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[Cosmonaut X]

Thread title definitely needs a change, but I don't even know how you'd summarise the extent of all this.

If there are any mods reading, perhaps something like:

"British TV star Jimmy Savile revealed as serial paedophile; scandal sparks investigation into possible widespread abuse in UK children's homes"?

Not sure on character limits or whether that adequately gets what is going on here (and the possible political and Establishment links).

'UK paedophilia scandal'. Something short and nondescript until the full extent is revealed (assuming it ever is). It needs to be about more than just Savile though.

I dunno. I think the fact this started with Savile - and his links with political and other figures - is quite important to mention, but it does need to reflect that this is a far bigger thing now.

 

[Count Dookkake]

It's good to see UK Gaf expressing disgust and outrage over this.

It is a refreshing change from the "circling the wagons" that groups often engage in.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

This new information is just sick. Willful destruction of evidence. Fuck those cunts.

It's quite incredible.

 

[Dabanton]

@tom_watson: I see the pushback has begun in some sections of the media. The same people who dismissed the hacking allegations.Suspect they'll regret it.

...

 

[Clay Davis]

Thread title definitely needs a change, but I don't even know how you'd summarise the extent of all this.

I tried to change it to this - Child Abuse Scandal in UK grows to implicate MP's, celebs - possibly hundreds of vics - but it only changed the title in the opening post.

 

[Dabanton]

You have to PM a mod to do it

 

[mclem]

Yes, that extreme right wing news source, The Guardian, are obviously trying to help a the Conservatives.

Tom Watson is such an odious little shit and he has been caught out.

To be fair, The Guardian are hardly "The same people who dismissed the hacking allegations". They *relished* them!

 

[Clay Davis]

You have to PM a mod to do it

okay, I'll pm a mod and ask them to change the title.

thanks for letting me know.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

To be fair, The Guardian are hardly "The same people who dismissed the hacking allegations". They *relished* them!

Indeed - to the point of making a few major missteps, IIRC.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

It's good to see UK Gaf expressing disgust and outrage over this.

It is a refreshing change from the "circling the wagons" that groups often engage in.

I don't think you could find anyone who is not expressing disgust and outrage at this. It's disgusting and outrageous!

These allegations if true need to be exposed. Too many 'institutions' in the UK are deemed to be too precious to be rocked by scandal. Bullshit. The Church, the Police, the Government. It doesn't matter. You can't excuse or cover up this. Not now, not ever.

I think the only time you'll find UKGaf 'Circling the wagons' would be if it turned into a witch-hunt as that would then divert attention from the real scandal occurring and we'd want it put right back on the trail so to speak.

 

[Psychotext]

Took me a second to work out what the vics thing meant in the title.

Thought it might have been vids initially, then vicars, before finally getting that it's victims.

 

[Moral Panic]

that's a truly bizarre and ill-conceived statement, even for cameron

I really don't understand this. I thought that was one of the best statements he's come out with.

 

[Clay Davis]

Took me a second to work out what the vics thing meant in the title.

Thought it might have been vids initially, then vicars, before finally getting that it's victims.

sorry for any confusion, I wanted to put victims but wasn't able to due to the character limit. I thought about what I could remove, but it was all important information so went with vics hoping it wouldn't cause too much confusion or problems.

a big thank you to iapetus for updating the thread title. thank you.

 

[DECK'ARD]

sorry for any confusion, I wanted to put victims but wasn't able to due to the character limit. I thought about what I could remove, but it was all important information so went with vics hoping it wouldn't cause too much confusion or problems.

a big thank you to iapetus for updating the thread title. thank you.

I'd just lose the 'of' at the end so you could fit victims, but I think most people will get it.

I'd also edit in the news articles from the last few pages into the OP so people can understand how the story has grown from Jimmy Savile.

Also Jimmy Savile was a regular visitor to the care homes, that seems to be being confirmed now.

A relatitive of Lord McAlpine is now said to be one of the abusers, who's dead, but also boys were regularly taken to 2 homes of McAlpine family members to do work. Lord McAlpine doesn't seem very far from all this, not to the degree his statement was making out anyway.

 

[Clay Davis]

I'd just lose the 'of' at the end so you could fit victims, but I think most people will get it.

I'd also edit in the news articles from the last few pages into the OP so people can understand how the story has grown from Jimmy Savile.

Also Jimmy Savile was a regular visitor to the care homes, that seems to be being confirmed now.

A relatitive of Lord McAlpine is now said to be one of the abusers, who's dead, but also boys were regularly taken to 2 homes of McAlpine family members to do work. Lord McAlpine doesn't seem very far from all this at the very least.

I have some free time tomorrow, I'll endeavour to update the opening post with some new information.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I have some free time tomorrow, I'll endeavour to update the opening post with some new information.

That would be good to collect it in one place, just so people can get a handle on what is going on and the extent of it.

I imagine a lot more may come out over the weekend now as well.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I don't think you could find anyone who is not expressing disgust and outrage at this. It's disgusting and outrageous!

These allegations if true need to be exposed. Too many 'institutions' in the UK are deemed to be too precious to be rocked by scandal. Bullshit. The Church, the Police, the Government. It doesn't matter. You can't excuse or cover up this. Not now, not ever.

I think the only time you'll find UKGaf 'Circling the wagons' would be if it turned into a witch-hunt as that would then divert attention from the real scandal occurring and we'd want it put right back on the trail so to speak.

And for that I sincerely applaud you.

Makes me proud.

 

[DECK'ARD]

And for that I sincerely applaud you.

Makes me proud.

As a country we have to see all this brought out into the open, once and for all. No matter how unpleasant it is to hear, or how angry at the institutions it makes us. Justice for the victims, those guilty brought to account, and how these things were investigated and dealt with before examined so better practises and safe-guards can be put in place going forwards.

There's been too many failures before, if not outright cover-ups, to demand anything less.

 

[Bo-Locks]

Breaking on BBC:

Man sorry over sex abuse error

A former resident of a north Wales care home has apologised after he made allegations of sexual abuse against a Thatcher-era senior Conservative politician, claiming it was a case of mistaken identity.

It comes as the solicitor for Tory peer Lord McAlpine threatened legal action against those who linked the peer to the historical child abuse.

Steve Messham, who appeared on Newsnight, said: "I want to offer my sincere and humble apologies to him and his family."

"After seeing a picture in the past hour of the individual concerned, this not the person I identified by photograph presented to me by the police in the early 1990s, who told me the man in the photograph was Lord McAlpine.

This is why I would be very cautious and understand why the PM and others are cautious, too. At the moment the facts are being mixed with fiction, and it's too difficult to see which is which. That's why a full public inquiry is needed.

I don't doubt that a lot of horrible things took place and still do take place do vulnerable members of society, but how institutionalised these things are is up for debate.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Breaking on BBC:



This is why I would be very cautious and understand why the PM and others are cautious, too. At the moment the facts are being mixed with fiction, and it's too difficult to see which is which. That's why a full public inquiry is needed.

I don't doubt that a lot of horrible things took place and still do take place do vulnerable members of society, but how institutionalised these things are is up for debate.

Another victim identified the abuser as Jimmie McAlpine, related to Lord McAlpine. A local councillor has also said boys were regularly taken to 2 homes of McAlpine family members for work. He is not far away from the story at all, unlike his statement says.

Too much has been buried, from evidence, to names, to whole reports on the abuse for fear of writs from victims. Unless it all comes out the extent and those responsible will never come to light.

A full public enquiry has to be conducted about all this, stalling over it does not look good.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Islington now.

http://www.islingtontribune.com/new...ingtons-care-homes-1992-backs-calls-fresh-cri

CAMPAIGNERS are calling for a fresh criminal investigation into child abuse allegations which rocked Islington 20 years ago.

The Town Hall’s head of children’s services, Labour councillor Richard Watts, said he would support any new criminal investigation. Allegations of paedophile rings operating throughout Britain in the 1970s and 80s continue to emerge in the wake of the Jimmy Savile revelations.

On Tuesday, Home Secretary Theresa May ordered a review of the police investigation into abuse at North Wales care homes in the 1970s and 80s.

Now whistleblower Liz Davies, who as an Islington social worker exposed the horrific abuse in the borough’s care homes in 1992, backed calls for a fresh criminal investigation after being contacted by the Tribune.

“An investigation would stop more abuse,” said Ms Davies, a senior lecturer in child protection at London Metropolitan University.

“We need a nationwide police investigation to look at all these things. There were abusers in all of Islington’s care homes. Now they’ve moved on.”

Ms Davies told the Tribune this week that abusers “melted away” from Islington and have been left free to abuse elsewhere. “Now is a good time for a proper police investigation. I have a lot of information. After the story broke everybody just left the Town Hall. I found one of them was in a senior position in another borough by Googling his name just recently.

“People say that this was a long time ago, and that a lot of people are dead. But we need a criminal investigation to protect people now.

"The most important thing is childcare now. Where have these people gone? Not just known perpetrators – what about the people who colluded with them, who turned a blind eye?”

According to Eileen Fairweather, the award-winning journalist who broke the Islington abuse story in the Evening Standard, at least three of the abusers were subsequently arrested abroad for child abuse crimes.

Islington’s abuse scandal has always been a political hot potato because the leader of Islington Council at the time was Margaret Hodge, who went on to become Children’s Minister in Tony Blair’s government. She was accused of not doing enough to investigate the allegations, although she has always denied this and insisted that she acted properly.

Although there were as many as 13 inquiries – proving the abuse took place – none of them looked at the perpetrators. Rather, they led to a root-and-branch reform of the social services department.

Ms Davies first became aware of child abuse in Islington’s care homes in 1990 when she was a social services team manager. At the time each of the council’s 24 care homes was an independent entity, and abuse took place in all of them.

She had been told stories by children of homes being used as “under-age brothels” and children being taken on weekends away. Initially, her complaints to the then leaders of the council were ignored.

Once the Evening Standard published the allegations, however, a host of inquiries confirmed that they were true. But a police inquiry failed to find enough evidence to prosecute.

Yesterday (Thurs) Ms Fairweather described the original police inquiry in Islington, which didn’t find enough evidence to prosecute, as a “non-investigation”.

“We need a proper police investigation,” she said. “One at local level where all these things have been done and one at national level to coordinate all the intelligence.”

Ms Fairweather added that many of the known abusers in Islington had gone on to abuse elsewhere, with at least three prosecuted in developing countries. One, she said, was Nicholas John Rabet, former deputy superintendent of the council’s home in Grosvenor Avenue who had links with the paedophile ring on Jersey.

He escaped prosecution because of the then council’s gross mismanagement of the scandal and fled to Thailand.

Ms Fairweather discovered that he had been arrested there in 2006 and Thai police suspected him of abusing as many as 300 children. He died of an overdose before he could be tried, however.

“Islington was a classic case in how to lose inquiries and take no real action,” she said.

Again, I'm just speechless.

 

[Ashes]

No words.

 

[Bleepey]

The news will turn into brass eye.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'll be surprised when they find a clean council, not a dirty one. Fucking depressing.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Although there were as many as 13 inquiries – proving the abuse took place – none of them looked at the perpetrators.

I just can't get my head around this sentence.

 

[SmokyDave]

I just can't get my head around this sentence.

Lots of brown envelopes pushed into fat fingers mixed with a sprinkle of shared guilt I should imagine.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Lots of brown envelopes pushed into fat fingers mixed with a sprinkle of shared guilt I should imagine.

As you say, fucking depressing.

 

[SmokyDave]

As you say, fucking depressing.

It really is, even on a personal level. I'm having to evaluate why none of this is surprising to me. I'm not some nutty conspiracy theorist and yet when it's (borderline) confirmed that UK care homes are rife with abuse, all I can think is 'well, of course they are'. It just doesn't surprise me. I see people in the office getting shocked or defensive that this seedy underbelly is being exposed and yet all I can think about is just how many filthy bastards will walk away from this with clean (if sweaty) collars.

This whole thing makes me feel powerless, resigned, and miserable. I can't begin to imagine how the still silent victims feel.

 

[phisheep]

The most extraordinary thing about his is, to me, how these perpetrators back on the '60s and '70s got in touch with each other.

Either there's a complete cultural "you are involved now" thing that prevented leaks or there was a significant amount of coercion involved somewhere along the line. Either way it is worrying. How on earth would any sane rational person get involved in something like this?

At the same time it is perhaps worth remembering Orwell's Essay on Salvador Dali ("Benefit of Clergy") - that one can do do good things while being a bad person and perhaps vice-versa. The fact (I wouldn't even dare to use the word "mere" here) that a person has been a child abuser does not necessarily invalidate whatever else they may have done in another sphere of life.

A judge, or a politician (of whatever colour) may have been a good judge/politician while at the same time being a reckless of violent abuser of children.

I imagine that in the immediate future the media will seek to blur this line and seek to invalidate all sorts of otherwise useful things as having been promulgated by supposed paedophiles when their supposed paedophilia is not relevant to whatever issue it is.

Sure, we all would like to think of these people as monsters. Life, as it turns out, is not all that simple.

 

[Nicktendo86]

stuff

I understand the logic in what you are saying but, in my mind, child abuse is probably the most evil act anyone could commit and to be honest if it transpires that X is a pedophile I am not interested in the so called 'good' they have done.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

The most extraordinary thing about his is, to me, how these perpetrators back on the '60s and '70s got in touch with each other.

Either there's a complete cultural "you are involved now" thing that prevented leaks or there was a significant amount of coercion involved somewhere along the line. Either way it is worrying. How on earth would any sane rational person get involved in something like this?

At the same time it is perhaps worth remembering Orwell's Essay on Salvador Dali ("Benefit of Clergy") - that one can do do good things while being a bad person and perhaps vice-versa. The fact (I wouldn't even dare to use the word "mere" here) that a person has been a child abuser does not necessarily invalidate whatever else they may have done in another sphere of life.

A judge, or a politician (of whatever colour) may have been a good judge/politician while at the same time being a reckless of violent abuser of children.

I imagine that in the immediate future the media will seek to blur this line and seek to invalidate all sorts of otherwise useful things as having been promulgated by supposed paedophiles when their supposed paedophilia is not relevant to whatever issue it is.

Sure, we all would like to think of these people as monsters. Life, as it turns out, is not all that simple.

Unfortunately so. I was thinking the same earlier and in a way it saddens me as this is why those records were probably destroyed and things were covered over. Who watches the Watchmen?

We know that people are fallible but surely those who have the power in society should not be above the laws they are supposed to represent and uphold? Especially when it involves the abuse of minors many in a vulnerable situation who needed care not more abuse.

As you said though, it's not black and white and we need to remain rational and informed but we cannot just accept that good people do bad things if the bad things they do are reprehensible. These aren't allegations about a little shoplifting or hookers and blow.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I don't see how anyone could have any respect or trust in a judge/politician who was abusing their power in one of the worst ways possible.

Not to mention one of the names being mentioned was also involved in changes to the Freedom Of Information act.

The whole thing stinks.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Personally I would say these people are monsters, and life is that simple.

Because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Jackpot]

BBC top story is pretty categorical in its backtracking. Looks like they dun goofed.

 

[DECK'ARD]

BBC top story is pretty categorical in its backtracking. Looks like they dun goofed.

Rather large chunks of the story missing though, namely how close the McAlpine family is to it all.

All ties rather too neatly into Cameron's witch hunt line as well. Just order a full public enquiry into everything and get on with it.

 

[Dabanton]

Yeah it's all a little too 'clean' looks like there has been movement from behind the scenes..

 

[Mascot]

If something as prolonged, wide and far-reaching as this can be covered up - with hundreds of victims, participants and witnesses - then the mind boggles as to what else goes on in the corridors of power and behind the closed doors of authority.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Rather large chunks of the story missing though, namely how close the McAlpine family is to it all.

All ties rather too neatly into Cameron's witch hunt line as well. Just order a full public enquiry into everything and get on with it.

I'm actually getting rather concerned that between the BBC's fuckups, the ITV stupidity on "This Morning", the political embarassment and the desire (from all sides, apparently) for a simpler "narrative" (Jimmy the beast, lone serial paedo etc.) without the difficult questions this might actually be pushed aside and not properly dealt with.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I'm actually getting rather concerned that between the BBC's fuckups, the ITV stupidity on "This Morning", the political embarassment and the desire (from all sides, apparently) for a simpler "narrative" (Jimmy the beast, lone serial paedo etc.) without the difficult questions this might actually be pushed aside and not properly dealt with.

That's my concern as well.

No, that's complete bollocks. Anyone who knows about Alistair McAlpine will can categorically say that he could never be involved in anything like this.

This is a case of mistaken identity and the BBC should have heeded the warnings of all the people who told them not to run with this story and the listened to the conclusion of the original investigation that said there was no evidence to suggest that Alistair McAlpine was involved with this.

All of this has been a concerted effort by the BBC (with the help of their good friend Tom Watson) to deflect from the Jimmy Saville scandal and try and drag the the Tory party into the mess in order to save them from any punitive reform recommended by the government inquiry.

There is no doubt that someone abused Mr Meesham, it is quite likely that it was Jimmie McAlpine, we can't say for sure, but what we can say is that Alistair McAlpine was wrongly accused by the BBC and Tom Watson, and the timing of said allegations were very, very suspect. The fact that the BBC have admitted their mistake and the Guardian are the ones who have cleared the name of Lord McAlpine should tell you everything you need to know. It's not like it's the Daily Mail or the Express printing this story as a puff piece. It is the Guardian which is a pretty anti-Tory paper. I'm just pleased that they value journalistic integrity and cleared Lord McAlpine despite the fact that he is a Tory and was part of Mrs T's government.

So why was Jimmie McAlpine never held to account?
Why was photographic evidence destroyed?
Why were 2 homes of the McAlpine family being used?
Why were boys being bussed there regularly to do work in the first place?

Why is all this being left out?

It's not like Lord McAlpine is a million miles away from this, he's right next door to it all. His statement reads nothing like that though and dovetails perfectly into the witch hunt line that Cameron had conveniently gone with.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I think it has snowballed too much for it to be brushed aside. The latest revelations from Islington are just mind boggling and if the government, or Parliament, or the Lords, or the BBC or any establishment organisation tries to brush this aside there will be blood.

They've succeeded already for a few decades.

And consecutive Tory and Labour governments are knee-deep in it all, with people involved still serving as MP's or in charge of councils or in the police forces concerned. Why the delay on a full public enquiry? Why push that decision back until next year when there is more than enough evidence to order it into everything immediately.

Hundreds of children have been abused in care. Just 7 were convicted in North Wales, none outside the care system, and NONE AT ALL in Islington.

There doesn't seem to be the will to pursue this at all, let's face it there hasn't been for a very long time.

 

[Torraz]

With how well and long this terrible scandal has been covered up the conspiracy theorist in me wants to ask "what other corpses are in the closet"? If something like this can be covered up so very well, almost everything can.

 

[DECK'ARD]

With how well and long this terrible scandal has been covered up the conspiracy theorist in me wants to ask "what other corpses are in the closet"? If something like this can be covered up so very well, almost everything can.

Makes you think doesn't it, and it's so depressing.

A failure of everything from the very top down. From Government, to local councils, to social services, to the police. Everyone covering everyone else's backs at the expense of the victims, the public, and the truth. For DECADES.

We need to get the whole rotten thing out in the open once and for all.

 

[captainnapalm]

Anyone else reminded of David Icke. It seems ironic, but he's been accusing the elites of pedophilia for years.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Anyone else reminded of David Icke. It seems ironic, but he's been accusing the elites of pedophilia for years.

People who have psychotic breaks often become paranoid and accuse everyone of everything. Which Icke has done, throw enough shit and some will stick. Which I'm sure he's now furiously trying to add more to. Motivated most likely by money these days rather than a break from reality, he has quite a choir to preach to in the Internet age.

Let's stick to the real world, this subject and the accusations don't need to be dragged down by him.

 

[User 100115]

This whole thing is insane. I mean, I was pretty shocked at the Sandusky scandal, that it was able to be covered up for so long, but this? This is terrifying.

 

[DECK'ARD]

This whole thing is insane. I mean, I was pretty shocked at the Sandusky scandal, that it was able to be covered up for so long, but this? This is terrifying.

Jersey, North Wales and Islington are only the ones we know about so far as well. And all have 'botched' investigations.

Over a period of decades I very much doubt it's just them, or Savile, and that really is terrifying.

 

[captainnapalm]

People who have psychotic breaks often become paranoid and accuse everyone of everything. Which Icke has done, throw enough shit and some will stick. Which I'm sure he's now furiously trying to add more to. Motivated most likely by money these days rather than a break from reality, he has quite a choir to preach to in the Internet age.

Let's stick to the real world, this subject and the accusations don't need to be dragged down by him.

I just thought of it. I remember looking up some David Icke videos a year ago or so out of interest and it was certainly a central theme of his. The way he described it going down, via the social services and children's homes, also seems to be the way it did go down. But like you say, maybe some of the shit he threw just stuck.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I just thought of it. I remember looking up some David Icke videos a year ago or so out of interest and it was certainly a central theme of his. The way he described it going down, via the social services and children's homes, also seems to be the way it did go down. But like you say, maybe some of the shit he threw just stuck.

Yeah, when you look at everything he has said over the years from his first infamous appearance on Wogan he had suffered (or was suffering) a full psychotic break and that had manifested itself in extreme paranoia. He threw a LOT of shit. Reality and his perception of it got blurred, I'm guessing he was a fan of V as well

With extreme paranoia comes a distrust of everyone, especially in authority, and an exaggeration of what is good (ie. Icke himself, and a probable Messiah Complex) and everyone that is bad. Child abuse and the exploration of the most vulnerable going hand in hand with that. These days I'm guessing it's more motivated by money and the thriving conspiracy movement which the Internet has fuelled.

The extent and timescale of all this I think even Icke may be surprised by the time it all comes to light, if it does.

 

[captainnapalm]

Yeah, when you look at everything he has said over the years from his first infamous appearance on Wogan he had suffered (or was suffering) a full psychotic break and that had manifested itself in extreme paranoia. He threw a LOT of shit. Reality and his perception of it got blurred, I'm guessing he was a fan of V as well

With extreme paranoia comes a distrust of everyone, especially in authority, and an exaggeration of what is good (ie. Icke himself, and a probable Messiah Complex) and everyone that is bad. Child abuse and the exploration of the most vulnerable going hand in hand with that. These days I'm guessing it's more motivated by money and the thriving conspiracy movement which the Internet has fuelled.

The extent and timescale of all this I think even Icke may be surprised by the time it all comes to light, if it does.

At any rate, it's an awful story, and I hope for all concerned it gets dealt with satisfactorily.

 

[DECK'ARD]

At any rate, it's an awful story, and I hope for all concerned it gets dealt with satisfactorily.

Me too.

We may need to reach a critical mass of the public demanding it though as with the expenses scandal. This is going into an area some people just don't want to hear though, the scale and repercussions of it are huge. Irrespective of all the people who are either directly involved or complicit in allowing it to happen or those go unpunished. I can't even begin to imagine what is going on behind the scenes in some quarters.

Can see the Sunday papers maybe running with something now, especially the whole Jimmie McAlpine story as he's dead to bring some balance to this week's events. So far the more that comes out, the worse it has got. Depressing.