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[hellclerk]

The problem with this belief is that Jesus, Paul, James, Jude, John and just about every other New Testament writers says he is real and behind all evil. Jesus and Paul both said he is the ruler and god of Earth.

Aside from a general grain of salt I take when reading Paul, and in addition to the fact that I don't pay any heed to gnostic gospels, I recall no instance of Jesus ever doing more than referencing Satan ("Get behind me Satan", temptations in the desert, etc.).

Anything to back this up that isn't John's Theology? Because the concept of Satan being "ruler and god of Earth" is quite laughable from a theological perspective.

 

[Chaplain]

That's what I meant.
Usual Christian belief dictates that we were made in gods image, and prior to the fall were similarly perfect.
However, if were perfect (as in, we were running off the template god designed for us) prior
to the fall, how did we suddenly decide to directly ignore God?
Apologies for the flawed capitalisation.

The Bible never says they were perfect. The Bible says they were innocent. Only Jesus was perfect.

 

[Dice]

Short videos that answer various questions about Christianity:

You should clarify that as Protestant Evangelistic Christianity. They are even more narrow than that, but when you hit that level of distinction, the classification in itself requires educating the audience.

 

[Necromanti]

By loving you are expressing you faith far more than any amount of reading or scripture could possibly compare. Hence charity transcending faith. The Bible is the manual, but people spend too much time reading the manual rather than doing what the manual makes very clear that you should do.

If I was a Christian, this is what I would believe. Surely someone doing good (and "living His word"), regardless of their beliefs, would be worthy of heaven. It is a lot easier to just talk/think about doing something instead of practicing what you may preach. That is why I do not understand why faith would be more important versus loving and "doing good".

On a tangential note, could someone tell me what denomination an organization like The Christ Church of Kirkland would fall under?

 

[SonnyBoy]

True charity transcends faith.

I don't see the important in saying that one is more important than the other. They're both instrumental.

How many people are truly going to be charitable if they don't have faith that God will supply their needs? I've seen countless people not aid others because they put their own needs first. I've also seen others put someone else's needs before their own and use their faith in God to replenish what was given.

 

[AceBandage]

That's what I meant.
Usual Christian belief dictates that we were made in gods image, and prior to the fall were similarly perfect.
However, if were perfect (as in, we were running off the template god designed for us) prior
to the fall, how did we suddenly decide to directly ignore God?
Apologies for the flawed capitalisation.

Because the gift of free will means we are inherently not perfect in our lives. We have the choice to do good or evil.
We were created perfectly, but we do not always live perfectly.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Great thread. My father will be pleased.

Should you not also be pleased

 

[Chaplain]

Anything to back this up that isn't John's Theology? Because the concept of Satan being "ruler and god of Earth" is quite laughable from a theological perspective.

John 12:31
The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.

 

[JohnTinker]

southern baptist checking in.

to stir the pot further, ideas on megachurches?

 

[Chaplain]

You should clarify that as Protestant Evangelistic Christianity. They are even more narrow than that, but when you hit that level of distinction, the classification in itself requires educating the audience.

Biblical Christianity is what those videos are centered all about.

 

[Snuggles]

I've always found this to be a confused statement, because I'm not sure what people are asking. I believe whatever the accounts presume themselves to be. Psalms and Lamentations are poetic books. Leviticus is legislation. Obadiah is argument. Joshua is history. Where there's ambiguity in the art (Job, the Genesis creation account), I respect difference in opinion and am less hard on exegesis.

You're clearly much more informed about the contents of the Bible than I am, despite the fact that I was put through Christian school until I was 14, but I guess I was referring to events like the Flood, David & Goliath, people living hundreds of years and so on. And I'm not trying to subtly belittle anyone with that, I'm just curious about how some of you guys interpret those stories, if you take them as moral fables or historical fact.

 

[Dice]

Biblical Christianity is what those videos are centered all about.

"Biblical Christianity" is a Protestant Evangelical term.

 

[Chaplain]

If I was a Christian, this is what I would believe. Surely someone doing good (and "living His word"), regardless of their beliefs, would be worthy of heaven. It is a lot easier to just talk/think about doing something instead of practicing what you may preach. That is why I do not understand why faith would be more important versus loving and "doing good".

Because Jesus said that we are not perfect and need God's Spirit in us to live with God. No one can have God's Spirit apart from repenting from their sins and accepting Jesus' payment for all of the sins they have committed (past, present and future).

If we could get into heaven by our own works, then Jesus would have never come. God knew we couldn't get into heaven without Jesus.

 

[SonnyBoy]

That is why I do not understand why faith would be more important versus loving and "doing good".

Here's an example.

Let's say that you need $200 to pay your rent. You ask me for $200 and I know that I may not be able to cover my basic needs if I do this favor for you. Most people would say that it's dumb or irresponsible to help you out. I understand that. lol. But others may have faith in God that they can provide your need and that God will make due for them and all will be will.

 

[Chaplain]

"Biblical Christianity" is a Protestant Evangelical term.

As Jesus said,

"‘People do not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

“My mother and my brothers are all those who hear God’s word and obey it.”

 

[TacticalFox88]

The idea of you saying "I accept Jesus in my heart" and some spirit coming to save you is absurd. Sure you have to be "genuine" but come on!

 

[foodtaster]

I don't see the important in saying that one is more important than the other. They're both instrumental.

How many people are truly going to be charitable if they don't have faith that God will supply their needs? I've seen countless people not aid others because they put their own needs first. I've also seen others put someone else's needs before their own and use their faith in God to replenish what was given.

If you need God to be charitable, then that is fine. It still does not change the fact that charity is above faith. Faith is simply the catalyst. The catalyst to the reaction that is love. I cannot stress this enough. If one were ignorant completely of God, but loved truly and absolutely, do you think that he would not get into Heaven?

 

[daffy]

Oh awesome! Hopefully we can split the trolls evenly between here and the My Little Pony thread

Also, I just downloaded the Why Worry [Matthew] quote wallpaper. Beautiful.

 

[AceBandage]

You're clearly much more informed about the contents of the Bible than I am, despite the fact that I was put through Christian school until I was 14, but I guess I was referring to events like the Flood, David & Goliath, people living hundreds of years and so on. And I'm not trying to subtly belittle anyone with that, I'm just curious about how some of you guys interpret those stories, if you take them as moral fables or historical fact.

The flood was likely an actual event, and the Bible is not the only literature to reference is.
Though, it probably wasn't the entire world, just the known (at the time) world.
David and Golith and similar stories (like Samson) are impossible to know. There is nothing logically impossible about them being true, though as with all stories that are told through spoken word, the truth would of course be embellished.
As for living hundreds of years, that could also be possible. Even without taking into account the power of God flowing through you to give you long life, a nutrient rich environment with little to no pollution would certainly maintain one's health pretty well.

 

[hellclerk]

John 12:31
The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.

Yeah, the Gospel according to John is a theology. Taking it literally off the bat is foolish. Like I said before, Satan is simply a personification of an emptiness of God's love, i.e., evil. Would you disagree that the darkness in men's hearts ruled the "world" as in the world of men at the time of this writing, such as with the Roman Empire and the corruption of it? That's my point. John's Gospel is written to an audience, and rather than say "our governors are douchebags, but they won't be douchebags much longer!" the Gospel provided it through the lens of religious tradition.

 

[Chaplain]

The idea of you saying "I accept Jesus in my heart" and some spirit coming to save you is absurd. Sure you have to be "genuine" but come on!

It takes faith to believe what God said. You must make a choice about who do you believe Jesus really is. You have freewill to either believe what he said about life or not.

 

[jintek]

Personally, I take my life lessons from the merciful Lord Gary Busey.

In seriousness, I have no idea how people can take any religion and consider it relevant and useful for life in 2011. But I was raised Christian so go figure.

 

[AceBandage]

Personally, I take my life lessons from the merciful Lord Gary Busey.

In seriousness, I have idea how people can take any religion and consider it relevant and useful for life in 2011. But I was raised Christian so go figure.

I always find this interesting.
The majority of people that seem to hate religion (particularly Christianity) are usually people that were force to go to church as children, and probably have one or two bad experiences there (or just hated going), and the true underlying hatred usually has nothing to do with the religion itself, even if they won't admit it.

 

[Dice]

As Jesus said,

"‘People do not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

“My mother and my brothers are all those who hear God’s word and obey it.”

And the Orthodox and Catholics would say the Protestants are missing quite a bit of those words in their bible. You can't simplify complex issues of denominational biases in two small Jesus quotes.

I'm not trying to discredit what you are sharing, I'm simply saying that you can't claim them as THE central perspective of Christianity when those with whom they affiliate don't even amount to 1/3 of the Christian populace.

 

[Chaplain]

Yeah, the Gospel according to John is a theology. Taking it literally off the bat is foolish. Like I said before, Satan is simply a personification of an emptiness of God's love, i.e., evil. Would you disagree that the darkness in men's hearts ruled the "world" as in the world of men at the time of this writing, such as with the Roman Empire and the corruption of it? That's my point. John's Gospel is written to an audience, and rather than say "our governors are douchebags, but they won't be douchebags much longer!" the Gospel provided it through the lens of religious tradition.

I do see where you are coming from. As for me and my family, we believe God's Word to be inspired. God Word says what it means and means what it says. That is my choice and what I believe.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

I have been raise as a Maronite Catholic. I am not religious any more. I still live by love thy neighbor policy. I dislike how churches some use the bible for their own means. I also do not like how people can preach hate and intolerance in the name of Christ. A religion about peace, forgiveness and love, have been hijacked by people who preach intolerance. I also dislike how people want to enforce their faith on others.
Edit: It is because of those i am not religious anymore.

 

[SonnyBoy]

If you need God to be charitable, then that is fine. It still does not change the fact that charity is above faith. Faith is simply the catalyst. The catalyst to the reaction that is love. I cannot stress this enough. If one were ignorant completely of God, but loved truly and absolutely, do you think that he would not get into Heaven?

I don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying. I did not say that you need God to be charitable.

I don't believe that people are capable of loving truly and absolutely. Biblical principles work to bring the Love of God into our lives, a love which is perfect and absolute. As humans, outside of God, we are not capable of that. We judge, we divide, we hate.

 

[TacticalFox88]

It takes faith to believe what God said. You must make a choice about who do you believe Jesus really is. You have freewill to either believe what he said about life or not.

Tell me why I should beleive the words of a deity who describes himself as "jealous" and even permits acts of insane violence and barbarism?

 

[zankara]

So I have pretty much ignored the Christian music scene for years. Anyone have any recommendations?

 

[SonnyBoy]

I still live by love thy neighbor policy.

Which happens to be the greatest commandment.

 

[Chaplain]

And the Orthodox and Catholics would say the Protestants are missing quite a bit of those words in their bible. You can't simplify complex issues of denominational biases in two small Jesus quotes.

I'm not trying to discredit what you are sharing, I'm simply saying that you can't claim them as THE central perspective of Christianity when those with whom they affiliate don't even amount to 1/3 of the Christian populace.

Jesus said that many people will not make it in to heaven even though they said they were Christians. He said many people are deceived and not really God's children. People will be identified by their actions if they are truly his children or not. If people really are God's children, they will live how Christ lived. Focused on God, His Word and others.

 

[AceBandage]

Tell me why I should beleive the words of a deity who describes himself as "jealous" and even permits acts of insane violence and barbarism?

Whoo boy... and things were going so well with good discussions...

 

[racooon]

The Bible never says they were perfect. The Bible says they were innocent. Only Jesus was perfect.

But Eve wasn't innocent, she knowingly disobeyed God.

Because the gift of free will means we are inherently not perfect in our lives. We have the choice to do good or evil.
We were created perfectly, but we do not always live perfectly.

Sure. But Eve was the second human ever. What stimulus could she have had to disobey God? why is it a good thing that she disobeyed him, and/or could disobey him?

 

[Chaplain]

Tell me why I should beleive the words of a deity who describes himself as "jealous" and even permits acts of insane violence and barbarism?

Read the Gospel of John for all of your answers. Go to the source for your answer.

 

[SonnyBoy]

Tell me why I should beleive the words of a deity who describes himself as "jealous"

The intent and reasoning behind his jealousy is what makes it pure. Being jealous of someone having a better car than you is far different than being jealous that your child is putting items that are detrimental to their "health" before their father.

 

[Snuggles]

Alright, one more question, since I appreciate a different perspective:

Do you believe that someone who is a non-believer/atheist will go to hell, even if they strive to do what is 'right' with their life? Does denial of God, despite following the ten commandants and trying to good a good person, mean that they are worthy of hell?

 

[jintek]

I always find this interesting.
The majority of people that seem to hate religion (particularly Christianity) are usually people that were force to go to church as children, and probably have one or two bad experiences there (or just hated going), and the true underlying hatred usually has nothing to do with the religion itself, even if they won't admit it.

No, I don't hate religion, and everybody I remember from my youth who preached religion were good people. I can't really say I had any bad experiences aside from going to church which was boring. But then again there were lots of places I went that I'd rather been home, or outside playing.

For me it comes down to practical relevance for private/public life, and I just don't see where religion fits in most cases. Aside from obvious good things like charity, and volunteer work (which religion DOES promote well), there just aren't many areas where religion (of any stripe) makes sense. I see way too many instances where religion lobbies and tries to forcibly insert itself into a public/private debate where it's neither needed or welcome.

 

[paparazzo]

Checking in. Reformed Episcopalian I believe. Not entirely sure I've been to several different churches over the years with my family and I just haven't bothered to have them clarify. But I believe in things like the five points of Calvinism and I've read a fair amount of theology but I'm not sure where I would be classified as far as denomination goes.

 

[Necromanti]

Because Jesus said that we are not perfect and need God's Spirit in us to live with God. No one can have God's Spirit apart from repenting from their sins and accepting Jesus' payment for all of the sins they have committed (past, present and future).
If we could get into heaven by our own works, then Jesus would have never come. God knew we couldn't get into heaven without Jesus.

From a biblical perspective, that certainly makes sense. I will leave it at that.

Let's say that you need $200 to pay your rent. You ask me for $200 and I know that I may not be able to cover my basic needs if I do this favor for you. Most people would say that it's dumb or irresponsible to help you out. I understand that. lol. But others may have faith in God that they can provide your need and that God will make due for them and all will be will.

Couldn't this also been seen as wanting to do good instead of having faith? That is, sacrificing (or compromising) your own well-being for the sake of someone else? Believing that you'll be taken care of anyways kind of takes away from the selflessness. Of course, you could also always hope that the person asking for the $200 will be make it through their time of need, and not worry at all. I suppose I can concede that, depending on your perspective, faith and doing good can be interlinked.

Alright, one more question, since I appreciate a different perspective:

Do you believe that someone who is a non-believer/atheist will go to hell, even if they strive to do what is 'right' with their life? Does denial of God, despite following the ten commandants and trying to good a good person, mean that they are worthy of hell?

According to a reply I received above, doing what is right without faith is not good enough to be with God. So yes, they will go to hell regardless.

 

[ULTROS!]

Hey there, fellow Roman Catholic Christian here, I just want to share something. I've been pondering about it for quite some time.

In my country (Philippines), our government is still trying to decide whether to push the Reproductive Health Bill (promotes widespread distribution of contraceptives, post-abortion care, etc., you can wiki it as "RH Bill") despite the country being 70-80% Catholic/Christian. Though the ones who are for and against the RH Bill are most probably 50/50.

Anyway, our village officials decided to put up an ordinance that supposedly supports the anti-RH Bill campaign by only allowing people to purchase contraceptives through a doctor's prescription only and schools asking permission from parents to teach their children sex education. I'd like to go in to further details but that's another story.

Anyway, our local Church highly supports this ordinance despite my village's opinion against it (majority don't approve of the ordinance and think it's absolutely idiotic). So what the church did was inform the Sunday mass attendees about the ordinance (I don't remember what they said though, but my friends said they were misinforming the people) and passing a petition around during homily. Even during the homily they brought out speakers. Surprisingly, a lot of people did not sign the petition and in fact, I've heard someone cried because of this, someone walked away from mass, and I've even got friends who are devout believers who against the RH Bill wanting to tear up the petition. Actually, a lot of people are questioning our local Church's actions.

So guys, what is your opinion on this? Does our local Church have the right to inform us about such ordinance or is it right to criticize our local Church.

 

[Shanadeus]

As Christianity spread and time passed (as early as only a century after Jesus' death), people started to disagree with how it should be practiced. So some churches split apart and created a new church, and then those split, and those split, until you have the many flavors of the religion that you have now.

Heh, that looks like an evolution diagram.

I believe there most definitely is, while on the subject, raising a child for instance, the child needs the male/female influences in their life, no matter how gay someone is, they cannot have that motherly/female influence the child needs to be brought up correctly.

That's kinda wrong.
Gaborn would probably school you if he was here.

 

[hellclerk]

I do see where you are coming from. As for me and my family, we believe God's Word to be inspired. God Word says what it means and means what it says. That is my choice and what I believe.

Well then let me ask you this, how many parables did Jesus teach? Now that's rhetorical, so don't bother counting. The point is, it was very rare for Jesus to just out and SAY something, he always went and told a folk tale about it first. You see, I too believe in Divine Inspiration of the Word, but I don't think God's so boring and unimaginative that He can't inspire a metaphorical fable or a morality tale.

You see, to simply limit God to what's written in an ancient book (that though inspired by Him, is still written by men), is not only blasphemous (how dare you be so arrogant as to limit God in such a manner), but downright boring. It's your choice to believe in such a dull God, but I consider it shortsighted and rigid. I would even consider that hardline stance to be the thing that scares the most people away from faith. Ever disliked a band or a sports team for the fans? Yeah, it's kinda like that...

 

[hydragonwarrior]

This thread's been destroyed. We're heading into another Christian GAF vs Athiest GAF thread *again.*

But really guys, someone posted "wut, it's not ok to challenge your own beliefs?" Of course it's OK, but not everyone has to question their beliefs all the time. Asking questions which are really disguised to challenge a person's faith is the same as a Jehovah's witness coming up to an athiest and trying to convert him. It gets old and tiresome defending yourself repeatedly, and eventually you don't want to deal with that anymore. You just want to discuss stuff without a heated argument. Hence the existence of this thread.

I mean, do some of you who hate hockey crawl into the hockey thread and go "Why do you like this sport? It's so boring." And then start debating with people (who CLEARLY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT DEFENDING THEIR ENJOYMENT OF HOCKEY) about how baseball is 100x better, even when the people there just want to talk about hockey and discuss how badly the Leafs are playing (sigh) and ... you know, NOT want to debate?

Anyway carry on. Thread's doomed anyway.

 

[SonnyBoy]

Alright, one more question, since I appreciate a different perspective:

Do you believe that someone who is a non-believer/atheist will go to hell, even if they strive to do what is 'right' with their life? Does denial of God, despite following the ten commandants and trying to good a good person, mean that they are worthy of hell?

I would never say that someone is worthy of hell. I wish the best and hope the best for anyone/everyone.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

southern baptist checking in.

to stir the pot further, ideas on megachurches?

Let's see:

-"Praise bands" doing "contemporary Christian music," otherwise known as "people who suck at rock-and-roll"

-Almost always in some sterile suburb

-Almost always terrible decor, more like a community theater than what flashes through my mind when I think of a church.

-Pastors rocking handheld microphones, or worse, headsets.

-Pastors in suits that make you say "Why does this car lot not have a giant inflatable gorilla out front?"

-I think they lose the plot a lot of the times with all the "community development" projects. Sometimes it seems like people care more about the "Country Club" amenities and who has a bigger this and a better that, than the actual church stuff.


I'm a real traditionalist. When I'm sitting in church, I want to feel like I'm someplace special. I want to feel connected to something different than the outside world. I like the old hymns, the stained glass, and the big pipe organ. So, obviously, it's not my style. But I'm sure there are some megachurches out there that are doing the work for people who want that.

 

[Chaplain]

Alright, one more question, since I appreciate a different perspective:

Do you believe that someone who is a non-believer/atheist will go to hell, even if they strive to do what is 'right' with their life? Does denial of God, despite following the ten commandants and trying to good a good person, mean that they are worthy of hell?

I believe what Jesus said. Mankind is infected with a disease that only God can cure. We must ask for the cure. It doesn't matter how good or evil a person has been as long as they ask for the cure. This levels the playing field dramatically for everyone needs to ask for the cure and only God can give it to the person who asks for it. God will not cure anyone who doesn't want to be cured. He will not violate their will.

 

[Stahsky]

Christian here. I haven't been to a church or have read the bible in many years, though. I've always just believed, tried to be a good person, and prayed as often as I could. I'm not sure if that is enough, but that is how I've done things.

You have my support, friends. I just hope the rest of GAF will show some respect.

 

[SonnyBoy]

This thread's been destroyed. We're heading into another Christian GAF vs Athiest GAF thread *again.*

I expected nothing less. But this is GAF and there's no consistency to how it's moderated.

 

[AceBandage]

Alright, one more question, since I appreciate a different perspective:

Do you believe that someone who is a non-believer/atheist will go to hell, even if they strive to do what is 'right' with their life? Does denial of God, despite following the ten commandants and trying to good a good person, mean that they are worthy of hell?

I'll admit, it's been a long time since I've read through the entire Bible, but I'm not sure if any part actually says people will go to Hell, rather they will not receive salvation.
There's also the belief that after the rapture, everyone will go to Heaven regardless.
Dunno.

Heh, that looks like an evolution diagram.

That's obviously a diagram of the multiverse theory.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I mean, do some of you who hate hockey crawl into the hockey thread and go "Why do you like this sport? It's so boring." And then start debating with people (who CLEARLY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT DEFENDING THEIR ENJOYMENT OF HOCKEY) about how baseball is 100x better, even when the people there just want to talk about hockey and discuss how badly the Leafs are playing (sigh) and ... you know, NOT want to debate?

Anyway carry on. Thread's doomed anyway.

.