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[stupei]

If we judge everyone and everything through the prism of contemporary morality, then nearly all monuments need to be destroyed and nearly all historical figures need to be condemned for one thing or another.

I'd rather we preserve our history.

See, but monuments like this distort our view of human history to the point that people might think it reasonable to assume that no one in the past could possibly comprehend that torturing people, cutting off limbs, and selling little girls as sex slaves might be immoral. Columbus was condemned for his actions in his own time. This idea that we only recently became capable of understanding the moral implications of our actions is a deliberate distortion that excuses the atrocities of the past instead of placing them in their actual historic context. It does not actually teach us history; it purifies and excuses it.

Is there actualy any proof that Columbus was directly involved in any of these acts? Or is this just some internet blogger / conspiracy thing?

“A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand.” - Christopher Columbus in a letter written to a friend in 1500.

 

[malingenie]

And what about a book that 'glorified' Columbus? To the bonfire?

No? I don't know man, I see the nuance between these things.

 

[captainpat]

History books are a thing. I don't need a statue to learn about Columbus.

 

[ahoyhoy]

And what about a book that 'glorified' Columbus? To the bonfire?

Well one takes up less space and is less publicly visible. Statues are on public land because they're meant to serve some public good by providing people historical/social context and a social role model to look up to and try to emulate. It's why you don't see any statues of Hitler, Stalin etc. on public land, yet there are still plenty of books glorifying what they did freely available.

 

[Ros8105]

Yeah, lets do this! Destroy the past!!

Gamers are so smart. We should rule the world tbqh

Exactly. Can't believe people on here think this is OK.

 

[NewGame]

There's a difference between destroying statues that glorify Christopher Columbus and burning books that discuss his history.

 

[MrPressStart]

I think there is a wrong and a right way to go about doing things. Taking it upon one's self to destroy historic monuments is downright disgusting. Another poster had it right... just petition to take the monument down and put it in a museum.

I think we are getting to a point where everybody needs to chill the fuck out.

 

[MUnited83]

Remember all those delightful communist countries that murdered magnitudes more people than the Nazis ever did? This is how they started too, by destroying their history instead of learning from it. Reactionary justice from anarchists and vigilantes with a penchant for destruction is not what we need right now. All this shit will do is lead to 8 years of Trump.

Destroying monuments, even if they are for racist individuals, is just white washing American History. Let those monuments stand as daily reminders that we are better now, and how bad things were back then.

So are you saying that Germans are going to turn into anarchists and vigilantes anytime soon because of all the Nazi monuments destroyed after the war?
The liberated former Soviet countries that destroyed Stalin's statues are going to transform into mass murdering countries as well?


I don't think you thought your argument throughly at all.

 

[gutter_trash]

Columbus was a genocidal maniac, a fraud and oddly overhyped by Americans for some reason.

the first Europeans to land in the Americas were the Vikings (Leif Ericson) 500 years before Columbus


why do you guys overhype him anyway?

 

[Skellig Gra]

The removal of statues is sometimes contextually understandable. I come from a city which used to have the world's largest statue of Stalin. It was taken down in less that 10 years during a period of so called de-Stalinsation, when Soviet countries began to face the ongoing horror and trauma of Stalin's reign.

I'm sorry, but Stalin to Prague in 1962 is not Columbus to Baltimore in 2017.

I can of course sympathize with why it was torn down but I always wanted to see that statue. Seeing the Metronome in its place, the scale of it must have been very impressive.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think there is a wrong and a right way to go about doing things. Taking it upon one's self to destroy historic monuments is downright disgusting. Another poster had it right... just petition to take the monument down and put it in a museum.

I think we are getting to a point where everybody needs to chill the fuck out.

To clarify, what is the next step if a petition fails?

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

I think there is a wrong and a right way to go about doing things. Taking it upon one's self to destroy historic monuments is downright disgusting. Another poster had it right... just petition to take the monument down and put it in a museum.

I think we are getting to a point where everybody needs to chill the fuck out.

That line is already long gone mate.

While I`m not for destroying the statues and think this kind of act is barbaric despite the cringey mental gymnastics to justify it, I`ve always found it ridiculous that a piece of shit of that proportion has his own national holiday. That should have been the focus, although when replaced with another national holiday so the American people don`t lose a free vacation day per year. Yall get shafted when it comes to vacation compared to the rest of the world.

 

[MrPressStart]

Columbus was a genocidal maniac, a fraud and oddly overhyped by Americans for some reason.

the first Europeans to land in the Americas were the Vikings (Leif Ericson) 500 years before Columbus


why do you guys overhype him anyway?

We think. Nobody really knows who the first person is/ was. Fuck, for all we know, it could have been shipwrecked cook. Truth is... every few years it seems they find something older than previously thought.

 

[NewGame]

To clarify, what is the step if a petition fails?

Continue to drop your "um actually"s at social gatherings you're always invited to.

 

[Bko]

Good

 

[gutter_trash]

Columbus Day should be replaced by Native Americans Day or Indenous People's Day

Columbus didn't even succeed in his initial mission anyway, Overhyped historical figure for popaganda Manifest Destiny purposes

We think. Nobody really knows who the first person is/ was. Fuck, for all we know, it could have been shipwrecked cook. Truth is... every few years it seems they find something older than previously thought.

Fishermen went to Newfoundland for Cod fish

 

[ClosingADoor]

So are you saying that Germans are going to turn into anarchists and vigilantes anytime soon because of all the Nazi monuments destroyed after the war?
The liberated former Soviet countries that destroyed Stalin's statues are going to transform into mass murdering countries as well?


I don't think you thought your argument throughly at all.

Like ultratruman said in a post above, there is a large difference. One is when a people gets liberated from oppression or defeats an oppressor. Now we are looking at people randomly destroying stuff because of events 500 years ago. With the latter, it would be more useful to have a proper discussion about it, move the statues and such and then have historians decide what to do with it. Not have random people make that decision based on how they feel at night with a hammer in their hands.

To clarify, what is the next step if a petition fails?

Run for local council on a program for removing these things. That is how we do most things when you want a change in your community.

 

[cwmartin]

This, so much. Early 16th century was still very barbaric. What happened after the discovery of America was awful, but now it serves as a "things not to repeat again" and shows us who we were in the past, even if it was wrong.

Do we also tear down the pyramids too?

We learn about plenty of bad history without glorifying the worst ones in monuments. You think the history of columbus would cease to exist without these shitty monuments?

 

[MrPressStart]

To clarify, what is the next step if a petition fails?

I would say to start grass roots movements to protest... but you don't have to rip or tear the thing down. That solves nothing.
My point is there is more than one way to skin a cat. You should not start at the last resort.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I would say to start grass roots movements to protest... but you don't have to rip or tear the thing down. That solves nothing.
My point is there is more than one way to skin a cat. You should not start at the last resort.

This isn't the first time people pushed against celebration of Columbus.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Columbus was a genocidal maniac, a fraud and oddly overhyped by Americans for some reason.

the first Europeans to land in the Americas were the Vikings (Leif Ericson) 500 years before Columbus


why do you guys overhype him anyway?

And the first European to rediscover North America who was a contemporary to Columbus was John Cabot. Columbus historical significance is on a large view of the age of discovery and of the history of the Carribean not of North America. It was the John Cabot who put in motion the colonizing of Canada and the US not to mention didn't commit atrocities ,had an awesome beard and wasn't ugly as sin as Columbus is.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Columbus was the John the Baptist of White Supremacy. Every single statue of him should be brought down and Italian-Americans have plenty of people to celebrate who aren't child rapists and monsters.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Good to see people still think America's education system is statue based, and that by destroying statues you somehow are destroying the time space continuum.

I don't even know how we know about the American Revolutionary War since King George III's statue in Manhattan was destroyed in 1776 O_O

 

[Seductivpancakes]

We have actual documentation and witness accounts of what kind of shit lord Columbus is but instead of reading, people rather stare at statues honoring him.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Columbus was the John the Baptist of White Supremacy. Every single statue of him should be brought down and Italian-Americans have plenty of people to celebrate who aren't child rapists and monsters.

Yep. Man fed live babies to dogs. That goes well beyond simply being less palatable in a modern day light, that shit was always monstrous - or at least, always should have been.

 

[Dude Abides]

The removal of statues is sometimes contextually understandable. I come from a city which used to have the world's largest statue of Stalin. It was taken down in less that 10 years during a period of so called de-Stalinsation, when Soviet countries began to face the ongoing horror and trauma of Stalin's reign.

I'm sorry, but Stalin to Prague in 1962 is not Columbus to Baltimore in 2017.

So basically monuments to people you personally like or don't care about should stay but those to people who offend your feelings should go.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Columbus was a genocidal maniac, a fraud and oddly overhyped by Americans for some reason.

the first Europeans to land in the Americas were the Vikings (Leif Ericson) 500 years before Columbus


why do you guys overhype him anyway?

Without Columbus, Europeans wouldn't have become involved in the Americas when they did. Even Lief Erikson was the first European to discover North America, his discovery did not make any waves and would have continued to have been ignored for the foreseeable future.

Without Columbus, Spain would have continued to be a minor player in Europe instead of the world's biggest empire in the 16th century. 20 million+ Native Americans would have never encountered small pox and would still be alive. The thriving Aztec civilization would have continued to stand and possibly expand throughout Central America.

Monster or Hero, denying his impact is denying historical context.

 

[y2dvd]

Going through the "proper channels" is naively wishful thinking. You don't think it's already been tried with this or recently with the confederate monuments? Drastic change requires drastic measures.

 

[MrPressStart]

Then people need to try harder. I don't buy into the fact that this is the only thing that can be done. To be truthful, destroying the statue is taking the lazy and easy way out. The people that did it, have not really made anything better.
Its not like taking down the statue changes history.

As an adult I often reflect back on my life and some of the choices I made. Some were good and some were bad. I cant hide from those choices. Some of them have stuck with me all these years. Just like we as americans cant hide from our history. Its fucked up and people good and bad, young and old, black and white have died.
I think its important to look back on our past to see where we have come and where we can go.

 

[Neuromancer]

I'm a big fan of these monuments getting taken down but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. The right way is to do it through the system, propose the idea and have the city council vote on it, as they did to remove the Confederate statues here in Baltimore. The wrong way obviously is to do this. If the vandals gets caught I'm not going to feel bad for them.

Going through the "proper channels" is naively wishful thinking. You don't think it's already been tried with this or recently with the confederate monuments? Drastic change requires drastic measures.

Baltimore Takes Down Its Confederate Monuments

The city removed them less than a week after violent protests broke out in Charlottesville, Virginia, over a statue of Robert E. Lee.

 

[A Link to the Past]

We have actual documentation and witness accounts of what kind of shit lord Columbus is but instead of reading, people rather stare at statues honoring him.

Actually, all of the books about Columbus are gone now, thanks to this vandal.

I'm a big fan of these monuments getting taken down but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. The right way is to do it through the system, propose the idea and have the city council vote on it, as they did to remove the Confederate statues here in Baltimore. The wrong way obviously is to do this. If the vandals gets caught I'm not going to feel bad for them.


Baltimore Takes Down Its Confederate Monuments

The city removed them less than a week after violent protests broke out in Charlottesville, Virginia, over a statue of Robert E. Lee.

It took a Nazi terrorist attack to get them removed, that's not a good example of them going on their own.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Going through the "proper channels" is naively wishful thinking. You don't think it's already been tried with this or recently with the confederate monuments? Drastic change requires drastic measures.

Drastic change is not a random person going around at night smashing things up when he feels like it.

 

[aeolist]

I'm a big fan of these monuments getting taken down but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. The right way is to do it through the system, propose the idea and have the city council vote on it, as they did to remove the Confederate statues here in Baltimore. The wrong way obviously is to do this. If the vandals gets caught I'm not going to feel bad for them.


Baltimore Takes Down Its Confederate Monuments

The city removed them less than a week after violent protests broke out in Charlottesville, Virginia, over a statue of Robert E. Lee.

uh do you think baltimore would have acted that quickly and decisively if not for the incidents in charlottesville and durham?

 

[gutter_trash]

lots of you guys have not read history.

because Columbus' mission had nothing to do with discovering America, it was to find a route to India via the West... thus why he Donald Trumply named the Natives as "Indians"
He was so obstinant of not being "wrong" that he didn't want to admit of not landing in India.

plus, he was a genocidal maniac and a greedy fuck.

Natives were 100% exterminated on the Island of Hispanola (Haiti/ Dominican Republic).

the reason why there are Africans there was because they replaced dead Native slave laborers with African slaves.

Without Columbus, Europeans wouldn't have become involved in the Americas when they did. Even Lief Erikson was the first European to discover North America, his discovery did not make any waves and would have continued to have been ignored for the foreseeable future.

Without Columbus, Spain would have continued to be a minor player in Europe instead of the world's biggest empire in the 16th century. 20 million+ Native Americans would have never encountered small pox and would still be alive. The thriving Aztec civilization would have continued to stand and possibly expand throughout Central America.

Monster or Hero, denying his impact is denying historical context.

American History Hype.

The point of the Age of Explorers was not to discover new land, the point was to secure a Trade Route with Asia that was blocked off by the Ottoman.

 

[aeolist]

Drastic change is not a random person going around at night smashing things up when he feels like it.

"vandals" pulling down a statue in durham seems to have had an immensely positive effect

 

[DerZuhälter]

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

 

[horkrux]

Then people need to try harder. I don't buy into the fact that this is the only thing that can be done. To be truthful, destroying the statue is taking the lazy and easy way out. The people that did it, have not really made anything better.
Its not like taking down the statue changes history.

As an adult I often reflect back on my life and some of the choices I made. Some were good and some were bad. I cant hide from those choices. Some of them have stuck with me all these years. Just like we as americans cant hide from our history. Its fucked up and people good and bad, young and old, black and white have died.
I think its important to look back on our past to see where we have come and where we can go.

You don't need a statue to look back on the past. In fact these monuments serve no other purpose than glorification, unless you explicitly remodel and repurpose them.

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

There is no significance to this monument other than being old. Not comparable to the pyramids at all.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

Columbus fed babies to dogs

 

[Caelus]

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

How many false equivalencies can we come up with today?

 

[ahoyhoy]

lots of you guys have not read history.

because Columbus' mission had nothing to do with discovering America, it was to find a route to India via the West... thus why he Donald Trumply named the Natives as "Indians"
He was so obstinant of not being "wrong" that he didn't want to admit of not landing in India.

plus, he was a genocidal maniac and a greedy fuck.

Natives were 100% exterminated on the Island of Hispanola (Haiti/ Dominican Republic).

the reason why there are Africans there was because they replaced dead Native slave laborers with African slaves.

Whether or not he lucked out when discovering America for Spain is irrelevant.

Without his voyage of stupidity, there would be no America as we know it. His impact cannot be ignored.

Of course this has nothing to do with the statue argument, I just wanted to correct you in trying to dismiss the impact of Columbus.

 

[RinsFury]

Can't say I feel bad about this at all. Smash them all to bits.

 

[ClosingADoor]

"vandals" pulling down a statue in durham seems to have had an immensely positive effect

It seems they have been charged for it. Which should be the case here also if the person is found. You don't go randomly destroying things.

And even then, I'd see a difference between an actual protest movement calling for this and an individual going about it in secret.

Nobody is saying we need to honor Columbus. Nobody is saying we need to keep statues or monuments for him around. But you can't just have individuals doing that as they please at random.

 

[cwmartin]

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

Also slaves didn't build the pyramids. Also the pyramids are not monuments and physical monuments to a slave owner. They are the burial tomb of their emperor. All of you guys complaining about the context, still cant seem to quite grasp it.

Removing monuments to columbus does not remove the historical significance columbus had. It's removing glorification for a really shitty person nobody should glorify.

 

[travisbickle]

Take it down.

Society's too obsessed with the past, look to the future.

*I do not agree with radical islamists destroying true historic monuments in Arabic countries. Before anyone starts that argument.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

So basically monuments to people you personally like or don't care about should stay but those to people who offend your feelings should go.

He's also saying it's been a long ass time and people need to get over it lol.

 

[zeemumu]

Was Columbus the first milkshake duck?

 

[TBiddy]

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

Sounds reasonable. There's numerous old buildings in Denmark that was founded by slave money. Might as well take them down, while we're at it. I believe there are also monuments to several viking kings. They were bastards, that raped and pillaged.

 

[thehypocrite]

Good. He's horrible and responsible for genocide.

 

[Tonedeff]

Also the pyramids are not monuments and physical monuments to a slave owner. They are the burial tomb of their emperor.

Lol

 

[Dude Abides]

He's also saying it's been a long ass time and people need to get over it lol.

So in 100 years Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot statues will magically become ok? Seems pretty dumb.