That's true. I always felt that playing defensively when it came to tourism/culture is a losing game in the long run because of how easily they tend to outnumber me. Though, I guess if you're pumping out enough culture and wrecking other civs' cities than it isn't a problem in the end.
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Civilization V Brave New World |OT| More than Content Tourism
- Thread starter Fragamemnon
- Start date
BigJonsson
Member
lol Venice
I have too much gold, I am buying every building I can and upgrading all units when available
Other than France declaring war on me for buying influence and easily beating them back due to my ability to buy units like mad it's been pretty easy
And now Attila and Theodora both declared war on Napoleon so that'll be dealt with soon
I have too much gold, I am buying every building I can and upgrading all units when available
Other than France declaring war on me for buying influence and easily beating them back due to my ability to buy units like mad it's been pretty easy
And now Attila and Theodora both declared war on Napoleon so that'll be dealt with soon
Fragamemnon
Member
As a focus of effort, yes. But you will still want great works, cultural landmarks, and archeology artifacts to be produced. One of the fundamental changes to BNW vs. G&K was that cultural buildings had their actual cultural output literally gutted. If you want reasonable culture from them, and therefore reasonable cultural output for social policies and cultural defense if you "go against the grain" of the rest of the Civs in the game, you need those artist specialists and great works. Later on you can use them for golden ages, rapidly progressing through an ideology tree (w/ two writers, for example).
Note that even just a minor amount of tourism output can affect a Civ with poor cultural output in a destabilizing way. Autocratic AIs - your asshole warmongers like Oda, Shaka, etc.- can suffer through the aggregate superior output of tourism from all Civs even if yours only reaches "exotic" status with them.
The system works and is a good one, though a bit fiddly on optimizing the themeing bonuses.
Frag is right about great works significantly contributing to culture.
One way around that is that if you're a sprawling empire with good amount of production going, you can tech to archealogy and grab all the antiquities fast. As long you tech fast, you're just constrained by the number of museums you can build.
One way around that is that if you're a sprawling empire with good amount of production going, you can tech to archealogy and grab all the antiquities fast. As long you tech fast, you're just constrained by the number of museums you can build.
Venice is easy mode. It's so well tailored to a specific play style that it's hard to mess up with it. Even on tough difficulties you already know what to do and how to do it. I wish the game had come with a civ that could act as a foil to Venice's play style.
What's the best way to get optics on the entire map? Just spam scouts? Kinda wish intrigue and religion was more solid, only getting XP from tech stealing kinda blows, wish I could have more agents. Intrigue barely seems to trigger too, though I can't tell if that's because the AI doesn't have much going on or my spies are incompatant jackasses
I really like the idea of idealogies and religion though, you gotta try and control these virus-like entities that are spreading independent of your control that have tangible benefits and losses, so management is real important
I really like the idea of idealogies and religion though, you gotta try and control these virus-like entities that are spreading independent of your control that have tangible benefits and losses, so management is real important
Best way to level up your spy is put him in your capital to catch opposing spies. Of course, I always had a good tech rate relative to other civs, might not work if you don't.
Only certain wonders and social policies grant extra spies I think. Stealing tech is always kinda... it's nice if it happens thing. Diplomats are a cool addition though especially if you're going for cultural... for world congress, the amounts AI are requesting are really a lot. But I guess it makes sense considering how much impact some of those resolutions have.
Also, the Level 3 freedom tenet that grants you 4 influence per turn with the city state you have trade route with is crazy awesome, especially in the game where Austria already took half of them. The level 2 that grants you instant 6 free units is awesome for small empires too. Makes me think terracotta army could really kick ass if you're in war.
Fragamemnon
Member
Intrigue triggers whenver the "establish surveillance" completes or the completion of "gathering intelligence" occurs. Diplomats in my experience get more intrigue than spies, so if you are just sending to Civs to "farm" intrigue so you can raise your standing with other Civs by sharing that intrigue, then I would go the diplomat vs. spy route.
After 2 days with my first Civilization game (V with gold, all DLCs and Brave new world)... I am already addicted. 13 hours, and i am currently playing/learning the game as Rome, expanding a lot and being aggressive (i built a nice army). I am enjoying this game so much, even if I just learned the basics and how the various systems work.
Mostly Prince for now so I can get the hang of everything. So long as you avoid war long enough to get some trade routes going I can't imagine higher difficulties being much of a problem for Venice. The amount of gold you pull in per turn from trade routes can get quite excessive.
Emperor for Civ V has always been the sweet spot for the amount of benefits the AI gets without feeling like too much of an uphill battle. Immortal can get a bit masochistic in the early game but is still achievable in a pretty wide variety of ways.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I'm gonna try Venice on easier difficulty, it feels like I might have a hard time with it.
Fragamemnon
Member
Immortal isn't too bad once you get used to it. It is the highest difficultly where you can still play any of the Civs in a flavorful sort of way that fits their unique abilities and units. I think the jump to Emperor to Immortal is a good one to strive for if you really want to start digging into the game's mechanics and optimizing your play.
Deity on the other hand is zero fucks given, "no fun allowed" sort of strategy gaming I look for when I want to either be humbled badly or feel like a badass for winning.
Deity on the other hand is zero fucks given, "no fun allowed" sort of strategy gaming I look for when I want to either be humbled badly or feel like a badass for winning.
Venice is very strong even for warfare. Cheap research agreements + Big Ben + Great Lighthouse + Exploration + Commerce and, if you pick the techs in a decent order, you're set with submarines with +2 sight and 8 movements while other civs still have caravels and privateers. Then you can get flight before anyone else and use your crazy gold per turn (I was making ~500-600/turn with 12 routes and Tithe, but with a huge army) to buy bombers and crush every enemy near your cities.
Venice feels overpowered IMO, I had every city-state on my payroll and enough friends for a diplomatic victory in 2 different games (King and Emperor, Small Continents), but the strategy above was enough for me to win by domination while the other civilizations barely had Dynamite.
I know that military tech rush is a viable strategy for lots of civs in the game, but only with Venice you can make such an insane amount of gold and build/replenish your army so quickly.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Makes things much better. I always have pretty much played on Emp with some games going either way a couple times every now and then.
Fragamemnon
Member
Yeah you don't even have to wait for subs on a water map. Build a pile of great galeasses while teching astronomy, then oxford navigation for frigates. Send out with a couple of rush-built privateers so you can snowball your navy while taking cities.
Venice does this really well because it techs good early (not so good later) due to lightning fast National College and can secure enough cash to afford the mass upgrades easily in addition to the Privateer purchases as your navy goes out hunting. The main problem is actually managing happiness as you conquer.
Venice does this really well because it techs good early (not so good later) due to lightning fast National College and can secure enough cash to afford the mass upgrades easily in addition to the Privateer purchases as your navy goes out hunting. The main problem is actually managing happiness as you conquer.
Another easy-to-get-rich civ is Askia in huge maps (where there is loads of barbarian camps everywhere). Just choose Honor as your first policy. I have 5000+ gold in turn 100 in the slowest game speed. Just keep 3-4 units chasing barb camps all the time and the money keeps piling up.
This tactic works even better now because AI doesn't settle that much anymore.
This tactic works even better now because AI doesn't settle that much anymore.
Is there something else to Venice for a lightning fast National College other than just because it's stuck at one city?
Double the number of trade routes in one city sounds like a big deal. Trade routes get all the gold modifiers from buildings right?
Did the AIs get upgraded to be better at naval warfare? Pre-BNW any water map is a ton easier because the AIs were terrible at it.
Human_Shield
Member
Honestly, they don't seem any smarter at naval warfare than before. I used 2 subs to sink the Spanish and British fleets, and they just kinda sat there, for the most part. At one point, one of the subs was surrounded, and they chose to attack a nearby allied city-state, instead of dealing with the more immediate threat. Also, gifting subs to city states is useless. They never seem to use them right.
Fragamemnon
Member
They are reasonably competent if they have a surface fleet going in the renassiance period. After that they drop off dramatically, but it is really no worse than what players abuse with bombers later on anyway.
Fragamemnon
Member
You circle back for Philosophy right after getting Optics, and the food shuttled back to Venice via your first city-state acquisition allows for a nice big city that can build the NC fast (and it is cheaper too because it only counts for one city in its cost).
That's the ghetto of breakfast land
Interesting, but big cities doesn't necessarily build much faster. I shall try that out.
BigJonsson
Member
Was close to a science victory with Venice but time was running out so voted myself world leader.......ended the game with 39,000 gold lol
Oh and the Huns started threatening everyone with nukes, and after I passed a non-proliferation resolution...........they nuked Paris
Oh and the Huns started threatening everyone with nukes, and after I passed a non-proliferation resolution...........they nuked Paris
dapperbandit
Banned
Does choosing a particular ideology affect which victory types are open to you?
When you pick an ideology it shows you icons for victory types. Off the top of my head, Freedom and Order get icons for the Science Victory but Autocracy doesn't. Does that mean you can't win a science victory while using Autocracy or is it just suggesting that Order and Freedom have tenets that make them more suitable?
When you pick an ideology it shows you icons for victory types. Off the top of my head, Freedom and Order get icons for the Science Victory but Autocracy doesn't. Does that mean you can't win a science victory while using Autocracy or is it just suggesting that Order and Freedom have tenets that make them more suitable?
Right now I'm in the middle of a game as the mongols where I'm trying to do exactly this. All greater writers turn into culture boosts, all great artists turn into golden ages. So far it has meant that I've gotten more social policies than I know what to do with, and I've probably also created a nice chunk of culture to stay resistant to the other civs' tourism for quite a while.
PS: Mounted archers are straight up BROKEN.
No, different ideologies just provide bigger bonuses for different victory types. You can still do a science victory as an autocrat if you want to.
dapperbandit
Banned
You mean passive bonuses or simply what's available in their tenets?
Just whats in the tenants. Some of that stuff is fairly weak but some of it is really powerful. e.g. a Freedom based civ is almost always going to be able to stop an Order based civ from a diplomatic victory because each unit gifted gives 20 influence and each trade route gives 4 influence a turn, so even with piles of cash you aren't going to be able to hang onto your allies.
Similarly for science - an Order civ is going to have an extra 25% bonus to science in each of its cities, and can use Great Engineers to complete spaceship parts so they will have a real edge over Autocracy civs that don't have any bonuses.
It is possible to win via the "odd one out" victory type for each tenant, but generally if you can it's because you are dominating the game to an extent you have effectively already won. If it is at all close you are probably best sticking to one of your supported victory types.
Emperor on normal conditions, Immortal if Archipelago.
I'm at loss on how to beat Deity without lux sell spamming, in fact. Haven't even tried, and Immortal took a lot of tries, in fact.
Just the tenets. Autocracy doesn't provide you with anything more than a tenet with +5 science in your capital, so it's not very great for a science victory (and it doesn't have a tier 3 tenet dedicated to a science victory like freedom and order).
Gotta keep an eye on those city states!
Here's some screenshots from my first BNW victory, France, Emperor difficulty, turn 367 cultural victory.
Well since this is my first try there's obviously a lot of things that could've done better. Religion for example just end up being a waste. Having mostly peaceful and arts loving civs helped a lot I'd say.
I teched straight up to writing to build the great library first and postponed any expansions. After I got that up, I built a settler and an escort archer, sent him right up to block Egypt and America with an expansion about 18 tiles away while I finished building the National College. Had to postpone settling him for around 3 turns after my settler got in place. I was kinda surprised that neither of them bothered attacking me the rest of the game. Maybe it's because of the trade routes?
Discovered the internet in 1941, pretty much a must for a cultural victory.
Austria was pretty much going on world domination starting by swallowing up like 6 city states then going after everyone else in her continent. She had like 80% more score than me and I was in second place near the end.
Here's Paris, generating 590 culture a turn and the main tourism generator. I think I lost a world wonder or two in the process but I almost got the ones I could. Sydney Opera House needs a coastal city so that's out.
So what's the side effects of having a lot of tourism? A lot of unhappiness for everyone not on the same ideology. If I hadn't had so much culture, I definitely would have incurred a ton of happiness since everyone was with Order. Austria still got like -31 unhappiness, which is definitely affected by the number of cities she had.
Just the scores, cities, and my social policies near the end.
Well since this is my first try there's obviously a lot of things that could've done better. Religion for example just end up being a waste. Having mostly peaceful and arts loving civs helped a lot I'd say.
I teched straight up to writing to build the great library first and postponed any expansions. After I got that up, I built a settler and an escort archer, sent him right up to block Egypt and America with an expansion about 18 tiles away while I finished building the National College. Had to postpone settling him for around 3 turns after my settler got in place. I was kinda surprised that neither of them bothered attacking me the rest of the game. Maybe it's because of the trade routes?
Architechnophile
Member
Things are coming down to the wire in my Venice playthrough on King.
I was making a hard push for a science victory, when I noticed two things:
1) Despite his 4th place standing in points, Alexander had gotten a sizable lead in tech, seemingly out of nowhere. My trade routes to him suddenly started returning large amounts of science, and after scouting, I saw that he had machine guns and battleships. I was just getting to Great War infantry, and was still rolling with frigates.
2) He was close to locking up all of the city states, and handily. He got his standing approval with most of them up to just under 300 - a point where even I couldn't buy enough back to make it worth the effort.
So I put my reserves towards upping my navy. Hoarded cash, pushed hard to battleships, moved the entirety of my navy to his most exposed port, and upgraded the lot of 'em in one turn.
He happened to be attacking little ol' Polynesia at the time, and had the bulk of his fleet in one place. I war dec'd by blowing 3/4 of his navy out of the water in a single turn. In fairness, we weren't on great terms...he should have seen it coming.
I've been bombarding him from off-shore for a while now. Since he's still holding sway in the World Congress, nothing will serve but fully eradicating him. Thing is, my happiness is a limiter. I'm one of only two Freedom ideologies on the map (everyone else, Alexander included, is Order) and I'm biting down on about -34 to my happiness as a result (+4 total). So I can't claim all his stuff for myself. Returned Polynesia's capital only for Shaka to take it (fine by me). Gave another to Assyria, and claimed one for myself. Alexander's now allied with every single city state, so I'm at war with 'em all, consequently. They're wreaking havoc on my trade routes. I should have clamped down on this much earlier.
Still, just 4 cities to go. I think I've crippled his economy enough that he can't buy the remaining votes needed for a diplomatic victory, but it was damned close. And now Germany has snuck into the power void, conquering most of Arabia to grab 1st place. But they're heavily invested in a military victory, and I'm not too worried about that.
In retrospect, I'd have balanced myself with more cultural output. I've got too little cultural defense, and no tourist output to speak of, so it's been a constant game of happiness juggling and barbarian spawns at my capital. I could really have used more social policies to help.
But still, so far, so good.
I was making a hard push for a science victory, when I noticed two things:
1) Despite his 4th place standing in points, Alexander had gotten a sizable lead in tech, seemingly out of nowhere. My trade routes to him suddenly started returning large amounts of science, and after scouting, I saw that he had machine guns and battleships. I was just getting to Great War infantry, and was still rolling with frigates.
2) He was close to locking up all of the city states, and handily. He got his standing approval with most of them up to just under 300 - a point where even I couldn't buy enough back to make it worth the effort.
So I put my reserves towards upping my navy. Hoarded cash, pushed hard to battleships, moved the entirety of my navy to his most exposed port, and upgraded the lot of 'em in one turn.
He happened to be attacking little ol' Polynesia at the time, and had the bulk of his fleet in one place. I war dec'd by blowing 3/4 of his navy out of the water in a single turn. In fairness, we weren't on great terms...he should have seen it coming.
I've been bombarding him from off-shore for a while now. Since he's still holding sway in the World Congress, nothing will serve but fully eradicating him. Thing is, my happiness is a limiter. I'm one of only two Freedom ideologies on the map (everyone else, Alexander included, is Order) and I'm biting down on about -34 to my happiness as a result (+4 total). So I can't claim all his stuff for myself. Returned Polynesia's capital only for Shaka to take it (fine by me). Gave another to Assyria, and claimed one for myself. Alexander's now allied with every single city state, so I'm at war with 'em all, consequently. They're wreaking havoc on my trade routes. I should have clamped down on this much earlier.
Still, just 4 cities to go. I think I've crippled his economy enough that he can't buy the remaining votes needed for a diplomatic victory, but it was damned close. And now Germany has snuck into the power void, conquering most of Arabia to grab 1st place. But they're heavily invested in a military victory, and I'm not too worried about that.
In retrospect, I'd have balanced myself with more cultural output. I've got too little cultural defense, and no tourist output to speak of, so it's been a constant game of happiness juggling and barbarian spawns at my capital. I could really have used more social policies to help.
But still, so far, so good.
Going for a cultural victory, do any of you think it is worth it to:
A) semi-focus on your religion, in hopes of world religion for the tourism multiplier - possibly at the expense of your culture
B) not take an ideology so that you avoid the -34% reduction in tourism because of the difference in ideology between you and x civilization
And is it okay to miss out on any of the social policy cost reduction wonders, or does that mean it is over?
A) semi-focus on your religion, in hopes of world religion for the tourism multiplier - possibly at the expense of your culture
B) not take an ideology so that you avoid the -34% reduction in tourism because of the difference in ideology between you and x civilization
And is it okay to miss out on any of the social policy cost reduction wonders, or does that mean it is over?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Poland has better horse units?
Religion is only worth it if you get it really early and spread fast. Otherwise, just adopt the religion leader as your religion imo. I don't think you can avoid taking an ideology, but you can change later on, not sure what the exact penalties are.
Social policy cost reduction isn't really important for cultural victories I think.
Starting to play Venice on immortal on Archipelago and I think I'm getting this wrong. Before BNW, OCC is all about the tech, but it feels like as Venice you want to just focus on gold generation and signing research agreements. Hmm.
You have to choose an ideology. If you don't care about ideology than just keep an eye out for what ideology most civs follow.
LumpOfCole
Member
I just won a cultural victory as Brazil.
America was a dominating military juggernaut, but imploded about 4/5 into the game when I chose Freedom as my ideology and America chose Order. Because America was already dealing with unhappiness, my cultural exports and promises of Freedom surged a metric ton of more unhappiness into America ( on top of the natural unhappiness America was attaining by taking over all of Ghangis Khan's, Bismarck's, and Nebuchadnezzar's cities).
Halfway across the world, in a single turn, Boston outright revolted against America and just granted itself to me. I never sent a single military unit within 4 squares of American territory. I let Boston turn it into a puppet state, and denied Open Border requests now that I attained America's citrus. No more petty trade deals with that warmonger.
America was beginning to raze its newly acquired cities, just to get a hold of its unhappiness. It wasn't enough and civil war was breaking out all over America's military as it fought itself just to stay alive. They never recovered and my tourism output reached heights of 700-800 when combined with Carnival and International Games bonuses.
America was a dominating military juggernaut, but imploded about 4/5 into the game when I chose Freedom as my ideology and America chose Order. Because America was already dealing with unhappiness, my cultural exports and promises of Freedom surged a metric ton of more unhappiness into America ( on top of the natural unhappiness America was attaining by taking over all of Ghangis Khan's, Bismarck's, and Nebuchadnezzar's cities).
Halfway across the world, in a single turn, Boston outright revolted against America and just granted itself to me. I never sent a single military unit within 4 squares of American territory. I let Boston turn it into a puppet state, and denied Open Border requests now that I attained America's citrus. No more petty trade deals with that warmonger.
America was beginning to raze its newly acquired cities, just to get a hold of its unhappiness. It wasn't enough and civil war was breaking out all over America's military as it fought itself just to stay alive. They never recovered and my tourism output reached heights of 700-800 when combined with Carnival and International Games bonuses.
One Foul Note
Member
Nice, I do like the new ways of dealing with warmongers without flat out going to war with them that BNW has introduced. I'm currently on a game with Venice, nearing the endgame now. But a while ago Denmark started getting really aggressive and he was very powerful. Which might have been partly my fault because I had been trading with him for most of the early game and I feel he was putting all that cash into expanding his empire.
Anyway, he gets aggressive, attacks me, Babylon & China (allies). He immediately raids a lot of my trade routes so I start really hurting and the others aren't doing too well either but I manage to hold off him taking any cities. I break a peace treaty and my diplomat immediately tells me that the gold I had to bribe him with is being spent on building an even larger army. Before he can attack the next world congress happens, standing army tax and trade embargo on Denmark, both pass. Suddenly Denmarks army start to implode without me even doing anything all while I build up my trade routes again and within about 10-15 turns Denmarks dominating army goes from outnumbering me to a tiny force that I probably could have taken if I wasn't all merciful. He hasn't started any shit since.
A Serious Man
Member
If you have a strong tourism output, other Civs are more likely to adopt the ideology you picked. When they do that it gives you a +34% (I think, can't really remember the percentage) increase in tourism and helps with a cultural victory quite a bit.
Architechnophile
Member
For reals. Countering the almost -40 happiness I'm getting for being the sole beacon of Freedom in the known world is rough. But I'll teach them all that Freedom is a basic human right.
Probably by killing them.
At higher difficulties tourism will have less effect on the AIs with different ideologies due to the huge happiness bonuses they have. So it's meh if you're not going for cultural victory.
Man, I have no idea what I'm doing with Venice at Immortal. So many things to build yet hard to choose what to prioritize. Low production and you're basically simply losing gold without trade routes is killing it. Build buildings or build trade routes? City placement is tricky too, build beside mountain (for observatory) or build beside sea (for more gold from trade routes)? Locations that fulfill both of those conditions then will not be close to a river so then you have low food which kills you more than the other two.
Maybe I should come back to this sometime else.
Man, I have no idea what I'm doing with Venice at Immortal. So many things to build yet hard to choose what to prioritize. Low production and you're basically simply losing gold without trade routes is killing it. Build buildings or build trade routes? City placement is tricky too, build beside mountain (for observatory) or build beside sea (for more gold from trade routes)? Locations that fulfill both of those conditions then will not be close to a river so then you have low food which kills you more than the other two.
Maybe I should come back to this sometime else.
Architechnophile
Member
I'm not on Immortal, so take this with a grain of salt but:
You need to be on the sea. The sea trade routes are easier to manage, with a better range of travel and easier ability to change between different destination, and they bring in more cash. My Venice strategy has been trade, before all else. Maximizing strengths, and all that. It's handy that money in Civ V can be used to further any other goal.
If you're strapped for food, then send a caravan or two from cities with better food production back to your capital. They can bring in huge amounts of food.