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JGS

Banned
So two ladies came to my house. They gave me kingdom calling watch tower magazine. They were from Jewowah witness. They were explaining everything to me but one of thing they said that they are not considered christian and they are not liked by Catholics is it true? Also She said they do not believe Jesus was a son of god.
They weren't really Jehovah's Witnesses then. If you open up the magazine, it almost always contains an article that indicates that Jesus is God's son. What they don't believe is the trinity where God and Jesus are the same.

The Catholics (& others) persecuted Jehovah's Witnesses in the past for their stands on neutrality and their condemnation of the Catholic Church for their involvement in political affairs. I'm not sure if that is still the case, but some countries like France, Greece, & Russia have continued to make it hard for them to preach.
Given certain sects of Christianity and many Christian individuals focus on a narrow range of verses while ignoring or downplaying most of the rest, it is understandable that those unfamiliar with the Bible might have the wrong idea about just how weighty a text it is.
Well there are always skeptics that bring those verses to our attention. As mentioned, we all have our favorites- believers and non-believers alike.

I believe that most Christian organizations encourage reading of the Bible- good and "bad", but I suppose a sect can preach anything. I'm not sure I have ever heard an atheist encourage reading the whole Bible as much as they use focus verses to prove how the whole Bible is from the [non-existent] Devil. Again, we all have our favorites though.
 
They weren't really Jehovah's Witnesses then. If you open up the magazine, it almost always contains an article that indicates that Jesus is God's son. What they don't believe is the trinity where God and Jesus are the same.

The Catholics (& others) persecuted Jehovah's Witnesses in the past for their stands on neutrality and their condemnation of the Catholic Church for their involvement in political affairs. I'm not sure if that is still the case, but some countries like France, Greece, & Russia have continued to make it hard for them to preach.
Well there are always skeptics that bring those verses to our attention. As mentioned, we all have our favorites- believers and non-believers alike.

I believe that most Christian organizations encourage reading of the Bible- good and "bad", but I suppose a sect can preach anything. I'm not sure I have ever heard an atheist encourage reading the whole Bible as much as they use focus verses to prove how the whole Bible is from the [non-existent] Devil. Again, we all have our favorites though.


Oh they were. This was the magazine not exact edition but you get the idea.

loVrj.jpg
 

Chaplain

Member
So two ladies came to my house. They gave me kingdom calling watch tower magazine. They were from Jewowah witness. They were explaining everything to me but one of thing they said that they are not considered christian and they are not liked by Catholics is it true? Also She said they do not believe Jesus was a son of god.

They are not Christians. They are what the Christian's call a Cult. Here is a list of various cults and how they compare to what the Bible teaches.

377019_2611059509743_1052646049_2807827_1551318435_n.jpg
 

JGS

Banned
They are not Christians. They are what the Christian's call a Cult. Here is a list of various cults and how they compare to what the Bible teaches.

377019_2611059509743_1052646049_2807827_1551318435_n.jpg
Although you're incorrect, that was only part of what he was asking.

From your knowledge of Catholicism and of Jehovah's Witnesses, are they hated by Catholics (Are Catholics Christians?) &/or don't believe Jesus is God's son. I would think the reason that they are a cult to you is that they do believe Jesus is God's son.
 

Chaplain

Member
I would think the reason that they are a cult to you is that they do believe Jesus is God's son.

They say, on their official sight, that Michael is Jesus.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_11.htm

The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

More information showing that the name Michael applies to God’s Son is found in Volume 2, pages 393-4, of Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

This is not the Jesus of the Bible.

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”

God also said,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”
 

JGS

Banned
They say, on their official sight, that Michael is Jesus.



This is not the Jesus of the Bible.

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”

God also said,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”
So are you saying that that they are lying by saying that Jesus is God's son (not equal to God) or that they are lying by saying Jesus is Michael or that they are lying by saying they follow Jesus and are Christians? At this point, you have to believe that they are lying and not just misunderstood, given what they mention on their website.

I think the paragraph you mentioned makes sense. Michael isn't just an angel. He's an archangel which makes him at least as unique as Jesus since no one else is described as such which is why it makes sense that michael and Jesus are one and the same.

I was also looking at the chart and it seems to be incorrect. Jehovah's Witnesses use the Bible and use other publications to discuss the Bible. However, under Christianity, it says the Bible only is used. Does this mean that Christianity is not supposed to use texts that discuss the Bible?
 
They are not Christians. They are what the Christian's call a Cult.

what if the tables were turned, and there were a billion Jehova's Witnessess and only a few million, let's say Protestants, who would be the cult then..?

the "real" Christians only really have the leverage to call Jehova's Witnessess a cult because of a size difference, a dominant position of power.. but in any case it's pretty damn obnoxious, one Christian sect thinking they're so much better than another. a "cult" is an extremely loaded word, nothing positive about it at all. yet you throw it around casually like that to negatively label a large group of people who are not that different from you....

tell me seriously, how exactly is Jehova's Witnessess a cult, but for example Catholicism isn't? they both add things to their religious doctrine and rituals etc, that aren't from the Bible. what is the significant difference besides size of membership, that makes Catholicism a legit religion and the other just a cult?
 

Esiquio

Member
what if the tables were turned, and there were a billion Jehova's Witnessess and only a few million, let's say Protestants, who would be the cult then..?

the "real" Christians only really have the leverage to call Jehova's Witnessess a cult because of a size difference, a dominant position of power.. but in any case it's pretty damn obnoxious, one Christian sect thinking they're so much better than another. a "cult" is an extremely loaded word, nothing positive about it at all. yet you throw it around casually like that to negatively label a large group of people who are not that different from you....

tell me seriously, how exactly is Jehova's Witnessess a cult, but for example Catholicism isn't? they both add things to their religious doctrine and rituals etc, that aren't from the Bible. what is the significant difference besides size of membership, that makes Catholicism a legit religion and the other just a cult?

This is a pretty good post and I agree with how you came to your conclusion. I will say that some Christians DO think of Catholicism as a cult, at least to a certain extent. Each "cult" has it's varying degrees, though. Some are more controlling and have more non-Biblical canon than others.

The main point you can't forget, though, is that you are saved through Jesus. Pretty much the most important thing in the entire Bible, and it's the one thing that IS changed or altered in one way or another in each cult. Sometimes it's worded in a way that may be confusing due to same terms with different meanings being used, e.g. LDS, but if you change that, you change everything.
 
This is a pretty good post and I agree with how you came to your conclusion. I will say that some Christians DO think of Catholicism as a cult, at least to a certain extent. Each "cult" has it's varying degrees, though. Some are more controlling and have more non-Biblical canon than others.

The main point you can't forget, though, is that you are saved through Jesus. Pretty much the most important thing in the entire Bible, and it's the one thing that IS changed or altered in one way or another in each cult. Sometimes it's worded in a way that may be confusing due to same terms with different meanings being used, e.g. LDS, but if you change that, you change everything.

heh thanks for the compliment, i usually feel pretty bad about my posts! i often end up making no sense or go on a hyperbolic rant, lol.

but hmm, is Catholicism really considered a cult by some Christians? not many i would assume? would they call it a cult to the believers' faces, or do they just use the word behind their backs..? even i as an atheist would never say to any Christian that they belong to a cult, at least not seriously. it goes a bit too far IMO, is not constructive in any way, just purely hurtful. heck, i don't think i'd even use the word cult when discussing religion(s) with my atheist friends. it just isn't a fair description.
 

Fedos

Member
heh thanks for the compliment, i usually feel pretty bad about my posts! i often end up making no sense or go on a hyperbolic rant, lol.

but hmm, is Catholicism really considered a cult by some Christians? not many i would assume? would they call it a cult to the believers' faces, or do they just use the word behind their backs..? even i as an atheist would never say to any Christian that they belong to a cult, at least not seriously. it goes a bit too far IMO, is not constructive in any way, just purely hurtful. heck, i don't think i'd even use the word cult when discussing religion(s) with my atheist friends. it just isn't a fair description.

John Ankerberg on his show has hosted debates with Roman Catholic priests for instance about key Christian doctrines like justification (declared righteous) by faith alone, and that we are saved by grace (God's unmerited favor) through faith in Christ, and that faith itself is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
 

Chaplain

Member
tell me seriously, how exactly is Jehova's Witnessess a cult, but for example Catholicism isn't? what is the significant difference besides size of membership, that makes Catholicism a legit religion and the other just a cult?

It is quite simple. All cults attack the deity of Jesus. They make Him less than He is. Who is He? He is God. And if you don’t believe that, according to Romans 10:9-10, you can’t be saved.

Cults have staked out a horrible position in saying that God didn’t die for us, but that He created a Being to take the hit, to pay the price, to shed His blood.

The Bible says that God was in Christ reconciling the world (2 Corinthians 5:19). He didn’t create a Being other than Himself to pay the price, to go into the fire, to take the heat of the Cross. His name, Isaiah tells us, shall be both Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace (9:6). God didn’t create Someone to do the work of salvation. God Himself became a Man. God was in the Son. That’s why a man can’t be saved if he doesn’t believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, that Jesus Christ is God.
 

Baconbitz

Banned
I've been at this point in my life with my religion for a while and am wondering is there a next step. I'm at the point where I don't follow a specific "chrstian" religion because I know that every religion has that negative belief that I might not agree with. So, I don't see a reason to follow a specific "Christian based" religion for that reason. But, like I said earlier Is there a next step?
 
It is quite simple. All cults attack the deity of Jesus. They make Him less than He is. Who is He? He is God. And if you don’t believe that, according to Romans 10:9-10, you can’t be saved.

Cults have staked out a horrible position in saying that God didn’t die for us, but that He created a Being to take the hit, to pay the price, to shed His blood.

The Bible says that God was in Christ reconciling the world (2 Corinthians 5:19). He didn’t create a Being other than Himself to pay the price, to go into the fire, to take the heat of the Cross. His name, Isaiah tells us, shall be both Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace (9:6). God didn’t create Someone to do the work of salvation. God Himself became a Man. God was in the Son. That’s why a man can’t be saved if he doesn’t believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, that Jesus Christ is God.

so basically every other religion is a cult too? gotcha.. how convenient for you, to belong to the only religion that isn't a cult :)

serious question: are you honest about your views when you talk with people who believe differently, can you say to their face that they belong to a cult and that your religion is better?

I've been at this point in my life with my religion for a while and am wondering is there a next step. I'm at the point where I don't follow a specific "chrstian" religion because I know that every religion has that negative belief that I might not agree with. So, I don't see a reason to follow a specific "Christian based" religion for that reason. But, like I said earlier Is there a next step?

there's only one reasonable step to make: embrace the mystery of not knowing.

edit: btw people, if you think i'm shitting on the thread, tell me.... i don't mean to.
 
Can someone explain to me the stance towards polygamy in the Old Covenant in contrast to the New Covenant. I was under the impression that several prominent figures in the Old Testament did have more than one wife but I've recently come across the perspective that in the cases they did, it was frowned upon by God (not in the NT but the OT itself).
 
Can someone explain to me the stance towards polygamy in the Old Covenant in contrast to the New Covenant. I was under the impression that several prominent figures in the Old Testament did have more than one wife but I've recently come across the perspective that in the cases they did, it was frowned upon by God (not in the NT but the OT itself).

That's a tough nut to crack and welcome any insight from others - I've researched it pretty extensively but I think the "God frowned upon it" argument is bad apologetics.

In same cases yes, some cases no, some cases the Bible doesn't say anything altogether e.g. Solomon and his concubines we're expected to assume he didn't have sex with lol.
 

Chaplain

Member
Can someone explain to me the stance towards polygamy in the Old Covenant in contrast to the New Covenant. I was under the impression that several prominent figures in the Old Testament did have more than one wife but I've recently come across the perspective that in the cases they did, it was frowned upon by God (not in the NT but the OT itself).

Polygamy is not condoned by the Bible, but simply reported as what was taking place. It is true that the Old Testament Law of God contains regulations concerning a man having more than one wife. This, however, was not an indication of God’s approval. Rather, God was simply regulating an always-difficult situation. Without exception, wherever you see polygamy in Scripture, it always resulted in problems for those involved in it. Below is an example of this problem:

"Now King Solomon loved many foreign women. Besides Pharaoh’s daughter, he married women from Moab, Ammon, Edom, Sidon, and from among the Hittites. The Lord had clearly instructed the people of Israel, ‘You must not marry them, because they will turn your hearts to their gods.’ Yet Solomon insisted on loving them anyway. He had 700 wives of royal birth and 300 concubines. And in fact, they did turn his heart away from the Lord.

In Solomon’s old age, they turned his heart to worship other gods instead of being completely faithful to the Lord his God, as his father, David, had been. Solomon worshiped Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech, the detestable god of the Ammonites. In this way, Solomon did what was evil in the Lord’s sight; he refused to follow the Lord completely, as his father, David, had done."

Jesus said, "Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be. No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other."

Our hearts are constructed in such a way that we cannot be in love with two people simultaneously. We might think we can. The world might say we can. But the Bible says it can’t be done. We can’t serve two masters. And this is the problem with polygamy, or with any relationship with the opposite sex outside of marriage.

Jesus said God's original design has always been for one man and one woman to come together and be one.

“Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’ And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”
 

KodMoS

Banned
I ignore certain points because I would be sitting here all day responding to each of your lies about Jesus. The Bible, from cover to cover, says Jesus is the God of the entire Bible. The only people, of faith, that do not agree with this statement are Jehovah Witnesses, Mormon's or unbelievers.

According to you, translations are inaccurate when it comes to the deity of Christ. So, God made a huge mistake by not making everyone read and speak Greek because people are now deceived into believing a lie from Satan. I believe that is what you continue to hint at by saying it doesn't say that in original Greek language. My professors at the seminary I attend, who speak Greek, do not have a problem with Jesus being God because the Bible says Jesus is God (God's Son who always existed).

You do not believe what is in the Bible about Jesus being God. That is your choice. Christian dogma, from the beginning, has said that Jesus is the God of the Bible.

Thanks for your time.


No it doesn't say Jesus is God, that's just your false interpretation of scripture. All I'm doing is showing you scripture. You choose to ignore and not respond to scriptural facts because you cannot defend your beliefs when scripture contradicts your false doctrine.

Look, you're not the first person I debated with. I debated with those who claim to have knowledge of Greek, have claim to be pastors ect. and all simply dodge points and scriptures that disprove their doctrine. The truth cannot be ignored, and it will stand. False doctrine will always fall. Those who support them cannot find a logical answer to respond because it's not based on truth.

The Greek is not the real problem. The problem is those who falsely translate God's word. The translations I discussed even backed up by Trinitarian scholars. Some say scriptures such as John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus being called God but instead, Godlike based on John's use of the Greek word thoes without the indefinite article.

The problem is that you're telling me Jesus is God, when scripture shows that he is not. It's a man made doctrine that is not explained in the bible.





John 17:3

English Standard Version (ESV)
3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.



Jesus prays to his father and calls him the only true God. This excludes anyone else from being the only true God. Trintiarians can twist Jesus words here but that's not going to help. He says the only true God AND Jesus Christ. There can only be only one true God.


You can believe the Trinity if you want but it's not a Christian doctrine.
 

JGS

Banned
Can someone explain to me the stance towards polygamy in the Old Covenant in contrast to the New Covenant. I was under the impression that several prominent figures in the Old Testament did have more than one wife but I've recently come across the perspective that in the cases they did, it was frowned upon by God (not in the NT but the OT itself).
Polygamy was allowed in patriarchal times and during the Israel's time although most instances seem to indicate that people had one wife. The intent all along was for monogamous relationships- hence only Adam & Eve.

However, God allowed for multiple wives in the context of child bearing and also for bride price arrangements. For example, Jacob was supposed to marry Rachel, but was tricked into marry Leah before marrying Rachel. Overall, there was not a condemnation of polygamy.

In the NT, things reverted back to their true intent since problems often developed when there was more than one wife anyway.
EDIT: That makes it sound like that was the main reason. The main reason is because marriage was always meant to be between a man and woman and no additional because. The problems resulting were just verification that spouses don't like to share.

Also, Christianity was not about growth of a nation but growth of a religion without regard to nationality. Because baptism was voluntary, it was not necessary to children to grow it. The growth would come through willingness. So although Christians weren't discouraged to have kids, it wasn't cheerleaded either (Neither was marriage). So the point of polygamy under the law was greatly diminished

Something that you said is what makes the difference- prominent people are the ones who usually had more than one wife and it usually was before Jerusalem's captivity in Babylon. It was practically a non-issue by the time Christianity came about & I'm not even sure if it was addressed at all except to make it official.
 

Chaplain

Member
Subjects discussed in this study:

Do we become disembodied spirits when we die?
What does the Bible teach about soul sleep?
What is the the judgment, or bema seat of Christ?
Why did the fear of the Lord motivate Paul in ministry?
Christ's love should be what motivates us to serve God and others.
Not regarding Christians from a purely human point of view.
If any person is born again, in Christ, they are a new creation.
The third motivating reason for Paul’s ministry was the joy of service.
Jesus was our sin offering.


2 Corinthians 5
 

KodMoS

Banned
I appreciate your time in responding, but I will stick with what the Bible teaches.

40971_1493725537092_1052646049_1454765_3876101_n.jpg

We already covered several of these scriptures before. It was obviously you only came up with responses to scripture that you were comfortable answering to. The point, you're quick to respond in detail when someone asks question or says Jesus not God without posting scripture. However, when someone starts posting scripture and refutes your argument, you have absolutely nothing to say to defend yourself. That's what I've seen between you and many other Trinitarians. Sure some may come up with an response but most of them are not even logical or directed to the point (evasive answers).

There's just a real problem if one cannot defend their beliefs, especially if they're trying to debate.
 

JGS

Banned
I decided to just do one line of the chart. Although it looks like a lot of Scriptures, it's not in the context of all that's being cut to prove the trinity. I then decided to actually read the things and come up confused. These are all King james since I'm not sure where the chart is from or what version is being used, but King James seems to be used for verification a lot given John 1:1 plus many versions are translated from KJV rather than orginal texts:

Phillipians 1:2:
2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 1:1, 14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 2:9
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Acts 5:3, 4
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Not wasting time getting into another trinity discussion, but i am curious as to if you truly can't see why there isn't a reason for confusion based just on one line of the charted verses (not including the verses either before and/or after)?
 

Emwitus

Member
I'm a Christian myself. Don't agree with trinity cause never felt convicted of it. But I don't belong to any denomination either. I do believe in this tho. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For me, I feel like this is one of the most important part. Just thought is share. I've never thought arguing about what God is....is very safe because he is beyond our comprehension.So I try to stay away from it. My 2 cents.
 
The problem is that you're telling me Jesus is God, when scripture shows that he is not. It's a man made doctrine that is not explained in the bible.





John 17:3

English Standard Version (ESV)
3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

I think the guy who came to my house showed me this and some other verses. He was trying to relate me saying we also believe Jesus was messenger/ prophet of god like muslims. We talked for quite a while. I think they will come back again. they already came 2 times. Any questions you guys want to ask them?
 

KodMoS

Banned
I think the guy who came to my house showed me this and some other verses. He was trying to relate me saying we also believe Jesus was messenger/ prophet of god like muslims. We talked for quite a while. I think they will come back again. they already came 2 times. Any questions you guys want to ask them?
I seen your post before and it appears that they're not Jehovah's Witnesses. It doesn't really matter to me. I'm not into religion, I'm just usually discuss biblical doctrines.
 

JGS

Banned
I thought id find people in here talking about Daniel or revelation.....disappointed :(
Although the thread was really sorta hijacked by the trinity debate (Sorry), but you're free to discuss anything. Intorducing it often results in lots of discussion.

Unfortunately I'm ill equipped to start up Revelation (Prophecies in general are so open for interpretation once they leave Bible times) and there are tons of options with Daniel.
 

Chaplain

Member
There's just a real problem if one cannot defend their beliefs, especially if they're trying to debate.

I can defend my beliefs, but the Bible says to not get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights or debates.

My responsibility to the Lord is to share His truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
 

KodMoS

Banned
I can defend my beliefs, but the Bible says to not get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights or debates.

My responsibility to the Lord is to share His truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
You're not getting my point. We were debating scripture in our previous conversation. I asked you to respond to my points and scripture yet you ignored the scriptures that I quoted and continued to use other scriptures that you believe support your doctrine. Now you're saying you don't want to discuss scripture.

I basically started discussing why I believe the Trinity is false and then you started debating with me on why it's true. You wanted to debate. So, since that's the case, don't debate if you cannot have two way conversation. I'll answer any questions as long as you answer mine.
 

JGS

Banned
Is there any desire from the Christian world to have a theocratic state as opposed to a secular society
Depends on the Christian. I don't think it's possible to implement, so no. It's much easier to simply be a Christian than form a nation around it where nationalism will trump worship anyway.
 

Emwitus

Member
You're not getting my point. We were debating scripture in our previous conversation. I asked you to respond to my points and scripture yet you ignored the scriptures that I quoted and continued to use other scriptures that you believe support your doctrine. Now you're saying you don't want to discuss scripture.

I basically started discussing why I believe the Trinity is false and then you started debating with me on why it's true. You wanted to debate. So, since that's the case, don't debate if you cannot have two way conversation. I'll answer any questions as long as you answer mine.

I think what Game analyst was trying to say was, Argument, especially when it comes to the nature of God and aspects of the trinity, is a very touchy and hard to tread ground subject especially if you are christian. Simply put we are told that he is beyond our comprehension. As christian myself, i feel its better to try and understand WHO he is, than WHAT he is.
 

KodMoS

Banned
I think what Game analyst was trying to say was, Argument, especially when it comes to the nature of God and aspects of the trinity, is a very touchy and hard to tread ground subject especially if you are christian. Simply put we are told that he is beyond our comprehension. As christian myself, i feel its better to try and understand WHO he is, than WHAT he is.

Yeah I hear people say that his beyond our understanding, but I don't know it's not. It's true that we will not know everything about God but we can be sure that he is not a Trinity. God, Jesus and his followers explain who God is, that he is the Father only. Jesus also makes a distinguished between him and God, which indicates Jesus never taught or believed in the Trinity.

John 14:1
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.


Scripture often quoted by Trinitarians is John 10:30

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

They claim this prove Jesus was part of the Trinity. Yet in John 17:11, we find what Jesus actually meant.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

This is the kind of deception you find in the doctrine.It was created by man which is clearly not taught in the Bible.
 

JGS

Banned
I think what Game analyst was trying to say was, Argument, especially when it comes to the nature of God and aspects of the trinity, is a very touchy and hard to tread ground subject especially if you are christian. Simply put we are told that he is beyond our comprehension. As christian myself, i feel its better to try and understand WHO he is, than WHAT he is.
I disagree about Game Analyst's reasoning (& others). He has made it pretty clear that the trinity itself is not a touchy subject at all. It is fact and if you don't believe in it then you aren't Christian. That is crystal clear in his mind and he has let it be known. The mystery only comes up when he is asked to explain it.

To be a part of a belief system that can pick and choose who is Christian based on a doctrine Jesus himself didn't believe in should expect some scrutiny. That scrutiny should be met with answers not verse links since non-trinitarians have those too.
 

Emwitus

Member
I disagree about Game Analyst's reasoning (& others). He has made it pretty clear that the trinity itself is not a touchy subject at all. It is fact and if you don't believe in it then you aren't Christian. That is crystal clear in his mind and he has let it be known. The mystery only comes up when he is asked to explain it.

To be a part of a belief system that can pick and choose who is Christians based on a doctrine Jesus himself didn't believe in should expect some scrutiny. That scrutiny should be met with answer not verse links since non-trinitarians have those too.

I understand what you both mean. I have my own opinions on the subject but every single time i have got into a discussion it has always lead to a full fledged argument which pretty much leads nowhere. I guess, game analyst has no issue with that it seems. For me, personally, i do not agree with the doctrine of the trinity itself but i try to stay away from the subject as much as i can. Honestly, it scares me, since i wouldn't want to lead someone astray. Most of the times i quote verses, ask the other person to read them and pray on it, then come to his own conclusion. God is not an author of confusion. I believe if you truly seek to know the truth and ask God to reveal it to you, you will come to your own conclusion whatever it is.Stay blessed people :)
 
Some Christians say erecting a Christmas tree is replicating a pagan worship that involved trees, and with the date going back to winter solstice celebrations I was wondering what the debate of this within Christian circles
 

Chaplain

Member
Yeah I hear people say that his beyond our understanding, but I don't know it's not. It's true that we will not know everything about God but we can be sure that he is not a Trinity. God, Jesus and his followers explain who God is, that he is the Father only. Jesus also makes a distinguished between him and God, which indicates Jesus never taught or believed in the Trinity.

This is the kind of deception you find in the doctrine.It was created by man which is clearly not taught in the Bible.

This article sheds more light on your misunderstanding of God's Word:

The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

The Trinity

God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God.

Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Is there subordination in the Trinity?

There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity, but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). Of course Jesus already is King, but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different than the one who sent him.

Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.

Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have done, however, is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.

It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical:

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Eph. 4:4-7, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
 

JGS

Banned
Is there subordination in the Trinity?
This part was kind of interesting. If Jesus is subordinate, then why is it a "must" that he remain equal? It seems like the guy is saying that Jesus is equal on the basis of having the same qualities as God. However, the writer is acknowledging that the abilities and ranking are not the same at all. Being one with something is not the same thing as being that something.
 
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