Cleveland police officer shoots 12-year-old boy carrying BB gun

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Loofy said:
Again. Switch the people around and dont think for a second it wouldnt be considered a crime.
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A kid shooting a cop is a crime.
Edit: or do you mean a black cop shooting a white kid?
It's the same situation. Guess I can't account for individual (or societal) racism though.

Either way, they should be held to the same standard, and if I were a cop, I told someone to put their hands down and they went for a gun, I'd probably shoot too.
(unless they were clearly under 10 or something, then I have no idea what Id do)


A little girl on the other hand....
(my sexism is showing)
 
Loofy said:
Again. Switch the people around and dont think for a second it wouldnt be considered a crime.
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What? This makes no sense. There's plenty of things you can't do to a police officer that they have the legal authority to do to you. You can't just swap the roles and say look it's a crime and have some sort of reasonable comparable point.
 
JABEE said:
Children are capable of using fire arms. I don't think your macro-analysis of this issue can be applied directly to this case. The police officer shouldn't have to answer for "well, I haven't heard anything on the news lately about children shooting and killing a police officer, so this threat isn't real."

Based on the present evidence, I don't understand how you could think the officer acted wrongly based on the information he had. There are clear-cut rules that police follow in instances of stand-offs.

I can't blame this one cop or place him/her on a stage to be some larger representation of negative police interactions with minority citizens. I think it's a large leap to make.
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You are misinterpreting my posts. I don't think he acted "wrongly". I think he acted unmercifully. I think he judged the situation and the boy unfairly. Something that's unfair can still be legal or justified. I doubt he would have shot a white boy or white girl. While shooting a white boy or girl in that situation would have been justified the cop would have made a lot of automatic decisions and immediate threat assessments. Where the white child would have been given more leeway (perhaps against the cops own safety) the black kid was not because, shocker, blacks are seen as more violent, less innocent, and more culpable for mistakes and infractions than whites. These decisions are subsconcious and automatic. People do not even think about them when they do it. It's literally instantaneous.

I've already linked to the studies that support that in this very thread.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
You are misinterpreting my posts. I don't think he acted "wrongly". I think he acted unmercifully. I think he judged the situation and the boy unfairly. Something that's unfair can still be legal or justified. I doubt he would have shot a white boy or white girl. While shooting a white boy or girl in that situation would have been justified the cop would have made a lot of automatic decisions and immediate threat assessments. Where the white child would have been given more leeway (perhaps against the cops own safety) the black kid was not because, shocker, blacks are seen as more violent, less innocent, and more culpable for mistakes and infractions than whites. These decisions are subsconcious and automatic. People do not even think about them when they do it. It's literally instantaneous.

I've already linked to the studies that support that in this very thread.
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Are you fucking kidding me? Like, for reals. So shooting a white kid would be justified, but a black kid wouldn't? Man, what the hell.

No kid deserves to be shot at. None. You keep framing your posts like you wish it had been a white child instead.
 
Marty Chinn said:
What? This makes no sense. There's plenty of things you can't do to a police officer that they have the legal authority to do to you. You can't just swap the roles and say look it's a crime and have some sort of reasonable comparable point.
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It could also easily be argued that if a private citizen legally owned a gun and found himself in the same position as the officer, knowing the same things, his fear could be reasonably justified and the decision to shoot legally permissible.
 
JABEE said:
Children are capable of using fire arms. I don't think your macro-analysis of this issue can be applied directly to this case. The police officer shouldn't have to answer for "well, I haven't heard anything on the news lately about children shooting and killing a police officer, so this threat isn't real."

Based on the present evidence, I don't understand how you could think the officer acted wrongly based on the information he had. There are clear-cut rules that police follow in instances of stand-offs.

I can't blame this one cop or place him/her on a stage to be some larger representation of negative police interactions with minority citizens. I think it's a large leap to make.
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People walk around with guns all the time and unless youre a robot with serious slave mentality issues your first instinct after a stranger yells 'put your hands up!' isnt gonna be to put your hands up. Id say most peoples first instinct would be to clutch at what ever they were carrying..
Perhaps every cop that reaches for their gun should be shot on sight. After all he could be a criminal posing as an officer, those seem just as likely as 12yo cop killers.
 
Nephtis said:
Are you fucking kidding me? Like, for reals. So shooting a white kid would be justified, but a black kid wouldn't? Man, what the hell.

No kid deserves to be shot at. None. You keep framing your posts like you wish it had been a white child instead.
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You played the reading comprehension game and you failed. Congrats.
Hypoallergenic Chie said:
You just boiled all of your arguments down to your own personal racism. Congrats.
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You also played and failed. Who's next?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140128405&postcount=272
 
Loofy said:
Again. Switch the people around and dont think for a second it wouldnt be considered a crime.
Click to expand...

So, how should policing work in a civilized society where civilians privately own fire arms? Police officers should be charged with a crime for protecting themselves and society from what they perceive as imminent and deadly threats.

Should police officers not shoot and disable people who they perceive are trying to rob or kill people with real guns? Is it better to wait until innocents die before, you apprehend someone. Would you be okay if that person was your father or mother trying to run their business or your brother just trying to do what he is trained to do in the line of duty?

Do you live in the United States? The proliferation of deadly weapons is absurd. There is no way to turn back time and make it not so. This is law enforcement's reality. When they see someone reaching for a suspicious, real-looking firearm on their waist while approaching a suspect, officers face a real fear of death. It is their job to police. I think most people would agree that enforcing laws and protecting people from abuse is a pretty damn important function of advanced societies.

You can argue on a macro level if these goals are being accomplished by the current system of enforcement, but I don't think disagreeing with the system means that officers responding to a real fear for their lives should just let themselves be gunned down, because current events don't support this specific potential violent event.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
You played the reading comprehension game and you failed. Congrats.

You also played and failed. Who's next?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140128405&postcount=272
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Posting that data doesn't change the fact you just said that in the exact same situation, shooting the kid would have been justified if he had been white.

If you meant to type something else, post it, I'll read it, and then you can judge my reading comprehension. As for now? Fuck off.
 
backslashbunny said:
While I think he's a little too quick to see racism where there's none, and definitely too stubborn to realize that maybe not everything that even involves a black person is automatically racism against that black person, I really doubt he was saying that it's justifiable if it's a white person versus being unjustifiable if it's a black person.

It seems like he's just arguing that if it were a white kid that got shot, there'd be a lot more outrage and sympathy instead of the "it sucks but the kid really shouldn't have reacted how he did."
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Then he worded it really poorly.
I think he's trying his hardest to make this a racism debate.

A kid got shot, and it's really sad. I don't care what color he was, I care why he was shot.
 
Hypoallergenic Chie said:
Posting that data doesn't change the fact you just said that in the exact same situation, shooting the kid would have been justified if he had been white.

If you meant to type something else, post it, I'll read it, and then you can judge my reading comprehension. As for now? Fuck off.
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edit: Because it's late and I assume a combination of me being lazy and not typing my points out for the laymen and the layman being tired cannot understand what Im typing let me clarify.

Throughout this thread I have said that technically the shooting was "justified" but unfair. I have also argued against people who tried to place blame on the 12 year old kid for getting shot. I label it unfair and worth discussion because I highly doubt an officer would have shot a white boy or girl under the same circumstance. Meaning that objectively shooting a black boy, a white boy, a black girl or a white girl would have been justified under these circumstances but the officer, and people in general, afford whites the benefit of the doubt (even when putting themselves at an objective risk) ... i. e mercy.

backslashbunny said:
While I think he's a little too quick to see racism where there's none, and definitely too stubborn to realize that maybe not everything that even involves a black person is automatically racism against that black person, I really doubt he was saying that it's justifiable if it's a white person versus being unjustifiable if it's a black person.

It seems like he's just arguing that if it were a white kid that got shot, there'd be a lot more outrage and sympathy instead of the "it sucks but the kid really shouldn't have reacted how he did."
Click to expand...


Don't like the first paragraph. Like the second -- although it's not totally what I'm implying.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
You are misinterpreting my posts. I don't think he acted "wrongly". I think he acted unmercifully. I think he judged the situation and the boy unfairly. Something that's unfair can still be legal or justified. I doubt he would have shot a white boy or white girl. While shooting a white boy or girl in that situation would have been justified the cop would have made a lot of automatic decisions and immediate threat assessments. Where the white child would have been given more leeway (perhaps against the cops own safety) the black kid was not because, shocker, blacks are seen as more violent, less innocent, and more culpable for mistakes and infractions than whites. These decisions are subsconcious and automatic. People do not even think about them when they do it. It's literally instantaneous.

I've already linked to the studies that support that in this very thread.
Click to expand...

I can understand what you're saying, but I don't know how you can apply these studies to this specific story. I don't know how you can make the leap. I'm not going to say that a white child wouldn't have been give more leeway, because I would have no way of knowing. Statistically speaking, they may have, but you can't apply statistics and causality in this way.

Especially when the logic and description of the scene supports the letter of the law and training. I don't find anything anomalous or alarming about this specific officer responding to this scene, white or black or any ethnicity, with the force described. It's a standard response to someone drawing on you. I was taught as a child that even toy guns are dangerous to walk around with in public.

I just think your leaping to make this story about subconscious prejudices when this specific issue deals with a cut-and-dry, typical response to a civilian pointing a firearm at an officer.
 
Hypoallergenic Chie said:
Then he worded it really poorly.
I think he's trying his hardest to make this a racism debate.

A kid got shot, and it's really sad. I don't care what color he was, I care why he was shot.
Click to expand...

I didn't word it (that) poorly your comprehension just isn't that great.

edit: Jabee and Backslash understood that post. Put your head down in shame.
 
backslashbunny said:
While I think he's a little too quick to see racism where there's none, and definitely too stubborn to realize that maybe not everything that even involves a black person is automatically racism against that black person, I really doubt he was saying that it's justifiable if it's a white person versus being unjustifiable if it's a black person.

It seems like he's just arguing that if it were a white kid that got shot, there'd be a lot more outrage and sympathy instead of the "it sucks but the kid really shouldn't have reacted how he did."
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think the outrage often goes with the race/ethnic background of the person. I remember when a mentally unstable Vietnamese woman/mother was shot by police because she charged them with a common Vietnamese kitchen tool which to someone who isn't familiar with looks like a sharp cleaver when it's a dull peeler. The Vietnamese community was outraged here. Given the percentage of the population in the US is majority Caucasian, it doesn't strike me as odd that you'd hear a bigger outcry if a white kid got shot.
 
backslashbunny said:
Yeah, he did. I also agree with your second sentence.

It IS really sad that a kid was shot. Like I posted earlier, I really wish that the US would finally realize that gun culture, if not responsible for, is being used by the police as justification for shooting everyone, and get over their stupid gun love affair.

I ALSO really wish that US police officers were forced to wear cameras while on duty. That would really help.
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I never said the cop was racist. I don't think the cop was racist. And Im not arguing about racism. I'm arguing about subconscious biases that affect our everyday decisions.
 
JABEE said:
So, how should policing work in a civilized society where civilians privately own fire arms? Police officers should be charged with a crime for protecting themselves and society from what they perceive as imminent and deadly threats.

Should police officers not shoot and disable people who they perceive are trying to rob or kill people with real guns? Is it better to wait until innocents die before, you apprehend someone. Would you be okay if that person was your father or mother trying to run their business or your brother just trying to do what he is trained to do in the line of duty?
Click to expand...
Lets keep it on topic. We're talking about a trigger happy cop who shot a kid and didnt even have anything pointed at him. Yeah it looked like a gun, but as we all know cops can attempt murder defend themselves even when they think its a gun, but is in fact a wallet. That other cop missed and last I heard was at least fired. This cop seems to be getting away scot free.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
Throughout this thread I have said that technically the shooting was "justified" but unfair. I have also argued against people who tried to place blame on the 12 year old kid for getting shot. I label it unfair and worth discussion because I highly doubt an officer would have shot a white boy or girl under the same circumstance. Meaning that objectively shooting a black boy, a white boy, a black girl or a white girl would have been justified under these circumstances but the officer, and people in general, afford whites the benefit of the doubt (even when putting themselves at an objective risk) ... i. e mercy.
Click to expand...

1) Don't try and blame others for your own caustic way of writing.
The post above is good and is far more clear. Your last few were downright racist.

2) It is unfair, but we shouldn't be throwing a fit that a white kid wasn't shot instead. This was a situation where the shooting was justified, regardless of race. Sad, unfair, horrible, and all manner of terrible things, but still justified.
A thread where a shooting isn't justified is the one to bring up racism.
 
Loofy said:
Lets keep it on topic. We're talking about a trigger happy cop who shot a kid and didnt even have anything pointed at him. Yeah it looked like a gun, but as we all know cops can attempt murder defend themselves even when they think its a gun, but is in fact a wallet. That other cop missed and last I heard was at least fired. This cop seems to be getting away scot free.
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Since you like hypothetical scenarios, say the kid had a real gun. He pulls it out, but the cops don't shoot because they figure it's a kid, he's not going to do anything. The kid shoots and kills both officers. Then the kid shoots and kills the person next to him cuz they're a witness. Did the officers do the right thing?
 
Hypoallergenic Chie said:
1) Don't try and blame others for your own caustic way of writing.
The post above is good and is far more clear. Your last few were downright racist.

2) It is unfair, but we shouldn't be throwing a fit that a white kid wasn't shot instead. This was a situation where the shooting was justified, regardless of race. Sad, unfair, horrible, and all manner of terrible things, but still justified.
A thread where a shooting isn't justified is the one to bring up racism.
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If they were racist I will be banned. But just for curiosity's sake what exactly is racist about them? I'll be impressed if you can point to anything in those posts that are racist toward white folk.
freenudemacusers said:
really dude? it's not you it's me?
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What's your end game? Do you just pop in here to get a little snarky with me? I don't mind I just want to know if it's going somewhere.

OT theres nothing wrong with those two posts except for the bit of sass at the end.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
If they were racist I will be banned. But just for curiosity's sake what exactly is racist about them? I'll be impressed if you can point to anything in those posts that are racist toward white folk.

What's your end game? Do you just pop in here to get a little snarky with me? I don't mind I just want to know if it's going somewhere.

OT theres nothing wrong with those two posts except for the bit of sass at the end.
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Where would you like it to go?
 
Marty Chinn said:
Since you like hypothetical scenarios, say the kid had a real gun. He pulls it out, but the cops don't shoot because they figure it's a kid, he's not going to do anything. The kid shoots and kills both officers. Then the kid shoots and kills the person next to him cuz they're a witness. Did the officers do the right thing?
Click to expand...
The kid didnt pull the gun out. Id be fine if thats when they shot him.
 
ICKE said:
Officers should be able to look at all the circumstances before using lethal force. You have a 12 year old fooling around with what looks like a weapon. At that point you can retreat slightly and try to communicate from distance.
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So, so very glad you aren't in law enforcement.
 
backslashbunny said:
He didn't. The only time he supposedly brandished it was before the cops arrived, and that was at other people in the area.

But, really? I'm not going to wait for someone to point the gun at me before I shoot them in self-defense, if I thought that was possible they would shoot me. At that point, once the police officer told him to put his hands up, and he reached for the gun... police are not trained to wait to see what the person/now threat will do. Even if it's a 12 year old. A 12 year old pulling the trigger of a gun will kill you just as dead as a 20 year old pulling the trigger.
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If the officers see it as a threat wouldnt they already have their guns drawn? Yes they should wait until they know what the kids intentions were, why does that even need to be repeated. Reminds me of those retard cops that shot the hostages running away from the criminals.
Like I said its everyones first instinct to clutch what their holding when startled by some stranger yelling at them. He was probably just gonna show them it wasnt real.
 
Loofy said:
If the officers see it as a threat wouldnt they already have their guns drawn? Yes they should wait until they know what the kids intentions were, why does that even need to be repeated.
Like I said its everyones first instinct to clutch what their holding when startled by some stranger yelling at them. He was probably just gonna show them it wasnt real.
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I imagine they had their guns out before he went for the gun in his waistband. Police don't usually quick draw.
 
backslashbunny said:
I don't think that white America would be outraged because "they shot an innocent white kid." White America would be outraged that they shot an innocent kid. When you're white in America, you don't need to stipulate the race because it's assumed you're the norm.
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There was a white kid shot this year by a cop who mistook a Wii controller for a gun.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/...atal-shooting-of-teen-holding-wii-controller/

Not much outrage, though there really should have been. The cop in question had a very poor past record.
 
Jmanunknown said:
Uh yes you can one is a street judge I mean police officer carrying a loaded weapon the other is a kid playing with a bb gun. One person is in the hospital fighting for their life the other gets to go home unharmed. Only one person fired a gun and it was not the kid carrying a bb gun so yes you can blame the street judges sorry I mean police officers.
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If somebody points a gun at you you shoot. It's as simple as that. You don't have time to try to see if it's a fake, if it's real you're dead by then. There's only one person responsible for this death and that's a 12 year old that first refused to put his gun on the ground and then decided to pull on police officers. Could've just jumped from a bridge with the same result, you simply don't do shit like that.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
Throughout this thread I have said that technically the shooting was "justified" but unfair. I have also argued against people who tried to place blame on the 12 year old kid for getting shot. I label it unfair and worth discussion because I highly doubt an officer would have shot a white boy or girl under the same circumstance. Meaning that objectively shooting a black boy, a white boy, a black girl or a white girl would have been justified under these circumstances but the officer, and people in general, afford whites the benefit of the doubt (even when putting themselves at an objective risk) ... i. e mercy.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. I could see it easily going the other way if it were a white girl, but I can't see this cop as a villain given what has been reported. I can't fault him.
 
Loofy said:
If the officers see it as a threat wouldnt they already have their guns drawn? Yes they should wait until they know what the kids intentions were, why does that even need to be repeated. Reminds me of those retard cops that shot the hostages running away from the criminals.
Like I said its everyones first instinct to clutch what their holding when startled by some stranger yelling at them. He was probably just gonna show them it wasnt real.
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A cop follows a suspect who he already knew had a gun in his wasteband, then waits to fire until simple instructions are ignored and the gun is grabbed - this reminds you of cops shooting innocent victims? His intentions were clearly communicated by his action, you can't disregard that just because it's a BB gun in the end.
 
If you reach into your waist for a gun (it looked like a real gun) after cops tell you to freeze or hands up, you get shot...it's really a simple equation.

It's a shame that a kid got shot, but you can't risk it, the cop can't wait to see bullets fly...

You aren't supposed to place you or the cop in that position.
 
PaulloDEC said:
"Toys" resembling real firearms should be illegal, and stuff like this is going to keep happening until they are.
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It's like that in the UK already and that's how I feel. I can't believe they still make toy guns that look real, especially in the US where shootings seem to be a common occurance.
 
StayDead said:
It's like that in the UK already and that's how I feel. I can't believe they still make toy guns that look real, especially in the US where shootings seem to be a common occurance.
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Yeah, they're a really bad idea. I had a Sig Sauer P226 (airsoft) that looked 100% real, and just having it in the house felt like a liability. I ended up disposing of it because even shooting in the privacy of my own garden, I worried about the neighbours freaking out and calling the police.
 
StayDead said:
It's like that in the UK already and that's how I feel. I can't believe they still make toy guns that look real, especially in the US where shootings seem to be a common occurance.
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Airsoft and BB guns aren't considered toys in the US. Most things I can find suggest Ohio requires an orange tip on Airsoft guns and Cleveland even seems to have an outright ban on airguns in public places.
 
Officerrob said:
I'm betting those "real countries" don't have a heavily armed population either.
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Apparently its okay to take fully loaded automatic rifles into family restaurants (They may even run a news report on you so you get to explain your rights!) but a kid with a toy gun? Shoot him!
 
Toy guns should be flourescent blue or pink, this isn't a toy and certainly not at a glance.

Nobody wants a 12 year old to die, but what was he doing with a replica gun in public? People were right to feel threatened, and this is the unfortunate result. Hopefully lessons will be learned, most likely not.
 
GodofWine said:
If you reach into your waist for a gun (it looked like a real gun) after cops tell you to freeze or hands up, you get shot...it's really a simple equation.

It's a shame that a kid got shot, but you can't risk it, the cop can't wait to see bullets fly...

You aren't supposed to place you or the cop in that position.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is kind of how I see it. I get that there seems to be a trigger-happy epidemic out there with all the reports lately, but I honestly can't blame the cops for shooting him if the situation did play out that way.
 
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