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[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Also, Christopher Columbus as monstruous as he was, he was also a product of imperialism FIVE HUNDRED years ago.

Let's say "Okay, fine, we'll ignore the genocide because hey, everyone was doing it!"

What exactly did he do worth recognition?

He didn't discover the Earth was round, that had been widely known for centuries.

He didn't discover America, partly because he never even landed there.

He wasn't the first to discover the Americas, that was the native Americans that had lived there for millennia.

He wasn't the first European to discover the Americas, that was Leif Erikson centuries earlier.

The only thing he is notable for is genocide.

 

[Chuckie]

 

[Volimar]

Chris thinking he landed in the east Indies is a myth. In his own writings he shows that he knew that it was a new land.


You guys should check out "Lies My Teacher Told Me".


There were folks in Columbus, Ohio last week protesting the Columbus statue but I don't know if anything will come of it.

 

[PingPongvonLaserstein]

Rename it.

I'd be in favor of changing it to Columbo Day, an annual national celebration of Peter Falk.

 

[Horse Detective]

Why does it seem like every defender of preserving historical monuments is fearful of what will be removed next?

It's almost as though the idea of change is more frightening than the specific instances of it. Thats why they always go for the low blow and blame it on being overly sensitive.

I would say your sensitivity towards progressive changes is overly sensitive and that you should just toughen up.

 

[Oriel]

Oh well.

 

[andythinkpad]

I think Columbus should be remember. But this country really need a public holiday to remember/celebrate the indigenous people of NA.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

I'm against the vandalism of Columbus monuments due to discrimination against Italians and Catholics in America's past.

 

[Ishan]

Oh... no... how... terrible...

yeah no shit is it is bad. fuck white supremecists but this sort of thing just plays into their hands. Dont do shit if you want to be the party in right. When one side throws a punch then another no one remembers who threw the first punch. What ppl remember is when only one side threw a punch.

Fucking learn. Dont break the law dont vandalize. Protest correctly for fucks sake.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Why do you feel this way?

As I mentioned above, vandalism should not be the answer unless all other avenues have been tried.
Nothing productive comes out of it outside of some short-lived catharsis.

Yes, he was a genocidal asshole but if we really are going to go around destroying history because the views of those figures don't mesh with our own modern day morals we are going to have a lot of work to do.
As someone else mentioned, he was a product of imperialism from hundreds of years ago.

Also, setting aside the morality I feel like it is disrespectful to the artist who created the monument 200+ years ago. I doubt he toiled away at the monument knowing the truth of Colombus.

There is nothing to be gained from this sort of short-sighted vandalism in my view.
Put your energy towards something productive. Figure out a way to teach the truth of his horrible legacy. Have the monument moved to a museum where that history could be taught, etc.

When comparing the two situations, it is very easy to see that the intent of the Jim Crow-era monuments was mean to be a form of intimidation, which is why I honestly wouldn't even bat an eye if they were vandalized (although I think they should be taken down by legal means). In this case though, I don't think it is as cut and dry and I feel like there could be some historic and artistic merit to the monument if it were framed correctly.

Artisans put a lot of work into confederate statues too and we all know what they were all about. How do you feel about those being up?

If we are talking about actual monuments and statues from the period, I would be against them being outright destroyed.
Even if it is an ugly part of our past, it is still our history.

The Jim Crow-era statues are where the problem is because they were very obviously put up with malicious intent to intimidate.
I don't think that is the case with this monument from the 1700s. It was created from a place of ignorance.
Use the artisans work to educate more people and rid them of those ignorant perceptions.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Adam ruins everything

 

[Volimar]

yeah no shit is it is bad. fuck white supremecists but this sort of thing just plays into their hands. Dont do shit if you want to be the party in right. When one side throws a punch then another no one remembers who threw the first punch. What ppl remember is when only one side threw a punch.

Fucking learn. Dont break the law dont vandalize. Protest correctly for fucks sake.

Is...is this sarcasm or are you literally telling people to protest correctly?

 

[andythinkpad]

Let's say "Okay, fine, we'll ignore the genocide because hey, everyone was doing it!"

What exactly did he do worth recognition?

He didn't discover the Earth was round, that had been widely known for centuries.

He didn't discover America, partly because he never even landed there.

He wasn't the first to discover the Americas, that was the native Americans that had lived there for millennia.

He wasn't the first European to discover the Americas, that was Leif Erikson centuries earlier.

The only thing he is notable for is genocide.

He was a great explorer who took incredible risks to discover new routes and accerlated globalization. He also greatly expanded the influence of the Western Civilization.

If you don't want to root for the Western Civilization that's fine by me. But how are these not valid reasons?

 

[Ishan]

Why do you feel this way?

because im against law breaking on either side. And this just fuels the other side blaming the left. ... this should be obvious.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Let's say "Okay, fine, we'll ignore the genocide because hey, everyone was doing it!"

What exactly did he do worth recognition?

He didn't discover the Earth was round, that had been widely known for centuries.

He didn't discover America, partly because he never even landed there.

He wasn't the first to discover the Americas, that was the native Americans that had lived there for millennia.

He wasn't the first European to discover the Americas, that was Leif Erikson centuries earlier.

The only thing he is notable for is genocide.

Erikson's discovery led nowhere and was essentially forgotten in the sands of time. Columbus's discovery led to the colonization of the Americas. Which was pretty huge in the history of civilization.

Yeah, the dude's a monster, but this revisionist "he didn't even do anything!" is just nonsense.

 

[Ishan]

Is...is this sarcasm or are you literally telling people to protest correctly?

im not sarcastic im indian and fuck no im not being sarcastic im telling ppl not to vandalize. And if they do then stand right next to the monument get arrested serve your time like how power protest works Say ill do. ill do the crime and the time because i think this is messed up if you arent willing to do that then dont fucking break the law then run away youre being a vandal masquerading as an activist.

EDIt a person who breaks the law admits he broke it then pays the time is a much more powerful symbol than someone who breaks the law then runs away. fact of life. you didnt see rosa parks mandela gandhi etc run away from when they broke the existing law.

 

[orava]

Attacking and vandalizing a statue does not sound like very intelligent move.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Doesn't matter what their importance to History is, monuments about historical figures that are not 100% clean of any association with past injustice need to be physically destroyed. Because my feelings cannot handle it.

Not trying to defend Columbus here, but under that criteria I am not sure what statue would be left standing anywhere on Earth,

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Chris thinking he landed in the east Indies is a myth. In his own writings he shows that he knew that it was a new land.

This is debatable. His writings also show he did in fact believe that he had made it to Asia, and also claimed that South America was actually a portion of Asia previously unknown to Europe.

 

[Acidote]

Let's say "Okay, fine, we'll ignore the genocide because hey, everyone was doing it!"

I'm not sayin that and you know I'm not saying that. Do not turn this into a black or white situation.

What exactly did he do worth recognition?

He didn't discover the Earth was round, that had been widely known for centuries.

He didn't discover America, partly because he never even landed there.

He wasn't the first to discover the Americas, that was the native Americans that had lived there for millennia.

He wasn't the first European to discover the Americas, that was Leif Erikson centuries earlier.

The only thing he is notable for is genocide.

I agree with everything you said but the last line (and the motherfucker was quite notably genocidal), and I'm not saying we should celebrate the man or give him recognition for his "heroic deeds". We all know by now he was a piece of shit. I'm saying there's historic value there. And the figure, genocidal as he was, is an important historical figure if only for being the name behind the start of the western colonialism in the Americas.

Maybe some of those old monuments should be taken down from the streets, but they have a value and should be displayed somewhere with the REAL history we know about it right now.

Rename the day for something that celebrates indigenous peoples, Italian-American people too, show the ugly truth behind that name, but do not destroy everything about it.

 

[Volimar]

Not trying to defend Columbus here, but under that criteria I am not sure what statue would be left standing anywhere on Earth,

Is the Rocky Balboa statue still up?

 

[His Majesty]

Why does it seem like every defender of preserving historical monuments is fearful of what will be removed next?

It's almost as though the idea of change is more frightening than the specific instances of it. Thats why they always go for the low blow and blame it on being overly sensitive.

I would say your sensitivity towards progressive changes is overly sensitive and that you should just toughen up.

Society is always changing, I very much agree. And luckily confederate statues do not fit into that model anymore so it is only logical they are removed from public view. But destroying them with a sledgehammer is two steps too far. Those statues are still representative of a time when slavery was viewed as something ordinary. Do we really wish to destroy historical and cultural evidence of practices we do not approve of nowadays? Should Italy tear down all monuments dedicated to Caesar?

Preservation and glorification are not the same thing. Remove the Columbus statue but keep it intact. Or display it within the modern context in a museum.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/20/...ot-destroy-confederate-monuments.html?mcubz=1

 

[andythinkpad]

Not trying to defend Columbus here, but under that criteria I am not sure what statue would be left standing anywhere on Earth,

Thats why the Little Red Guards tried to destroy all old statues and temples during Cultural Revolution.

 

[Laughing Banana]

He was a great explorer who took incredible risks to discover new routes and accerlated globalization. He also greatly expanded the influence of the Western Civilization.

If you don't want to root for the Western Civilization that's fine by me. But how are these not valid reasons?

Is it so hard to understand that people may not want to celebrate the achievement of a man who was able to did what he did because he did monstrous things to untold amount of human beings?

 

[Acidote]

Not trying to defend Columbus here, but under that criteria I am not sure what statue would be left standing anywhere on Earth,

There's some point where you have to draw a line. Greece has the Thermopylae Monument with a Leonidas statue, Mongolia has the Genghis Khan Equestrial Statue, and I'm sure there are many others around the world with excellent people like those two.

 

[DrFurbs]

I'm genuinely at a loss with this generation.

Literally everything is offensive to someone and I'm not just talking about the statue. But come on.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm genuinely at a loss with this generation.

Literally everything is offensive to someone.

Christopher Columbus literally murdered and enslaved natives. He was a complete monster.

Read more before you declare some crisis of "kids these days," Christ lmao.

"In the early years of Columbus' conquests there were butcher shops throughout the Caribbean where Indian bodies were sold as dog food. There was also a practice known as the montería infernal, the infernal chase, or manhunt, in which Indians were hunted by war-dogs.

These dogs—who also wore armor and had been fed human flesh, were a fierce match for the Indians. Live babies were also fed to these war dogs as sport, sometimes in front of horrified parents."

 

[Basketball]

This is going to snowball isn't it

and it's not going to be good for anyone

You know what this guy (vandalizer) is a dumbass

if you want to remove something go through the proper channels
hope he gets caught

 

[lastplayed]

Good, Columbus was a cunt. Love the movie though, even if Gerard Depardieu is an idiot.

So many conflicting feelings.

 

[plufim]

I'm genuinely at a loss with this generation.

Literally everything is offensive to someone and I'm not just talking about the statue. But come on.

...how do you know the age of the person who did this?

 

[Einchy]

I'm genuinely at a loss with this generation.

Literally everything is offensive to someone and I'm not just talking about the statue. But come on.

Are you really pulling this shit over a guy who committed literal genocide?

This ain't new, either.

 

[antonz]

This is going to snowball isn't it

and it's not going to be good for anyone

We have seen it throughout History. As someone mentioned The Red Guard in China is a good example and considering the political identity of most of these people it is likely The Red Guard is right up their alley.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

I can't remember any of these dates happening with statues and stuff in the UK.

With our history I doubt there would be many left.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

LOL. Who removed the statue? You're precious statue is still there but it's been tagged by some punks. Guess what? As more people learn what a monster he was, the more this will happen. (Proof is in the article. If you actually read it)

The answer must be to rewrite our textbooks so people stop wrecking statues right?

If they catch them whatever. But I ain't crying over some fucking statue that 99% of y'all never gave a fuck about before this happened.

 

[lastplayed]

I can't remember any of these dates happening with statues and stuff in the UK.

With our history I doubt there would be many left.

I'd hope Coventry's Lady Godiva would get a pass.

 

[IaN_GAF]

I would think you could teach about the person the statue is of without violently destroying it, but who am I.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I would think you could teach about the person the statue is of without violently destroying it, but who am I.

Or we could teach about him AND stop honoring his memory

That said, it's been common knowledge that he's an absolute monster for decades and people still revere him. Clearly, education by itself is inadequate to force the status quo to change.

 

[IaN_GAF]

Or we could teach about him AND stop honoring his memory

Absolutely. Agreed 100%. Don't need to destroy the statue to do so, though.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Absolutely. Agreed 100%. Don't need to destroy the statue to do so, though.

Not destroying it hasn't caused the status quo to change, so perhaps we need to give that a try.

 

[Basketball]

Or we could teach about him AND stop honoring his memory

Yeah by going through the proper channels and having city officials and the community at large decide you know like whats happening in other places right now

and not by becoming the judge and jury yourself and getting a slegehammer.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

They shouldn't record themselves doing this.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

We have seen it throughout History. As someone mentioned The Red Guard in China is a good example and considering the political identity of most of these people it is likely The Red Guard is right up their alley.

Jesus Christ. Comparing this to the fucking Red Guard and Mao is making me both laugh and cry at the same time.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Or we could teach about him AND stop honoring his memory

That said, it's been common knowledge that he's an absolute monster for decades and people still revere him. Clearly, education by itself is inadequate to force the status quo to change.

Really? I have never met anyone in my life who had strong positive feelings for Columbus.
He's been the butt of jokes in popular culture for years and years.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yeah by going through the proper channels and having city officials and the community at large decide you know like whats happening in other places right now

and not by becoming the judge and jury yourself and getting a slegehammer.

I don't think judges and juries factor into taking down a statue.

Also what do you mean, happening in other places? A big part of why removal of statues is gaining traction is the vandalism.

Really? I have never met anyone in my life who had strong positive feelings for Columbus.
He's been the butt of jokes in popular culture for years and years.

I can't link to anything in particular, but I've seen examples of people still being taught of Columbus being the discoverer of America. That said, perhaps it's just because you don't know a lot of people who would be ignorant of that fact?

 

[AGITΩ]

I'm pretty conflicted on Columbus. Did he lead to the rape and genocide of multiple native tribes? Yes. But if he hadn't, as a Puerto Rican, i likely wouldn't exist, neither would a lot of latino societies.
But given the era, if it wasn't him, it wouldve been another and the same thing wouldve carried out. In school, i was taught that Columbus didnt discover America, he encountered it.
I personally don't have an issue with the statues of him. Everyone being butthurt over statues is getting ridiculous.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Being a ideologically driven self-righteous revolutionist won't get these people very far. They'll be prosecuted.

 

[Horse Detective]

I'm genuinely at a loss with this generation.

Literally everything is offensive to someone and I'm not just talking about the statue. But come on.

Are you genuinely at a loss?

Because to me "at a loss" means your brain has literally searched to the ends of the Earth for an explanation that is never coming. Is it more likely that you just disagree with their reasoning, but are too busy whining to argue against it?

 

[darklin0]

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[devilhawk]

We have seen it throughout History. As someone mentioned The Red Guard in China is a good example and considering the political identity of most of these people it is likely The Red Guard is right up their alley.

It becomes essentially an industry in itself where people people make careers out of this. Just like any other career, people likely won't simply "hang up their sledgehammers" when all the Columbus memorials are destroyed; they'll find something else to use them on.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm pretty conflicted on Columbus. Did he lead to the rape and genocide of multiple native tribes? Yes. But if he hadn't, as a Puerto Rican, i likely wouldn't exist, neither would a lot of latino societies.
But given the era, if it wasn't him, it wouldve been another and the same thing wouldve carried out. In school, i was taught that Columbus didnt discover America, he encountered it.
I personally don't have an issue with the statues of him. Everyone being butthurt over statues is getting ridiculous.

I mean, I wouldn't exist if reparations were properly given, but that doesn't mean I'm of two minds about it - it's more valuable that they receive reparations after the Civil War than I exist.

It becomes essentially an industry in itself where people people make careers out of this. Just like any other career, people likely won't simply "hang up their sledgehammers" when all the Columbus memorials are destroyed; they'll find something else to use them on.

For instance?