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[sazzy]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37518289

Legal marriage or state-sanctioned abuse?

The official confusion is reflected in one reported case: a 15-year-old Syrian girl married to her 21-year-old cousin. She was first separated from him in the city of Aschaffenburg, Bavaria, for reasons of child protection.

Her husband lost an appeal to a family court, but the decision was eventually set aside by a regional court, which judged that the marriage should be recognised as it was legal in the country of origin.

But the city appealed, and the pair are now awaiting a judgment from Germany's federal court.

Denmark's dilemma

Denmark's response has swung first one way and then the other.

In February, Integration Minister Inger Stojberg vowed to act after a review found dozens of cases of girls living with older men in asylum seekers' accommodation - which the minister called "totally unacceptable".

Couples would require "exceptional reasons" to live together below the age of 18 (the legal age for marriage in Denmark) and no cohabitation would be allowed whatsoever if one party was below 15.

But separation reportedly prompted two migrants under 18 to attempt suicide.

The policy was reversed earlier this week - with children as young as 14 reunited with their husbands - after the issue was raised with the Danish Immigration Service (DIS) by lawmaker Josephine Fock.

Dutch clampdown

In the Netherlands, policy has shifted in the other direction - with the government moving swiftly last year to close a legal loophole which allowed child brides to live with older husbands in asylum centres.

And politicians have grappled with the same dilemma elsewhere in Europe - though on the whole each country is dealing with just a handful of cases.

German indecision

The issue takes on much broader significance in Germany, which has greeted some 1.2 million migrants since last year under Chancellor Angela Merkel's "open-door" policy.

Here the authorities' response has been inconsistent and, some claim, confused.
Data suggest that in Germany there are at least 1,000 marriages where one or both parties are under the legal marriage age of 18, of which more than half are in the southern state of Bavaria.

 

[Drazgul]

the marriage should be recognised as it was legal in the country of origin.

Fuck that shit.

 

[Fritz]

"German indecision" UK media is so fucking awful.


"Germany" has to wait for the Federal Court decision after which everything will be clear and deald with accordingly.

 

[Machina]

Fuck that. This practice isn't being normalized in the west.

 

[sazzy]

Greater detail on that German case in the OP:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germany-overwhelmed-by-1000-refugee-child-brides-call-ban-grows-1577226

In June, one court in Bamberg in Bavaria accepted the marriage of a 21-year-old Syrian man to his 14-year-old cousin. Welfare services had initially separated them, making the girl a ward of the court, but the couple then successfully challenged the decision.

The court said the marriage was legal because it had been carried out in accordance with Syrian law.

However, because under German law children under the age of 16 must have a legal guardian, courts have begun making their husbands their guardians.

The decisions have appalled women's rights groups.

"A husband cannot be the legal guardian of a child bride because he is involved in a sexual relationship with her — a very obvious conflict of interests," Monika Michell of Terre des Femmes, which campaigns against child marriage, told the Sunday Times.

 

[Funky Papa]

This is not exactly a new occurrence. Any country with significant migration from the Middle East or the Indian subcontinent has had to dealt with this before. Further, arranged child marriages used to be a huge issue among Western Europe's Roma population and one of the chief reasons behind their chronic poverty.

It's child abuse under another name and should be fought with the same vehemence.

 

[Zaru]

There were already way too many cases of some girl getting"disappeared" to countries of family origin like turkey or whatever and married to older men there regardless of their will.
We couldn't do much against that here in Europe.

This is different, because it happens IN Europe. Nobody can convince me that these kinds of marriages should generally be accepted.

 

[BlackLagoon]

Fuck that shit.

The problematic aspect here is that you're potentially isolating a traumatised child from their only family, the only person they trust and take comfort in this completely alien environment thus traumatizing them further. Even if they can't live together, I think allowing them some time together is the least bad option as long as one is sure no outright abuse it going on.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Marrying your 15 year old cousin? Gross.

 

[sohois]

This is an issue because perfect political solutions don't exist.

Ban any kind of marriage for under 18s and you'll inevitably get some actual loving couples being forced to split. Take a more lenient approach and there will be always be children who are abused or married against their will. There is no policy you can enact that both protects vulnerable children and allows legitimate couples to stay together, anything you enact will cause some group of people to be harmed.

The simple answer is to just look at cost/benefit of different approaches and choose the one that produces the most good, even if some lose out (which is almost certainly the restrictive, protective approach). But as soon as you do that there will be a report in the media about some poor refugee, maybe they lost their family for extra poignancy, and they've been forced apart from their spouse. Thus a bunch of people will rise up and demand changes because of this sad case.

People simply cannot accept that some people must lose out from policies like this. The perfect ends up the enemy of the good.

 

[Moosichu]

The problematic aspect here is that you're potentially isolating a traumatised child from their only family, the only person they trust and take comfort in in this completely alien environment thus traumatizing them further. Even if they can't live together, I think allowing them some time together is the least bad option as long as one is sure no outright abuse it going on.

A state should be well-functioning enough to provide solid child support.

 

[Knurek]

Hasn't this been a going on for a long time in Europe?
I mean, Roma people exist in pretty much all countries, and they have wedding customs similar to the ones described above.

A Romani patriarch, Florin Cioabă, ran afoul of Romanian authorities in late 2003 when he married off his youngest daughter, Ana-Maria at the age of twelve, well below the legal marriageable age.

 

[TimeEffect]

What can be done? Separating the kids sounds like it would create tons of animosity. Yet itd be for their own good. Where would the children go? A shelter?

Why did they marry children in the first place? I know this will be justified se way, and I assume its going to be something like "kids cant take care of themselves and their parents cant take of them, so the are married off for their protection". That's the apologism Ive read over child marriages along with 14 being an acceptable age of consent.

If that's how this society thinks, separating these "legally" bound couples will make the Europeans look like monsters to them.

 

[HazySaiyan]

which judged that the marriage should be recognised as it was legal in the country of origin.

WTF? No it fucking shouldn't

 

[Funky Papa]

The problematic aspect here is that you're potentially isolating a traumatised child from their only family, the only person they trust and take comfort in this completely alien environment thus traumatizing them further. Even if they can't live together, I think allowing them some time together is the least bad option as long as one is sure no outright abuse it going on.

You just made the case for child services.

 

[Audioboxer]

Most people's patience, nerves and will gets strongly tested when children/kids start getting abused. Sucks it comes to that to turn many on, but alas, at least this is one part of a culture we can huddle around and swiftly and strictly fight back against it in every legal and progressive way imaginable.

The young understandably need a lot more protection than adults at times. Mainly because adults are suppose to be carers and educators until the young then develop into adults themselves. Protecting and uplifting the young from oppression is also one way in which you can start to dismantle future generations from behaving in similar ways. The abused often become the abusers if it's all they know and no one tries to help them when they are young.

Her husband lost an appeal to a family court, but the decision was eventually set aside by a regional court, which judged that the marriage should be recognised as it was legal in the country of origin.

Without a doubt that is an unfit resolution for the country of residence.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Should not be allowed. Pretty black and white issue as far as I'm concerned. It's child abuse.

What can be done? Separating the kids sounds like it would create tons of animosity. Yet itd be for their own good. Where would the children go? A shelter?

Child services. There are organisations dealing with these things. Allowing abuse to continue should not be allowed.

 

[Nightbird]

I do not agree with our courts accepting that.

Mostly because i know some people who are going to take advantage of this kind of ruling.

 

[Fritz]

This is an issue because perfect political solutions don't exist.

Ban any kind of marriage for under 18s and you'll inevitably get some actual loving couples being forced to split. Take a more lenient approach and there will be always be children who are abused or married against their will. There is no policy you can enact that both protects vulnerable children and allows legitimate couples to stay together, anything you enact will cause some group of people to be harmed.

The simple answer is to just look at cost/benefit of different approaches and choose the one that produces the most good, even if some lose out (which is almost certainly the restrictive, protective approach). But as soon as you do that there will be a report in the media about some poor refugee, maybe they lost their family for extra poignancy, and they've been forced apart from their spouse. Thus a bunch of people will rise up and demand changes because of this sad case.

People simply cannot accept that some people must lose out from policies like this. The perfect ends up the enemy of the good.

It is all regulated. I am not sure exactly how since I didn't want to get married with 16 but I know you can in some cases with the consent of the parents. However not with 14.

The question is how to deal with marriages that would have been illegal under German law but have been legally executed abroad. The issue has to go through courts or needs to be explicitly regulated.

 

[AtomskEater]

I think even if couples under 18 are forced to divorce or split or whatever the term would be, if it actually was a loving relationship they could wait until both participants are of legal age and remarry. Then again, I can see the argument that you're splitting up people who are in a foreign land and may only have each other to depend on. This is a tough predicament, but my general feelings on underage marriage/child brides are negative regardless. I don't want that practice to become normalized in Western society.

 

[Super_Cobra]

That's horrible that young girls are forced into marriage. I hope they find a solution to this problem. They should also investigate how many of those young girls are being abused.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

Fuck that. This practice isn't being normalized in the west.

It wont be.

It's going to be really hard integrating and teaching all of these refugees the customs, laws and practices of their new nations in a way that's non-confrontational but it's kind of our humanitarian duty at this point. Lets hope it goes well though, the world's governments really need to not be shy about investing money into programs or charities that would support this.

 

[Juicy Bob]

I get the intention of the German law (which I think is to ensure that legitimate marriages in other countries are recognised and respected) but isn't this a Human Rights issue?

I thought there would be clear Human Rights framework to ensure these underage bride cases aren't treated as legitimate.

 

[BlackLagoon]

You just made the case for child services.

Hmm? Underage asylum seekers are still asylum seekers and generally get handled by that system while their application is being processed. It's how they are managed there upon arrival that has generally been the issue in the cases I've read about.

 

[Kthulhu]

The problematic aspect here is that you're potentially isolating a traumatised child from their only family, the only person they trust and take comfort in this completely alien environment thus traumatizing them further. Even if they can't live together, I think allowing them some time together is the least bad option as long as one is sure no outright abuse it going on.

But state sanctioned pedophilia isn't?

 

[Trickster]

As a dane, I really dissaprove of us ending a policy that prevented 14 year old girls from having to live with an adult man. The policy might have been flawed and not ideal, but to just remove it without an alternative, just seems like a really bad move...

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

a 15-year-old Syrian girl married to her 21-year-old cousin.

 

[Audioboxer]

As a dane, I really dissaprove of us ending a policy that prevented 14 year old girls from having to live with an adult man. The policy might have been flawed and not ideal, but to just remove it without an alternative, just seems like a really bad move...

It is. It's essentially "legalising" paedophilia. We know fine well these kids are engaged in sexual situations with adult men. Many probably by force, in that they are arranged marriages or some potentially even rape scenarios.

One thing that gets you a bit testy with social justice is when people in places of privilege ignore shit like this. Usually, it's some perverted fear of being called a name for "not respecting cultures". Abuses of children should never be respected regardless of what culture they come from. To come and live in our societies should be freeing them from this madness, not bringing it along with them.

 

[King_Moc]

It's paedophilia. The parents should be sent back.

 

[Kthulhu]

It's paedophilia. The parents should be sent back.

I think that's extreme, but they should indeed be separated.

 

[Nere]

Allowing backward policies like those is one of the reasons the right is unfortunately rising across Europe.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think that's extreme, but they should indeed be separated.

At first port of call, maybe, but it should be made crystal clear to live in our societies what shit won't fly. Either you integrate, or you face legal consequence, and IMO being exported back to where you came from if it's not a warzone should be something that can be legally done. If it's a warzone fair enough we can't simply drop you off, but you're going to face time in prison like sexual offenders do already. Not simply walk around a free person doing as you please.

Kids are largely more vulnerable in society than adults, so let's start offering them all the protections they require. Not giving an inch to allow abuses to be hand-waved.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think that's extreme, but they should indeed be separated.

If one is not willing to see that this is wrong and give up on the practice upon moving to a new country, then they should not be allowed citizenship of that country, since they are already showing themselves to break with our laws.

 

[Kthulhu]

At first port of call, maybe, but it should be made crystal clear to live in our societies what shit won't fly. Either you integrate, or you face legal consequence, and IMO being exported back to where you came from if it's not a warzone should be something that can be legally done. If it's a warzone fair enough we can't simply drop you off, but you're going to face time in prison like sexual offenders do already. Not simply walk around a free person doing as you please.

That I agree with. Prison time makes much more sense.

If one is not willing to see that this is wrong and give up on the practice upon moving to a new country, then they should not be allowed citizenship of that country, since they are already showing themselves to break with our laws.

Sending them to a warzone would be inhumane.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Sending them to a warzone would be inhumane.

Sure, that's why I said not allowed citizenship (or any other permanent residence), so they can be sent back when it is deemed safe enough.

 

[dondarm]

Um... people might wanna look up age of consent in Germany. (Hint: you won't like the results)

 

[Audioboxer]

Um... people might wanna look up age of consent in Germany. (Hint: you won't like the results)

The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 21 does not exploit a 14- to 15-year-old person's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, in which case a conviction of an individual over the age of 21 requires a complaint from the younger individual; being over 21 and engaging in sexual relations with a minor of that age does not constitute an offense by itself. Otherwise the age of consent is 16, although provisions protecting minors against abuse apply until the age of 18 (under Section 182(1), it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 "by taking advantage of an exploitative situation

But marriage age

Germany 18 (16 with court permission and parental consent)

And most may morally say 'arranged' is always exploitative. It removes individualism from the woman and doesn't allow her to make her own choices. You aren't really pro-women's rights if you want to argue arranged marriage is "liberating".

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Cousin

I always forget the levels of consanguinity in the middle East and North Africa and how inbred the people there are.

 

[dondarm]

But marriage age



And most may morally say 'arranged' is always exploitative. It removes individualism from the woman and doesn't allow her to make her own choices. You aren't really pro-women's rights if you want to argue arranged marriage is "liberating".

Of course, my comment was aimed more at the comments about paedophilia.

 

[Kthulhu]

Sure, that's why I said not allowed citizenship (or any other permanent residence), so they can be sent back when it is deemed safe enough.

My mistake.

 

[Mendrox]

Greater detail on that German case in the OP:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germany-overwhelmed-by-1000-refugee-child-brides-call-ban-grows-1577226

Urgh makes me really sick.

 

[azyless]

Yeah this is disgusting and the indecision from european countries is as well.

 

[Vector]

Is it really our place to render judgement over their traditions?

Aren't they entitled to their own customs the instant they cross an imaginary line?

 

[Sunster]

Nopeee. Fuck that.

 

[Audioboxer]

Of course, my comment was aimed more at the comments about paedophilia.

Fair enough, but under the surface we know fine well it doesn't just stop at 14 year olds.

Though there has been no exact figure of child marriages, some studies published in the media suggested that no less than 3,000 girls in the Kingdom were under 13 when they got married, while their husbands were at least 25 years their senior.

http://www.albawaba.com/saudi-child-marriages-issue-still-not-resolved

A 12-year-old girl was given in marriage to an 85-year-old man in Chiniot on Friday.

According to eyewitnesses, tehsil Bhowana Adlana Japay resident Faiz sold his daughter Rani to his rival for five acres of land.

Eyewitnesses told police that Faiz had allegedly killed his cousin, the groom, Ahmed's sister Anwar Bibi 8 years ago and a panchayat decided that he would give his daughter to settle the blood debt.

When contacted, Langrana Station House Officer (SHO) Zafar Bhatti said that he had conducted a raid but found that no laws were broken. ”I cannot arrest anyone here because the girl is an adult as per Islamic Law and Shariah. She is 12-years-old and that is not too young for marriage," he said.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/264445/child-marriage-12-year-old-girl-given-in-wani-to-85-year-old/

A 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, died during a painful childbirth that also killed her baby, a children's rights group said Monday.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/14/yemen.childbirth.death/index.html

In Iran a 13 year old girl is old enough to legally marry and considered as an adult at age 8 years and 9 months, old enough to be sentenced to stoning, flogging and hanging for adultery and fornication. Iranian gender biased law favors men where pedophiles are likely to prevail over the girls and women they victimized facing the risk of being convicted should they go to courts

Is it really our place to render judgement over their traditions?

Aren't they entitled to their own customs the instant they cross an imaginary line?

Our laws supersede "customs".

 

[Skellig Gra]

dat Sharia law...smh

The courts made the right decision.

 

[Chuckie]

Is it really our place to render judgement over their traditions?

Aren't they entitled to their own customs the instant they cross an imaginary line?

Yes, why not? Why the fuck would you respect a tradition that forces children to marry?

In some countries it is tradition to kill gays. Should we respect that too?

 

[Sunster]

Yes, why not? Why the fuck would you respect a tradition that forces children to marry?

In some countries it is tradition to kill gays. Should we respect that too?

this poster is being sarcastic.

 

[King_Moc]

Is it really our place to render judgement over their traditions?

Aren't they entitled to their own customs the instant they cross an imaginary line?

Not if they're in violation of the law, no. Some cultures had ritual sacrifice as one of their traditions, here that's called murder.

 

[Metrotab]

Disgusting and has no place in Western society.