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[azyless]

nvm hopefully they are being sarcastic

 

[Chuckie]

this poster is being sarcastic.

How can I be sure? There are shitloads of people who actually think like that.

I've met these extreme cultural relativists in real.

 

[Kayhan]

Hard to think of a more slippery slope than different rules and laws for different ethnicities and religions in the same country.

 

[Sunster]

How can I be sure? There are shitloads of people who actually think like that.

I've met these extreme cultural relativists in real.

The last sentence gives it away. But I guess in threads like this where tensions are high sarcasm should always be marked.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The problematic aspect here is that you're potentially isolating a traumatised child from their only family, the only person they trust and take comfort in this completely alien environment thus traumatizing them further. Even if they can't live together, I think allowing them some time together is the least bad option as long as one is sure no outright abuse it going on.

Eh, I think it was problematic before that. Sounds like a lot of these women are basically getting sold into sexual slavery as a way of buying protection because the standards of law have eroded where they are coming from and having a husband is seen as the lesser of two evils.

 

[Drencrom]

Culture relativism bullshit

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I you want to come to a nation then you have to accept their customs and traditions. I can't go so some nations and just do as I please because that's the way it is back home.

So to that end I don't support child brides. Some things need to be non-negotiable. Period. No exceptions. Child brides is on that list. It should be on that list.

 

[Gurthang]

This is especially a problem among the Pashtuns. I am sure they would love to freely practice polygamy with numerous child brides in the western countries.

 

[leatherhat]

The problematic aspect here is that you're potentially isolating a traumatised child from their only family, the only person they trust and take comfort in this completely alien environment thus traumatizing them further. Even if they can't live together, I think allowing them some time together is the least bad option as long as one is sure no outright abuse it going on.

You would be isolating a victim from an abuser. They should put the child bride in childrens services and send the adult man back home.

 

[azyless]

Hard to think of a more slippery slope than different rules and laws for different ethnicities and religions in the same country.

Good thing no one is talking about that.

 

[Audioboxer]

Not if they're in violation of the law, no. Some cultures had ritual sacrifice as one of their traditions, here that's called murder.

You mean I can't make sacrifices to the RNG Gods in order to get better drops in my MMOs? Darn.

I you want to come to a nation then you have to accept their customs and traditions. I can't go so some nations and just do as I please because that's the way it is back home.

So to that end I don't support child brides. Some things need to be non-negotiable. Period. No exceptions. Child brides is on that list. It should be on that list.

Add to that arranged marriages. Even although we're talking about protecting minors and young adults, I think a court of law should be there to protect anyone from issues of consent as well. It can be harder to prove a woman is coerced into marriage if she isn't actively seeking help or aid under duress but in principal, our societies should still openly state we don't support arranged marriages.

Marriage, love and relationships as concepts should always be based around consenting participation. It's why I have a beef with some hard-wing Catholics and their perspective on divorce being a sin.

 

[Drencrom]

Is it really our place to render judgement over their traditions?

Aren't they entitled to their own customs the instant they cross an imaginary line?

Are you serious? Just because raping children is legal in some third world country doesn't mean that they are allowed to in another country/society. Your mindset is fucking disgusting and protects people that hurts children.

 

[leatherhat]

Good thing no one is talking about that.

Thats exactly what this issue is. Should people from the Middle East be allowed to keep their child brides because its legal in their countries.

 

[Kurdel]

Are you serious? Just because raping children is legal in some third world country doesn't mean that they are allowed to in another country/society. Your mindset is fucking disgusting and protects people that hurts children.

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...


EDIT: I had posted this outdated map of europe age of consent without context, Audioboxer's posts did a great job in explaining the details. I took the pocture down to avoid more quotes and derail, seeing so many inaccuracies were noticed.

 

[azyless]

Thats exactly what this issue is. Should people from the Middle East be allowed to keep their child brides because its legal in their countries.

You're in Germany (or whatever other country) now, you respect Germany's laws. It's pretty simple and there's nothing discriminatory about that contrary to what that poster was saying.

 

[Gurthang]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

But what is the median marriage age in these european countries compared to Afghanistan?

Fuck off you pedophile apologist.

 

[psychowave]

What if the teenage bride consents?

Minors can't give informed consent to having sexual relationships with adults.

 

[leatherhat]

You're in Germany (or whatever other country) now, you respect Germany's laws. It's pretty simple and there's nothing discriminatory about that contrary to what that poster was saying.

We must be reading his post differently.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

It wont be.

It's going to be really hard integrating and teaching all of these refugees the customs, laws and practices of their new nations in a way that's non-confrontational but it's kind of our humanitarian duty at this point.

These things should be confronted and it should be made clear they are unacceptable in a civilized society.

 

[Kurdel]

But what is the median marriage age in these european countries compared to Afghanistan?

Fuck off you pedophile apologist.

I am sorry if I wasn't clear, I am just highlighting the selective outrage in this thread considering how disgustingly low some of those ages of consent are.

Minors can't give informed consent to having sexual relationships with adults.

Of course I agree, but the first example in the OP wouldn't be an issue if they were in Spain instead of Germany. edit: Spain is 16 now, so that is a bad example, thanks Closingadoor!

 

[ClosingADoor]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

Not that it matters that much to this discussion, but Spain moved to an age of consent of 16 two years ago. Croatia also moved from 14 to 15. Lithuania is 16 now. So the map needs a bit of an update. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

 

[Audioboxer]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

It's more complex than that ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Often there is lots of legal protection in place around massive age gaps, as in not just two 15 year olds having sex, but middle age men and young woman. Not to mention we have strict laws on consent, rape and any sort of physical violence/coercion.

Age of consent in a bubble often looks to be reasonable about the age at which teenagers may begin sexually experimenting. As much as parents want to pretend their little babies will be virgins until they are 30, we are a sexual species and high school is often one heck of a test of will for horny teenagers. We can't start mass locking up kids for consenting sexual relationships. However, as I said above we do usually keep an eye on 30 year old men going after 15 year old girls. That's not exactly your high school heart-throb and you experimenting, it is often preying on minors.

This topic is also dealing largely with marriage which often has a higher age requirement in Europe than the age of consent for sex.

But what is the median marriage age in these european countries compared to Afghanistan?

Fuck off you pedophile apologist.

Dude, scale it back a bit. The image isn't incorrect, it just requires some nuance like I attempted above.

 

[dave is ok]

I am sorry if I wasn't clear, I am just highlighting the selective outrage in this thread considering how disgustingly low some of those ages of consent are.

The legal marriage age in Germany is 18.

 

[Chuckie]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

Well in the case of the Netherlands that is consent for sexual relationships, not marriage. Both partners have to be 18 to marry. So yeah...child marriages are illegal there too.

 

[Sunster]

Not that it matters that much to this discussion, but Spain moved to an age of consent of 16 two years ago.

matters to me. It's been my favorite country since like middle school but that 13 was about to have me reconsider. Gross.

 

[nynt9]

Not that it matters that much to this discussion, but Spain moved to an age of consent of 16 two years ago.

Even though the age of consent in Turkey is 18, that's for legal marriages. They also hold Islamic marriages which have no legal requirement and these are often done to facilitate child marriages. They recently removed a ban on Islamic marriages held without a legal marriage, too. So now people do Islamic marriages which, with immense social pressure binds the child to the man, and then when the child comes of age they turn it into a legal marriage.

 

[leatherhat]

I am sorry if I wasn't clear, I am just highlighting the selective outrage in this thread considering how disgustingly low some of those ages of consent are.

There are a lot or rules that map doesn't show. For example in Italy the consent age is 13 if the partner is no older than 16. These marriages would still be very illegal.

 

[Kurdel]

It's more complex than that ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

This topic is also dealing largely with marriage which often has a higher age requirement in Europe than the age of consent for sex.

Thanks for the clarification, great post!

 

[azyless]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

There are plenty of exceptions in place to prevent child abuse. It's not as simple as "oh you're 14 now everyone can have sex with you legally".
In Germany for example :
- it's illegal for anyone over 21 to be having sex with anyone under 16
- you can't have sex with anyone under 18 if you're taking advantage of an exploitative situation, which I'd say an arranged marriage definitely is.
- you can't even get married before you're 16 (with parental consent)

 

[Audioboxer]

Even though the age of consent in Turkey is 18, that's for legal marriages. They also hold Islamic marriages which have no legal requirement and these are often done to facilitate child marriages. They recently removed a ban on Islamic marriages held without a legal marriage, too. So now people do Islamic marriages which, with immense social pressure binds the child to the man, and then when the child comes of age they turn it into a legal marriage.

Yeah I forgot about Turkey on the previous page where I listed some countries

Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of Şanlıurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, according to the Istanbul-based Social Democracy Foundation, which is campaigning against the practice.

They typically marry in religious ceremonies and delay civil marriage until they're of age, according to the foundation. "As long as you have people in Turkey who say this is okay and who use Islam to justify it, it remains a big problem," says Amanda Akçakoca, an analyst at the European Policy Center in Brussels.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/sex-case-grips-country-amid-young-brides-split-10466262

There are plenty of exceptions in place to prevent child abuse. It's not as simple as "oh you're 14 now everyone can have sex with you legally".
In Germany for example :
- it's illegal for anyone over 21 to be having sex with anyone under 16
- you can't have sex with anyone under 18 if you're taking advantage of an exploitative situation, which I'd say an arranged marriage definitely is.
- you can't even get married before you're 16 (with parental consent)

Yup. As I said above a lot of the debate is trying to be honest about how teenagers will behave around their own age groups, whilst also protecting them from middle-aged preying eyes.

 

[Dalibor68]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

That map is incorrect. Austria's minimum age of consent is 18. 16 only if the other partner is 18+ and the 16yo is deemed mature enough by a court decision.

There is no justification for child brides whatsoever and we can not have it normalized.

 

[Nightbird]

There are plenty of exceptions in place to prevent child abuse. It's not as simple as "oh you're 14 now everyone can have sex with you legally".
In Germany for example :
- it's illegal for anyone over 21 to be having sex with anyone under 16
- you can't have sex with anyone under 18 if you're taking advantage of an exploitative situation, which I'd say an arranged marriage definitely is.
- you can't even get married before you're 16 (with parental consent)

right on. The age of consent is not an catch-all solution in Germany, there are many more rules than that.

But its good for shock value as evidenced by the next two posts after mine

 

[Insane Metal]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

WTF O.O

I had no idea it was like that. W.T.F. 😮

 

[Kayhan]

What if the teenage bride consents? Europe has some pretty low barriers to age of consent...

Yikes at southern Europe. And Iceland. What are you doing, ice bros?

 

[ClosingADoor]

WTF O.O

I had no idea it was like that. W.T.F. ��

It is not, the map is faulty for a lot of countries and leaves out details.

Yikes at southern Europe. And Iceland. What are you doing, ice bros?

Iceland is 15 these days. Spain is 16. It's too bad a map like that is posted with clearly faulty or outdated information.

 

[Skinpop]

Yikes at southern Europe. And Iceland. What are you doing, ice bros?

age of consent doesn't mean it's free for all. e

 

[AdequateSubject]

Here in Sweden, marriage between two people under 18 was legal under special circumstances until 2014.

This was completely uncontroversial until we learned that some foreigners were doing it. Outrage ensued! Not only did these nasty foreigners bring this horrible, backwards cultural practice into our country. They did it right under our noses by having it be coincidentally identical to one of our own cultural practices, and completely legal under our revered justice system! Those cunning bastards!

Well, we sure showed them! Now they know that Sweden will NEVER cave to outside pressure to change our laws or culture... wait...

 

[Audioboxer]

Yikes at southern Europe. And Iceland. What are you doing, ice bros?

You're better to do some brief reading rather than just looking at that image

The ages of consent vary by jurisdiction across Europe. The ages of consent are currently set between 14 and 18. The vast majority of countries set their ages in the range of 14 to 16; only five countries, Cyprus (17), Ireland (17), Malta (18), Turkey (18) and Vatican (18), do not fit into this pattern. The laws can also stipulate the specific activities that are permitted or differentially specify the age at which a given sex can participate. Below is a discussion of the various laws dealing with this subject. The highlighted age is that at which, or above which, an individual can engage in unfettered sexual relations with another who is also at or above that age. In 2014, the self-declared state of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus lifted the ban on sodomy, decriminalizing homosexual sex.[1] All other jurisdictions in Europe have an equal and gender-neutral age limit.

Neither the European Union nor the Council of Europe have suggested any specific age of consent, and there has not been any effort so far to standardize the age across member states. However, most countries in Europe now have binding legal obligations in regard to the sexual abuse of children under 18. The Lanzarote Convention,[2] which came into effect in 2011, obligates the countries that ratify it to criminalize certain acts concerning children under 18, such as the involvement of such children in prostitution and pornography. Other acts that must be criminalized include:

"Engaging in sexual activities with a child (child is defined in Article 3 as "person under the age of 18 years") where:

Use is made of coercion, force or threats; or
Abuse is made of a recognised position of trust, authority or influence over the child, including within the family; or
Abuse is made of a particularly vulnerable situation of the child, notably because of a mental or physical disability or a situation of dependence."
The age of consent is called "the legal age for sexual activities" and must be chosen by states at the age they see fit. (No specific age is recommended.) As of December 2016, the convention has been ratified by 42 states, while another 5 states have signed but not yet ratified the convention.[3]

In the European Union (EU 28), there is a directive regarding the sexual abuse of children under 18, known as "Directive 2011/92/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 13 December 2011 on combating the sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of children and child pornography".[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

It's not just "age x" and everything goes.

 

[dave is ok]

Here in Sweden, marriage between two people under 18 was legal under special circumstances until 2014.

This was completely uncontroversial until we learned that some foreigners were doing it. Outrage ensued! Not only did these nasty foreigners bring this horrible, backwards cultural practice into our country. They did it right under our noses by having it be coincidentally identical to one of our own cultural practices, and completely legal under our revered justice system! Those cunning bastards!

Well, we sure showed them! Now they know that Sweden will NEVER cave to outside pressure to change our laws or culture... wait...

This article isn't talking about marriage between two people under the age 18. It's talking about adults marrying children. Good strawman though.

 

[TimeEffect]

Here in Sweden, marriage between two people under 18 was legal under special circumstances until 2014.

This was completely uncontroversial until we learned that some foreigners were doing it. Outrage ensued! Not only did these nasty foreigners bring this horrible, backwards cultural practice into our country. They did it right under our noses by having it be coincidentally identical to one of our own cultural practices, and completely legal under our revered justice system! Those cunning bastards!

Well, we sure showed them! Now they know that Sweden will NEVER cave to outside pressure to change our laws or culture... wait...

How common is underage weddings and pedophilia in swedish culture?

 

[AdequateSubject]

This article isn't talking about marriage between two people under the age 18. It's talking about adults marrying children. Good strawman though.

Thanks! The strawman gets a bad rep, but It's not a widely used rhetorical trick for nothing.

How common is underage weddings and pedophilia in swedish culture?

Dunno, since it was legal they weren't technically underage. Pedophilia is about average, I would guess.

 

[Skinpop]

Here in Sweden, marriage between two people under 18 was legal under special circumstances until 2014.

This was completely uncontroversial until we learned that some foreigners were doing it. Outrage ensued! Not only did these nasty foreigners bring this horrible, backwards cultural practice into our country. They did it right under our noses by having it be coincidentally identical to one of our own cultural practices, and completely legal under our revered justice system! Those cunning bastards!

Well, we sure showed them! Now they know that Sweden will NEVER cave to outside pressure to change our laws or culture... wait...

Are you trying to say that laws aren't perfect and that circumstances change?

How common is underage weddings and pedophilia in swedish culture?

it's illegal now, but before 2014 a handful approved cases/year, the majority being 17 year old girls. There would be an investigation and so on. Personally I'm happy they removed it but it's not like underage marriage was prevalent or an easy thing to get approved.

edit: 20 was way to high. 0 in 2012. 2 in 2011.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Here in Sweden, marriage between two people under 18 was legal under special circumstances until 2014.

This was completely uncontroversial until we learned that some foreigners were doing it. Outrage ensued! Not only did these nasty foreigners bring this horrible, backwards cultural practice into our country. They did it right under our noses by having it be coincidentally identical to one of our own cultural practices, and completely legal under our revered justice system! Those cunning bastards!

Well, we sure showed them! Now they know that Sweden will NEVER cave to outside pressure to change our laws or culture... wait...

Nice narrative. Too bad the official one is a bit more nuanced and primarily about forced marriage. A quick Google search http://www.government.se/49b75a/con...on-against-forced-marriage-and-child-marriage

 

[King Gilga]

It's paedophilia. The parents should be sent back.

True and true.

 

[D4Danger]

We've seen what can happen when the authorities pussyfoot around in the name of political correctness in these situations. The idea that the law is flexible is ridiculous.

 

[AdequateSubject]

Are you trying to say that laws aren't perfect and that circumstances change?

I would never! That would be cultural relativism!

 

[Drencrom]

Thanks! The strawman gets a bad rep, but It's not a widely used rhetorical trick for nothing

I would never! That would be cultural relativism!

Okay, so you're just trolling and pretended that you didn't know this exemption was removed to prevent forced marriage between adults and an underaged children? Do you just want to look like a jackass or do you really think forced marriage between adults and children was acceptable and a part of our culture before immigrants came here?

 

[Sinfamy]

Clear cut case of regressive mentality.
Fuck this stone age shit.

 

[Strax]

Yikes at southern Europe. And Iceland. What are you doing, ice bros?

That number is kind of false. If you are 14-15 years old you can have sex with someone who is 14 years old. If you are 16 years old you can't have sex with someone who is 14 years old. This applies to every year until you are 18. You can have sex with a person one year younger then you.

Also if you want to get married before you turn 18 years old you have to get approved by the department of justice.