explain how this helps black students in Chicago. Because I have explained how it hurts them greatly and you seem to completely ignore that in favor of blind trust in Rham. I do not understand that.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
I can't wait for the inevitable recession and hundreds of thousands of kids are robbed of their diplomas because of this shit.
The Rahm Obama kicked to the curb because he tried to get Obama to forget about ACA
David H Wong
Banned
No one here is reading up on the details and what they're promising to do to support and facilitate this, this is another knee-jerk reaction thing. People can't get over this urge to use headlines to fuel an outrage adrenaline rush vs actually becoming informed in some way. I mean, can we at least take five minutes to try to understand the problem they're trying to solve, and why they chose to do it this way?
It's the same as conservative forums going apeshit over some headline about solar power. "UH, WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN IT'S NIGHT TIME, MORONS?!??!" as if nobody behind the policy ever considered that. Can we give them some tiny amount of credit? Well, no, not if the goal is to get a quick outrage fix.
Mammoth Jones
Member
You don't stop someone from graduating because they don't have a state approved plan. If the kids God the grades mind your business.
You don't want to offer free lunch
You don't want to help his father get a job with a criminal record for drugs
You don't want to bring trade certifications back to high schools.
You don't want to properly fund "certain" schools
You don't want to offer updated quality books for students
But somehow,,someway NOT giving a child that passes their class their diploma HELPS them? What kinda 1984 doublespeak is this?
We're not dogs that need a benevolent liberal to tell us what's best for us. To drag us kicking and screaming to our destiny. We have explained in excruciating detail exactly what can be done and how to fix those schools. Politicians just don't want to invest in it.
It helps them because it gives them a chance to set up a plan when they graduate instead of being allowed to drift through a system, which was set up to fail them, the way kids have in the past.
I am not ignoring it as much as I don't agree that this will hurt black kids. If a kid doesnt have a plan then they are not hurt by this at all because the result is the same without a piece of paper that is absolutely useless without a plan in the modern economy.
If Rahm fucks us with this, then we know where we are. We can evaluate our policy if it gets to that point though. The plan looks solid to me.
Mammoth Jones
Member
You don't withhold a degree because you insist we plan to your satisfaction. The state doesn't own us.
Do you have to pay an application fee when applying to community college?
The day after HS graduation, can a student withdraw from community college and face no monetary loss or penalty?
To me, it still seems somewhat awful to hold someone's diploma that they earned hostage ...but if they can get around it this way, without having to spend any money, it's not AS bad as I thought when I read the thread title. It's still shit though.
spazchicken
Member
Another reason to leave Chicago?
Or people know about Chicago's fuckery and rightfully concerned
Mammoth Jones
Member
It's disgusting on principle and I guarantee once they do this they'll tweak the rule in a few years. No. Don't punish students. Give them fucking help without bullshit conditions.
Withhold a diploma helps black students? Thats a lie and anyone claiming otherwise doesn't think much of Black children.
The problem they're trying to solve is the same,e one they created in the first place. Wanna fix It? Add the support. Don't even need to withhold a diploma. Just add the God damned support.
Zoe
Member
Somehow I think the ones who are able to just fart around doing nothing after high school in order to "figure things out" aren't the ones who would be negatively affected by this
They are starting off from a place of punishment for kids that succeed. Am I crazy no one else sees that?
As bad as this is, the district won't follow through. Even the quote in the OP has them hedging. They won't deny students their diploma and that's as certain as knowing they won't fully fund education either. The district can't bridge a 40% gap, especially without any funding to see it through.
BudokaiMR2
Member
While I do agree that this could go wrong very fast, it seems clear in the article that this is an effort to at least stem some of the issues that are caused by poor funding instead of just waiting around for money that probably isn't going to come.
It's not like they are nixing some of those programs to fund this new one.
The biggest worry I have with a program like this is how effective it will be at funneling graduates into the armed services. I sincerely doubt any Principal will risk their job by outright denying students graduation, but their easiest solution for impoverished kids would be funneling them into the military which is pretty fucked up.
gutter_trash
Banned
what did Obama ever see in this Emmanuel guy?
Try not paying any taxes and see what happens to you. The state does, quite bluntly, own us lol.
I definitely appreciate your passion on the issue though. If it helps hopefully it stays, if it hurts, then hopefully it goes quickly.
He was little finger.....
Mammoth Jones
Member
You don't withhold a diploma to a black child or any child really but especially a black child in America. Don't we have enough bullshit to deal with? Don't we have enough hoops to jump through. I keep hearing from the benevolent liberal how they want to help yall can start by listening to these communities...
Support. Engage. Assist. You don't deny a diploma to a child that has passed the grades.
So therefore this policy is acceptable? Black people are property to be utilized by the state as its sees fit? Follow through with your statement. Go ahead,a I'll wait,
Sorry it's 2017 not 1717 "states rights" don't mean anything to be when it's morally wrong. Same folks call themselves allies want to withhold my child's diploma despite her passing her grades? I reject that nonsense.
I sort of disagree with this on a completely fundamental level. Of course the state should be trying to help people who need it post high school. But making this kind of stuff necessary to graduate, even if you completed all other requirements to graduate high school? It really shouldn't be any of their business what someone intends to do post high school.
IrishNinja
Member
this policy literally sounds like some COMMON SENSE bullshit you'd see on a dumbass conservative's facebook page
yup
yup
Mammoth Jones
Member
This.
I see it perfectly. It's disgusting. And folks actually think this is "good for them..."
Eh, this should send shivers up the spine of a classical conservative. It's your standard state encroachment.
Nice high school diploma you got there. Would be a shame if it went missing. But don't worry, if you walk down one of these government sanctioned life pathways we'll make sure nothing happens to it.
MooseKnuckles
Banned
This seems like paternalistic crap, and if the city was serious about increasing education and social mobility in it's youth they should probably offer more support services, rather than throwing up another potential blockade to having kids graduate.
We are all utilities of the state. That is the price we pay for citizenship.
Your daughter wouldnt be graduating without a plan. You and I both know this because in this very short thread you have shown your knowledge of the system black kids are up against. This plan in theory is to make sure the little girl without the dad in her life looking out for her has the same chance you are giving your daughter in terms of planning for the future.
Lord of Ostia
Member
You aren't crazy, that was my first thought when looking at this policy. This is just more requirements for the kids who are actually graduating, i.e. the kids who actually show up to class and get decent grades. In a place like Chicago, where the public schools are already overextended and underfunded, and the communities have drug, violence, racism, police brutality, and a host of other problems, just getting to the point of graduation is hard enough. So now you want to require students either A. Obtain college acceptance, which requires time and money, both of which are likely in short supply for these students, or B. Obtain proof that they will have a job, in communities where adults with diplomas and experience have a hard time finding work because there isn't enough employment to go around. Of course, there is always option C. Join the military, so we can use low-income minority kids as cannon fodder. Lovely. On top of that, you are forcing overworked teachers and understaffed schools to somehow implement this program to an acceptable degree without any additional funding or manpower. This program could be good if it wasn't punitive (i.e. didn't involve withholding diplomas) and included additional funding to schools that desperately need it. If you want to help kids plan for the future, then commit the resources to actually do that. Do not force the onus on them to figure this out for themselves. All this program will do is encourage more kids to drop out, and make it harder for the decent stu students to graduate.
Dragon Puncher
Member
Yeah, this really seems like a way to force more young people into the military doesn't it..
Yes, that's a good thing but they can do all of that without the threat of not letting them graduate!
Mammoth Jones
Member
If America wants to help the girl with no father in her life we could start by not locking him up for nonviolent drug offenses because he did a little trappin in the first place. And by funding his school when he was a kid so the cycle doesn't repeat.
This law fucks over black children and for once it'd be nice to have our liberal allies trust us and not rham on this one. We're not stupid. We kinda know the problems we been facing them for a long time. It's systemic and you don't solve them by adding another systemic impediment to a black child's success.
You can offer ALL that support without the stipulation of not getting a diploma. The hell makes people think that a black child doesnt WANT to do something with their lives?! What makes people think that we don't want a job after high school or a trade or a college education?? Who is telling you we need to be prodded with negative stimulation to do what's right? I have a fundamental problem with the inference this policy makes.
The black child wants to learn the same as a white child. They want to do what's right, they want to be somebody.
How does withholding a diploma help us? When the intentional lack of support the intentional lack of economic opportunities and the intentional destruction of the black family in America has been the core of our issues?
And you mean to tell me the solution is the intentional withholding of a high school diploma? No.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Exactly. You can tell what this program is truly meant to do because of this requirement, and the fact that there is no additional funding or staff as part of this program. This is the state pushing off the burden of educating and providing for students onto the students and their families, so that they can say that they 'attempted to fix the problem' without actually providing any of the resources necessary to assist these students.