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[SonnyBoy]

a soul isn't what you think it is.

Animals are described as “living creatures” (Genesis 1:20), and man a “living being” (Genesis 2:7)

The relationship that God desires with us is unique and does not involve animals. Now, this doesn't mean that animals are intelligent, dont have emotions or should not be treated properly.

 

[TacticalFox88]

If you read the book of 1 John, I will answer your loaded question. It should take you no more than 10 minutes to read it.



Read what Jesus said:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father (God) except through me."

And his way, is the correct way over all the others saying so....why?

 

[Shanadeus]

You lose your ability to accept Jesus in hell. Your decision is cemented in this life about where you will spend eternity.

So free will is binary and a choice between either accepting or not accepting Jesus?

I too have a question in general for all them Christians:

I am personally a bit of a proponent of rehabilitation justice and humane treatment of even the most vilest criminal - believing that all humans, whether they've committed a crime or not, should be allowed some basic necessities of life that should never be taken from them such as shelter, food, some form of entertainment.

This mean that there should not be any punitive justice unless it is effective at deterring the criminal from redoing his wrongs if he's ever released into society again and that those who are too dangerous to be released into society should be kept alive and offered the above basic necessities of life.

Focus is primarily on making innocents safer and secondly on helping these people from re-committing their mistakes in the future.

Now, I am very well aware of the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner" and it does mesh quite well with my ideal on how society should deal with criminals so my question to you all is if you see anything, from a Christian perspective, wrong with my way of thinking?

 

[racooon]

You'd have to be some kind of a deranged psychopath to want to keep billions of souls trapped in a hell for all eternity.

 

[Chaplain]

How can one be wrong in finding who they really are? Should it not be sinful to live our lives as a lie, and denying who you are because some ancient text tells you it's the wrong way to live?

The Apostle John is talking about people who have been saved but continue to live like a unsaved person. Are you actually implying that we should get to live as evil as we want and God should just allow us in to heaven? This goes against everything Jesus and His Apostles taught. Jesus said to deny ourselves and live for others.

Why wouldn't God want you to pursue happiness, as long as it doesn't harm others?

If we live how God wants us to live we will be happy. If we do not, then we have really missed the entire message of the bible.

 

[KtSlime]

Gandhi accepted Christ. He did not accept Christianity (or really any religion).

" I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

God has no religion.
"

Yes, but did he accept Christ as GOD?

I accept that Christ, at times had good advice to offer, and that he was mostly well intentioned and believed people should love each other. - Not that he did magic tricks and was born from a virgin.

 

[hellclerk]

I don't disagree with what you've said, I guess I'm just not that good at expressing myself. You agree with me that we aren't THAT consistent and because of that IMO our ability to love is not perfect. But yes I agree, we are here to show the love of God which is perfect.

So if I have in my explanation come of differently, I apologize to anyone offended.

No, it's fine, seeing things from different perspectives is important, but I still don't quite agree with you. You see, you put our lack of consistency on an inherent flaw, that our ABILITY is imperfect, but I disagree with that. It's not our ability, our ability is fine. As we are now, we're totally ABLE to love the perfect love. The real question is "will we?". We have all the potential in the universe, we just don't use it, and that's a crying shame, but I can't say I'm an exception. But it's not an inherent flaw of our beings, but rather a flaw of our character, which is a good thing and a bad thing. We'll get there one day.

If you read the book of 1 John, I will answer your loaded question. It should take you no more than 10 minutes to read it.

That's not what I asked. I asked "Are you saved?" A simple yes, no, maybe, etc. would suffice.

 

[AceBandage]

So free will is binary and a choice between either accepting or not accepting Jesus?

I too have a question in general for all them Christians:

I am personally a bit of a proponent of rehabilitation justice and humane treatment of even the most vilest criminal - believing that all humans, whether they've committed a crime or not, should be allowed some basic necessities of life that should never be taken from them such as shelter, food, some form of entertainment.

This mean that there should not be any punitive justice unless it is effective at deterring the criminal from redoing his wrongs if he's ever released into society again and that those who are too dangerous to be released into society should be kept alive and offered the above basic necessities of life.

Focus is primarily on making innocents safer and secondly on helping these people from re-committing their mistakes in the future.

Now, I am very well aware of the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner" and it does mesh quite well with my ideal on how society should deal with criminals so my question to you all is if you see anything, from a Christian perspective, wrong with my way of thinking?

If a person can truly be rehabilitated, then awesome. As Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." implying that no one is able to dole out that kind punishment except for God.

Yes, but did he accept Christ as GOD?

I accept that Christ, at times had good advice to offer, and that he was mostly well intentioned and believed people should love each other. - Not that he did magic tricks and was born from a virgin.

I'll have to ask him next time I see him.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Is Ghandi going to hell?


If yes, your religion is bogus.

Oh, so something is automatically bogus just because it doesn't have the happy ending you want?

That's a good one, weak troll.

 

[racooon]

I wonder if there is any Clergy-GAF?

 

[SonnyBoy]

You'd have to be some kind of a deranged psychopath to want to keep billions of souls trapped in a hell for all eternity.

LOL, well. OK.

 

[nateeasy]

God Bless

 

[Barbacoatl]

Yeah, the Gospel according to John is a theology. Taking it literally off the bat is foolish. Like I said before, Satan is simply a personification of an emptiness of God's love, i.e., evil. Would you disagree that the darkness in men's hearts ruled the "world" as in the world of men at the time of this writing, such as with the Roman Empire and the corruption of it? That's my point. John's Gospel is written to an audience, and rather than say "our governors are douchebags, but they won't be douchebags much longer!" the Gospel provided it through the lens of religious tradition.

John was probably making a reference to something else than just "absence of God". Some say Azazel, as in taken from Enoch's book or the extra-canonical text the Apocalypse of Abraham. The Midrash of Shemhazai and Azazel also bring interesting tidbits that are shared in Genesis 6:2-4.

 

[Chaplain]

No, it's fine, seeing things from different perspectives is important, but I still don't quite agree with you. You see, you put our lack of consistency on an inherent flaw, that our ABILITY is imperfect, but I disagree with that. It's not our ability, our ability is fine. As we are now, we're totally ABLE to love the perfect love. The real question is "will we?". We have all the potential in the universe, we just don't use it, and that's a crying shame, but I can't say I'm an exception. But it's not an inherent flaw of our beings, but rather a flaw of our character, which is a good thing and a bad thing. We'll get there one day.


That's not what I asked. I asked "Are you saved?" A simple yes, no, maybe, etc. would suffice.

The answer is found in the Book of 1st John. Read what John says about being saved.

 

[Necromanti]

That's not what I asked. I asked "Are you saved?" A simple yes, no, maybe, etc. would suffice.

*paging Summary Man*

So, has there been any agreed consensus on whether we HAVE souls, or ARE souls? If the former, is it possible for someone to be without one, or lose one?

 

[SonnyBoy]

No, it's fine, seeing things from different perspectives is important, but I still don't quite agree with you. You see, you put our lack of consistency on an inherent flaw, that our ABILITY is imperfect, but I disagree with that. It's not our ability, our ability is fine. As we are now, we're totally ABLE to love the perfect love. The real question is "will we?". We have all the potential in the universe, we just don't use it, and that's a crying shame, but I can't say I'm an exception. But it's not an inherent flaw of our beings, but rather a flaw of our character, which is a good thing and a bad thing. We'll get there one day.

Wow, again. You're right. I see exactly what you're getting at. I could be consistent for the rest of my life but for my own selfish reasons, I won't be. Thanks for checking me on that, I'll be sure to remember this.

 

[Snuggles]

The Apostle John is talking about people who have been saved but continue to live like a unsaved person. Are you actually implying that we should get to live as evil as we want and God should just allow us in to heaven? This goes against everything Jesus and His Apostles taught. Jesus said to deny ourselves and live for others.

No, I'm not talking about living "evil" lives. I'm not talking about murders or rapists (or anyone who willingly causes suffering) being given a pass because that's what they 'really' are, I'm talking about people who find who they really are, and cause no harm to others but are considered hell-bound because the ancient text of the bible suggests that all homosexuals are evil. Can you really stand behind this?

Does living a lie make you worthy of salvation?

 

[KtSlime]

Oh, so something is automatically bogus just because it doesn't have the happy ending you want?

That's a good one, weak troll.

Yeah, if God would condemn a man like that and save a murderer who prays in his final hour because he is afraid of what might happen after his execution, then yes - he is not a God I can worship.

 

[hellclerk]

The answer is found in the Book of 1st John. Read what John says about being saved.

Yes, it says HOW we are saved, but that's not what I asked, I asked are YOU saved?

 

[hydragonwarrior]

...because Hockey is simply not comparable to religion, which is something that impacts all of our lives whether or not we try to ignore it. Of course there is no excuse for throwing around personal insults or trolling for attention, but I think this is a great venue for discussion and debate. It's really just a matter of people being mature enough to have a conversation without being insulting.

Right. But the intent of the thread was to have a topic about a specific religion (Christianity) without having to go into a debate similar to Hockey vs Basketball. A topic where you just discuss Christianity and what you like about it and current events related to it without even needing that sort of debate.

And it's been said lots of times, but there's plenty of religious debate type threads floating around, one of which was posted in the OP (and sadly this is also becoming another one of those threads). Or the topic of "religion and it's effects on society" can be it's own new topic to debate until the end of time.

At times it does surprise me though how quickly a religon thread gets trolled. It's like people are afraid the topic will pop out of their screen and start throwing pamphlets at them.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

You'd have to be some kind of a deranged psychopath to want to keep billions of souls trapped in a hell for all eternity.

LOL

Wow, you really are checking all the boxes on the "My First Atheist Talking Points Guide" aren't you?

 

[Shanadeus]

If a person can truly be rehabilitated, then awesome. As Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." implying that no one is able to dole out that kind punishment except for God.

That was what I thought.

I'll bring this up in any future threads were I end up explaining my position on why people shouldn't be executed or tortured for crimes but rather be isolated from society until they're no longer considered a danger for their common man.

 

[racooon]

I don't think 'trolling' means what you think it means.

I'm aware my posts don't conform to the wishes of the OP, but damned if I'm going to not contribute to a topic I feel strongly about.

Wow, you really are checking all the boxes on the "My First Atheist Talking Points Guide" aren't you?

Pardon?

 

[Trent Strong]

Do you consider Mormons to be Christians?

 

[funkmasterb]

Yeah, if God would condemn a man like that and save a murderer who prays in his final hour because he is afraid of what might happen after his execution, then yes - he is not a God I can worship.

Exactly.

 

[AceBandage]

That was what I thought.

I'll bring this up in any future threads were I end up explaining my position on why people shouldn't be executed or tortured for crimes but rather be isolated from society until they're no longer considered a danger for their common man.

It would be nice if it worked.
The problem is, that takes an insane amount of funding. Therapy and rehabilitation are not cheap.
As is, it's a pipe dream, not because of any beliefs, but because it's just not profitable.

 

[alphaNoid]

Alright, one more question for the night:

Do you believe that a homosexual is condemned to hell, even if he is a Christian?

*and this is based on the premise that he does not beg for forgiveness to God about being a homosexual in his final moments, he dies as he is*

I'm not practicing religion any longer but my understanding of the standard Christian view is that ... all sins are equal in God's eyes. So quite honestly by definition, the Bible indicates that someone who kills someone, someone who cheats on his wife, someone who steals $1, or someone who is homosexual are all equally sinners. Despite what many think, homosexuality isn't a sin on some other kind of level.

Sins are equal in justice, its just that most religious folk try to live moral lives. Homosexuality is a daily lifestyle that is basically a daily sin. I think thats the surface of the issue, but that moral folk see the outgoing sexual lifestyle as something boastful which makes it bother people even more.

By definition homosexuality isn't any worse that taking $1 from a rich man. But, humans will be humans and put their own moral agenda first because something simply 'bothers' them. One can be homosexual and Christian the same as one can be an active drug addict or thief, or cheating on their wife and be a Christian. I know that sounds bad, but Christianity (along with most all major world religions) treat homosexuality as a sin in some regard.

They're all equal sins in God's eyes. People might reference stories in the Bible like cities being destroyed by God due to homosexuality, they'll use these references to say that God punishes that kind of sin ... but in reality, its stated many many times that all sins are equal. Old testament stories are just that, stories. Most modern Christians follow the new testament which is the story and life of Jesus, who sacrificed his life for the sins of all men, and each could be saved by accepting him as God and savior. In retrospect, old testament stories depicted people doing animal sacrifices etc.. Jesus was the paradigm shift for the way to eternity with God.

A true good, and kind hearted Christian will be accepting of anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, or past... without exception. Because honestly, thats what Jesus would do. Unfortunately just like anything else, you usually only hear about the bad seeds.. be it through the news or message boards like these. Additionally there are a lot of religious folk who blindly target and hate homosexuals .. this is unfortunate and sad. The average day to day Christian is the guy next to you at Starbucks, your teacher, your grandmother or even your science teacher (happened to me lol). Most of these people are probably a-ok with homosexuality so long as its done in the privacy of their own home. You will only see these people flare up with something challenges their status quo, like say marriage etc.. For the most part, the average Christian doesn't have time to hate on people because they're too busy living their life like everyone else. People who do have time, are very sad individuals.

In the end, homosexuality does not condemn you to hell. All souls can be saved. Please keep in mind I haven't been to church in something like 10 years. I am not going to defend anything I said because its all from memory and I could be 100% incorrect for all I know. Please take it with a grain of salt, perhaps someone can correct me if I was wrong.

Do you consider Mormons to be Christians?

Again, according to the Bible nobody should be adding to the word of God (Bible). Those who do are considered cultists. Mormons use the Bible and additionally the Book of Mormon. So by definition, they are the largest cult on the planet.

I don't believe this, but this is what the Bible says I believe and what most practicing Christians do as well.

(I think)

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Animals are described as “living creatures” (Genesis 1:20), and man a “living being” (Genesis 2:7)

The relationship that God desires with us is unique and does not involve animals. Now, this doesn't mean that animals are intelligent, dont have emotions or should not be treated properly.

check your concordance, the hebrew word nephesh transliterates to soul not living being. the KJV had it correct.

...i lost track why i quoted you to begin with.

 

[SonnyBoy]

I don't think 'trolling' means what you think it means.

I'm aware my posts don't conform to the wishes of the OP, but damned if I'm going to not contribute to a topic I feel strongly about.

Pardon?

Participation is great but but you could do so in a way that isn't offensive and would go a long way to keeping the thread civil.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Yeah, if God would condemn a man like that and save a murderer who prays in his final hour because he is afraid of what might happen after his execution, then yes - he is not a God I can worship.

Well, you don't know what was in Ghandi's heart at the moment of his death, so you have no idea, and neither do I. And simply praying to save your murderous ass at death's door is probably not going to do the trick either. God's a little more savvy than that.

Basically, you are consumed with judgements that aren't your call.

 

[KtSlime]

Do you consider Mormons to be Christians?

I think everyone that knows what the word Christian means would kind of have to. They believe in Christ and his immaculate birth - more so than other Christians, they think God came down and took Mary as his wife.

Mormons: More Christian than anyone else.

 

[Stahsky]

I don't think 'trolling' means what you think it means.

I'm aware my posts don't conform to the wishes of the OP, but damned if I'm going to not contribute to a topic I feel strongly about.

Pardon?

I believe it is more so your offensive attitude that is becoming a problem. All you've done is try to derail the thread. Nothing else.

 

[ULTROS!]

Aw, people ignored my previous post.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Do you consider Mormons to be Christians?

if you threw jesus in your religion, by definition muslims would be considered christians too.

 

[hellclerk]

It would be nice if it worked.
The problem is, that takes an insane amount of funding. Therapy and rehabilitation are not cheap.
As is, it's a pipe dream, not because of any beliefs, but because it's just not profitable.

Actually, with all the legal proceedings to kill someone via death penalty in this country, it's actually CHEAPER to keep someone in prison for the rest of their lives.

Also, that's not EXACTLY true. What the passage prohibits is the killing of sinners, public or otherwise, in the name of that sin. The law of man is not the Law of God, so justice of the mortal coil must be based on laws of the mortal coil, not justifying death in God's name. Secular reasonings for the death penalty remain "kosher", though I'm totally against capital punishment.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Pardon?

Well, you're obviously at the part where you attack the notion of a "worship-worthy God" part now...I figured you'd be checking off the boxes, so you don't repeat yourself while you evangelize to us.

I'm aware my posts don't conform to the wishes of the OP, but damned if I'm going to not contribute to a topic I feel strongly about.

You know what? I sympathize, I disagreed with similar ground rules being set in the Vegetarian thread. I said so.

Then you know what I did?

I left the thread.

 

[Shanadeus]

It would be nice if it worked.
The problem is, that takes an insane amount of funding. Therapy and rehabilitation are not cheap.
As is, it's a pipe dream, not because of any beliefs, but because it's just not profitable.

Even without therapy and rehabilitation you could afford a humane imprisonment by allowing for the prisoners to work and take a (larger than what is usually taken from your pay check in taxes) cut out of their pay check.

Just take the money it cost to keep them detained there which lowers if not outright removes the risk of the creation of labour slave camps where prisons have been transformed from an institution meant to safeguard the citizens to yet another money making scheme.

Prisons should never be run for profit, they should be non-profit.

 

[KtSlime]

Well, you don't know what was in Ghandi's heart at the moment of his death, so you have no idea, and neither do I. And simply praying to save your murderous ass at death's door is probably not going to do the trick either. God's a little more savvy than that.

Basically, you are consumed with judgements that aren't your call.

True, I don't know what was in Ghandi's heart at death, but you also don't know what was in the heart of the Apostles while writing their testaments - it could be an elaborate scheme, and you have no way of ever knowing.

That said, just because you worship some deity that you most likely learned about due to where you were born, and who your parents were taught to worship, from some book that may or may not be the word of God does not mean I am am incapable of making my own judgements.

 

[racooon]

I believe it is more so your offensive attitude that is becoming a problem. All you've done is try to derail the thread. Nothing else.

I don't think I've offended anyone. Sorry, didn't know there are threads on GAF I'm not allowed to post in. My mistake.

 

[kevm3]

Do we constantly have to have these threads devolve into homosexuality arguments or existence arguments? Is it possible to have one of these where we don't devolve into the same point of contention in which the two sides are quite entrenched in their viewpoints and have little reason to change?

 

[threenote]

if you threw jesus in your religion, by definition muslims would be considered christians too.

Muslims believe Jesus was just a prophet, so no, you're wrong.

 

[racooon]

Well, you're obviously at the part where you attack the notion of a "worship-worthy God" part now...I figured you'd be checking off the boxes, so you don't repeat yourself while you evangelize to us.

I suppose this kind of posting is easier than actually addressing the issue.
You think God would to the decent thing and just wipe the population of Hell out, to free them from their misery. As I'd shoot a cat that had been run over by a car in the head.
Or something similar.

Do we constantly have to have these threads devolve into homosexuality arguments or existence arguments? Is it possible to have one of these where we don't devolve into the same point of contention in which the two sides are quite entrenched in their viewpoints and have little reason to change?

Heat, kitchens, etc.

 

[AceBandage]

True, I don't know what was in Ghandi's heart at death, but you also don't know what was in the heart of the Apostles while writing their testaments - it could be an elaborate scheme, and you have no way of ever knowing.

That said, just because you worship some deity that you most likely learned about due to where you were born, and who your parents were taught to worship, from some book that may or may not be the word of God does not mean I am am incapable of making my own judgements.

 

[Stahsky]

I don't think I've offended anyone. Sorry, didn't know there are threads on GAF I'm not allowed to post in. My mistake.

Nobody said that. You're just being an ass.

 

[racooon]

Nobody said that. You're just being an ass.

Well, now, buddy, I find that comment to be highly offensive.

 

[Kusagari]

If we live how God wants us to live we will be happy. If we do not, then we have really missed the entire message of the bible.

What's the point of free will at all then? If the only way to 'live happy' is to live how God wants you to then that's not free will in it's truest sense. You either live how God tells you to or you go to Hell. Some 'free will'.

 

[Nassimoluc]

Good thread! Keep up the great work OP!

 

[Snuggles]

In the end, homosexuality does not condemn you to hell. All souls can be saved. Please keep in mind I haven't been to church in something like 10 years. I am not going to defend anything I said because its all from memory and I could be 100% incorrect for all I know. Please take it with a grain of salt, perhaps someone can correct me if I was wrong.

Thanks for that well-reasoned response, I really do I appreciate that. I guess it ultimately brings me back to my original point, though, that the antiquated list of sins in the bible is wrong. Stealing is wrong, yes. Murder, envy, hate, all wrong, of course...but how does homosexuality belong on that list? How is that wrong? Is it an act with intentions of destruction, or harm, or jealously? It's simply a matter of people realizing who they really are. How would it be 'right' to just suppress those feelings, the truth, and pretend you are something else?

If God is omnipotent, he knows who you really are. He knows what you desire to be, who you are meant to be. So with that in mind, how could he condemn you for being who you are, as if you have any choice when it comes to what body you're dropped in to. Would he really create a defective human being, someone who's doomed to living a lie just for his approval? Or to be an honest person, and to strive for happiness and self-actualization, only to be deemed a sinner? It's flawed and terrible logic, created by people who did not deserve to have the influence that they sadly do today.

 

[Trent Strong]

Again, according to the Bible nobody should be adding to the word of God (Bible). Those who do are considered cultists. Mormons use the Bible and additionally the Book of Mormon. So by definition, they are the largest cult on the planet.

I don't believe this, but this is what the Bible says I believe and what most practicing Christians do as well.

(I think)

But the Bible is a collection of writings by various authors. People were adding to it all the time over the course of many years. That argument doesn't seem to really work.

 

[KtSlime]

I know! I have excellent taste!