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CNN fires Reza Aslan after he tweeted Trump is a piece of shit.

V

Valhelm

contribute something
Really disappointing move from CNN. Vulgarity doesn't preclude somebody from being a good journalist. Hopefully Aslan can find work at a more enlightened media outlet.
 
B

bsp

Member
Pot, meet kettle, etc. (Trump is of course worse and in a position of much higher power, but I'll never feel sorry for Aslan losing an audience).
 
G

Golden_Pigeon

Banned
Forkball said:
You like dogs? Of course you do. You know who also liked dogs?

HITLER
Click to expand...

Hating one of the rare muslim academics to have a public voice in USA is exactly like liking dogs.

You can disagree with him, but to the people hating him, do you hate also Karen Armstrong ? She does more or like the same kind of stuff that Aslan does, without receiving 1 % the hate.


What would be the reason for this ?
DFQ8Sf4.png


Hating a scholar is kind of crazy, especially when this scholar don't spread hate against any kind of group.
 
A

Apt101

Member
He's not wrong but as a serious news organization they had to fire him. Meanwhile over at Fox News their actual journalists can call Obama all kinds of shit and they're fine.
 
Muffdraul

Muffdraul

Member
Golden_Pigeon said:
Hating one of the rare muslim academics to have a public voice in USA is exactly like liking dogs.

You can disagree with him, but to the people hating him, do you hate also Karen Armstrong ? She does more or like the same kind of stuff that Aslan does, without receiving 1 % the hate.


What would be the reason for this ?
DFQ8Sf4.png


Hating a scholar is kind of crazy, especially when this scholar don't spread hate against any kind of group.
Click to expand...

I'm more forgiving of people who defend Islam without really knowing anything about Islamic doctrine. They don't know many facts or details about it, they assume "it's just like any other religion, stop picking on it." Their real focus is only standing up for Muslims, which is a good and noble thing. Their hearts are in the right place.

But someone like Aslan, who actually knows very well what Islam is all about it and pretends there's nothing problematic there... fuck him. He's standing in the way of desperately needed reform. He needs to be called out over and over and over again. As many times as it takes.
 
G

Golden_Pigeon

Banned
Muffdraul said:
I'm more forgiving of people who defend Islam without really knowing anything about Islamic doctrine. They don't know many facts or details about it, they assume "it's just like any other religion, stop picking on it." Their real focus is only standing up for Muslims, which is a good and noble thing. Their hearts are in the right place.

But someone like Aslan, who actually knows very well what Islam is all about it and pretends there's nothing problematic there... fuck him. He's standing in the way of desperately needed reform. He needs to be called out over and over and over again. As many times as it takes.
Click to expand...

You're just a total ignorant of his works, since Aslan consider himself a reformist and he is (from my point of view as a rather, in comparison, mainstream muslim) a pretty radical one. Stop denouncing him and start reading his books.

And also, you're totally incoherent because you wish to remain politically correct, covering (rather poorly) your islamophobia.

Either Islam is rotten at it's core (which your statement "who actually knows very well what Islam is all about" indicate) and nothing can be done except dumping it or it's just misunderstood/corrupted by men and it can (and must) be reformed.
Christianism was reformed by people who were convinced that christianism have been betrayed and it was a perfect religion who needed to be restored out of it's corruption. This is the premise of every religious reformism. Not "the religion is evil, let's reform it".

You cannot mix the two proposition. If something is bad in itself, it cannot be reformed. So you're accusing Aslan to do something impossible: denounce Islam in itself AND reform it.

It's some real Ayyan Hirsi Ali level of incoherence you got there.
 
Muffdraul

Muffdraul

Member
Golden_Pigeon said:
You're just a total ignorant of his work, since Aslan consider himself a reformist and he is (from my point of view as a rather, in comparison, mainstream muslim) a pretty radical one. Stop denouncing him and start reading his books.

And also, you're totally incoherent because you wish to remain politically correct, covering (rather poorly) your islamophobia.

Either Islam is rotten at it's core (which your statement "who actually knows very well what Islam is all about" indicate) and nothing can be done except dump it or it's just misunderstood/corrupted by men and it can (and must) be reformed.
Christianism was reformed by people who were convinced that christianism have been betrayed and it was a perfect religion who needed to be restored out of it's corruption. This is the premise of every religious reformism. Not "the religion is evil, let's reform it".

You cannot mix the two proposition. If something is bad in itself, it cannot be reformed. So you're accusing Aslan to do something impossible: denounce Islam in itself AND reform it.

It's some real Ayyan Hirsi Ali level of incoherence you got there.
Click to expand...

If Islam can be reformed (and I think it can be) it will take open dialogue and willingness to listen. Not shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBIA! RACIST! BIGOT!" the instant anybody opens their mouth to say anything critical of the doctrine.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
Golden_Pigeon said:
You're just a total ignorant of his work, since Aslan consider himself a reformist and he is (from my point of view as a rather, in comparison, mainstream muslim) a pretty radical one. Stop denouncing him and start reading his books.

And also, you're totally incoherent because you wish to remain politically correct, covering (rather poorly) your islamophobia.

Either Islam is rotten at it's core ("who actually knows very well what Islam is all about") and nothing can be done except dump it or it's just misunderstood/corrupted by men and it can (and must) be reformed.
Christianism was reformed by people who were convinced that christianism have been betrayed and it was a perfect religion who needed to be restored out of it's corruption. This is the premise of every religious reformism. Not "the religion is evil, let's reform it".

You cannot mix the two proposition. If something is bad in itself, it cannot be reformed. So you're accusing Aslan to do something impossible: denounce Islam in itself AND reform it.

It's some real Ayyan Hirsi Ali level of incoherence you got there.
Click to expand...

Don't expect much nuance from Muffdraul when he makes such posts about Islam and muslims on this board, not willing to separate the modern Wahabbism of islam that Reza Aslan has always railed against to all the other kinds of muslim interpretations and how he's always been banging on about Islamic reformation.
Muffdraul said:
When I said "As with all religions, thankfully the majority of the followers cherry pick" I was referring to Muslims. Islam falls under "all religions." Muslims cherry pick just like everyone else, that's why only approx. 25% hold beliefs that we in the West generally consider problematic. e.g. Death for apostasy, homosexuality, adultery. Amputation for theft. All non-Muslims must either convert, submit as dhimmis and pay jizya, or die. Muhammad was the perfect example of a man and he is to be emulated as much as possible. That doesn't sound so bad, until you read the Sira and find out what Muhammad actually did, according to the book.
Click to expand...

While Reza Aslan makes public appeals to all muslims to be supportive of marginalised communities, such as the LGBT. Here's an example from an open letter co-written with Hasan Minhaj:
http://religiondispatches.org/an-open-letter-to-american-muslims-on-same-sex-marriage/
But here’s the thing. When you are an underrepresented minority—whether Muslim, African American, female, etc.—democracy is an all or nothing business. You fight for everyone’s rights (and the operative word here is “fight”), or you get none for yourself. Democracy isn’t a buffet. You can’t pick and choose which civil liberties apply to which people. Either we are all equal, or the whole thing is just a sham.

We Muslims are already a deeply marginalized people in mainstream American culture. More than half of Americans have a negative view of us. One-third of Americans—that’s more than one hundred million people—want us to carry special IDs so that they can easily identify us as Muslim. We shouldn’t be perpetuating our marginalization by marginalizing others. Rejecting the right to same-sex marriage, but then expecting empathy for our community’s struggle, is hypocritical.

Think about the way people look at your hijabi sister or your bearded brother when they walk through the mall. Think about the grumbles and stares you get at airports. Think about the vitriol that’s spewed on you by your own elected political leaders. That’s how your LGBT brothers and sisters feel every day of their lives. Are you okay with that?

We don’t know about you, but our faith teaches us to care for the weak and the marginalized, the poor and dispossessed, those who are trampled underfoot, those who are persecuted—no matter who they are, no matter what they believe, no matter who they choose to love.​
...
You may think LGBT rights is a new conversation, something that’s only recently come into contact with modern Islamic thought, but trust us, it’s not. Challenging the status quo for the betterment of society is one of the very foundations on which Islam was built.

No one is asking you to change your beliefs. If you feel your faith tells you that homosexuality is haram, fine. We disagree with your interpretation, but you’re entitled to it.

Ain’t America grand?

But if you can’t find it in your heart to accept gays on principle, think about the country you want to live in. After all, the constitution that just ensured the rights of LGBT communities is the same constitution that protects our mosques and community centers, that keeps our Islamic schools open, that allows us equal rights and privileges in the face of overwhelming hatred and bigotry from our fellow Americans. You can’t celebrate one without the other.

That’s why it’s not enough to simply “tolerate” the Supreme Court decision. Tolerating another community only stirs up concealed fear toward the marginalized and apathy toward the political process. As minorities we don’t have the luxury to have either of those emotions. We have to do more than tolerate. We have to embrace. We have to fight for the right of others to live their lives as freely as we want to live ours.

Bottom line is this: standing up for marginalized communities, even when you disagree with them, is not just the right thing to do, it’s the Muslim thing to do. Remember that whole God is merciful and compassionate thing? That extends to all people, not just those who are straight.​
 
G

Golden_Pigeon

Banned
Muffdraul said:
If Islam can be reformed (and I think it can be) it will take open dialogue and willingness to listen. Not shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBIA! RACIST! BIGOT!" the instant anybody opens their mouth to say anything critical of the doctrine.
Click to expand...

So i suggest you to read this book:

618WRPq30OL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Especially the part about fanaticism, political islam and the future of Islam, and then tell me that Aslan is just a muslim apologist who refuse to see the current issues.
And also, he place himself above every doctrinal school (there is no such thing as the Doctrine of Islam) and have a very free interpretation of the practices and beliefs of Islam. I don't adhere with his interpretations, but he is not saying that the muslim world follow his views. He even said that if Isis consider itself muslims, they are muslims. (i won't say that for instance, but it's coherent with sociology of religions). This is not in contradiction with him saying that ISIS actions are in direct contradiction with Islam teachings, since he is speaking from his own faith and what he understand of the faith. I don't believe he would claim otherwise, like to be a kind of Islamic pope who can define what is Islam for everyone.

He is pretty outspoken about the current issues in the muslim world. Just read his book with an open mind and then decide if he is shying away from reformism and criticism of the actual practices of muslims and how Islam is currently teached.
 
E

Erevador

Member
J

Jumeira

Banned
Muffdraul said:
I'm more forgiving of people who defend Islam without really knowing anything about Islamic doctrine. They don't know many facts or details about it, they assume "it's just like any other religion, stop picking on it." Their real focus is only standing up for Muslims, which is a good and noble thing. Their hearts are in the right place.

But someone like Aslan, who actually knows very well what Islam is all about it and pretends there's nothing problematic there... fuck him. He's standing in the way of desperately needed reform. He needs to be called out over and over and over again. As many times as it takes.
Click to expand...

1. Not true, he, like all well adjusted muslims, fully understand scripture through scholarly interpretation, they recognise the dangers of irrational thinkers in the community who bypass reason, but can obviously separate them (unlike non muslims) from the rest. It wouldnt be practiced if it was inherently bad, you can be a sincere devout muslim as we have seen many times.

2. Continue do so but in the eyes of muslims you come across as wack jobs with obvious ignorance on the subject. Aslan has credibility and its people like him who help muslims intellectually update ideas of faith.

Muffdraul said:
If Islam can be reformed (and I think it can be) it will take open dialogue and willingness to listen. Not shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBIA! RACIST! BIGOT!" the instant anybody opens their mouth to say anything critical of the doctrine.
Click to expand...

When criticisms are obvious distortions or the glossing over culture & history and examples then yes you are a bigot/islamaphobe

Golden_Pigeon said:
So i suggest you to read this book:

618WRPq30OL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks i'll order this tonight.
 
Larogue

Larogue

Member
Shame on you CNN.

I love this guy because he is part of the creative team behind The Leftovers (My all time favourite TV drama).
 
TheLaughingStock

TheLaughingStock

Member
Stumpokapow said:
I actually agree that commentators shouldn't express themselves like this. I think professional people should conduct themselves respectfully and with dignity in public.

But it seems totally untenable to simultaneously argue that the way Trump speaks about others is acceptable and that the way others speak about Trump is unacceptable.

And enforcing it against a guy who gets paid to talk on CNN and not against a guy who gets paid to use the nuclear codes seems arbitrary and capricious.
Click to expand...

Regardless of how they act or what they say, CNN is a biased news outlet that is not fooling anyone. And him acting differently won't elevate them above the competition.

So why not express how you really feel? If you think Trump is harming people, an embarrassment and is a POS, then why should you hide that on Twitter? Using politically correct language while some people feel they are losing big under Trump and may die as the result of certain decisions isn't being respectful to the severity of their circumstances. It implies as a CNN employee your top priorities aren't dignity and truth. But of course anyone with common sense already knows why you're there exploiting what's going on for profit.
 
A

Artdayne

Member
Sarah Haider and Muhammad Syed both had some very pointed criticisms on Resa Aslan and think he's intentionally misleading and dishonest.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...a-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/

The idea that FGM is concentrated solely in Africa is a huge misconception and bandied about by apologists with citations of an Africa-focused UNICEF report which showed high rates of FGM in African countries. Apologists have taken that to mean that it is *only* Africa that has an FGM problem — even though FGM rates have not been studied in most of the Middle East or South and East Asia. Is it an academically sound practice to take a lack of study as proof of the non-existence of the practice? Especially when there is record of FGM common in Asian countries like Indonesia (study) and Malaysia? It is also present in the Bohra Muslim community in India and Pakistan, as well as in the Kurdish community in Iraq — Are they to be discounted as “African problems” as well?

We do not yet have the large scale data to confirm the rates of FGM around the world, but we can safely assume that it is quite a bit more than just an “African problem.” It is very likely that FGM *did* originate in the Middle East or North Africa, but its extensive prevalence in Muslim-majority countries should give us pause. We are not attempting to paint FGM as only an Islamic problem but rather that Islam does bear some responsibility for its spread beyond the Middle East-North Africa region and for its modern prevalence.

So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice. Of the four major schools of thought in Sunni Islam, two mandate FGM while two merely recommend it. Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.
 
E

Erevador

Member
Artdayne said:
Sarah Haider and Muhammad Syed both had some very pointed criticisms on Resa Aslan and think he's intentionally misleading and dishonest.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...a-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/

The idea that FGM is concentrated solely in Africa is a huge misconception and bandied about by apologists with citations of an Africa-focused UNICEF report which showed high rates of FGM in African countries. Apologists have taken that to mean that it is *only* Africa that has an FGM problem — even though FGM rates have not been studied in most of the Middle East or South and East Asia. Is it an academically sound practice to take a lack of study as proof of the non-existence of the practice? Especially when there is record of FGM common in Asian countries like Indonesia (study) and Malaysia? It is also present in the Bohra Muslim community in India and Pakistan, as well as in the Kurdish community in Iraq — Are they to be discounted as “African problems” as well?

We do not yet have the large scale data to confirm the rates of FGM around the world, but we can safely assume that it is quite a bit more than just an “African problem.” It is very likely that FGM *did* originate in the Middle East or North Africa, but its extensive prevalence in Muslim-majority countries should give us pause. We are not attempting to paint FGM as only an Islamic problem but rather that Islam does bear some responsibility for its spread beyond the Middle East-North Africa region and for its modern prevalence.

So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice. Of the four major schools of thought in Sunni Islam, two mandate FGM while two merely recommend it. Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting this. That piece is a great compliment to the David Pakman video I posted above.
 
Kibbles

Kibbles

Member
Fuck CNN, they are a piece of shit network. Keep employing those shitheads who spout crazy Trump nonsense, no better than Fox as much as they think they are.
 
E

emag

Member
Hopefully Reza lands on his feet. His arguments may not always have captured every nuance of a situation, but compared to anyone else on news/talk shows (certainly any of Fox's talking heads or Bill Maher & co.), he was by far the most accurate and responsible.
 
R

rjinaz

Member
Free Speech doh, Free Speech!

He crossed a professional line and I'm sure he knew it. I don't think CNN should have fired him for speaking the damn truth especially when they entertain slime like Lord daily, but, I'm not sure they had many other options. Here's hoping he finds work.
 
Lamel

Lamel

Banned
Artdayne said:
Sarah Haider and Muhammad Syed both had some very pointed criticisms on Resa Aslan and think he's intentionally misleading and dishonest.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...a-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/

The idea that FGM is concentrated solely in Africa is a huge misconception and bandied about by apologists with citations of an Africa-focused UNICEF report which showed high rates of FGM in African countries. Apologists have taken that to mean that it is *only* Africa that has an FGM problem — even though FGM rates have not been studied in most of the Middle East or South and East Asia. Is it an academically sound practice to take a lack of study as proof of the non-existence of the practice? Especially when there is record of FGM common in Asian countries like Indonesia (study) and Malaysia? It is also present in the Bohra Muslim community in India and Pakistan, as well as in the Kurdish community in Iraq — Are they to be discounted as “African problems” as well?

We do not yet have the large scale data to confirm the rates of FGM around the world, but we can safely assume that it is quite a bit more than just an “African problem.” It is very likely that FGM *did* originate in the Middle East or North Africa, but its extensive prevalence in Muslim-majority countries should give us pause. We are not attempting to paint FGM as only an Islamic problem but rather that Islam does bear some responsibility for its spread beyond the Middle East-North Africa region and for its modern prevalence.

So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice. Of the four major schools of thought in Sunni Islam, two mandate FGM while two merely recommend it. Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.
Click to expand...

It's not necessarily academically sound, but neither is subsequently assuming that it is "quite a bit more than an African problem" when you don't have enough data to back up your claim. The extent of the issue can only be based on definitive data. Claiming that some groups in some countries practice this does not necessarily give significance to the problem to the scale that it exists in Africa. For example, there are ~1 million Bohra Muslims, out of a total of 350-400 million total muslims in India/Pakistan.

That being said, this practice is universally disgusting. In my experience, every muslim I have spoken to about it (in the west) either didn't know it existed or condemned it. However, in countries where it is more accepted, the populace needs to be educated to phase out this nonsense.
 
P

polyh3dron

Banned
I guess Reza's religious tolerance doesn't apply to the religion of American Conservatism.

This guy made an entire episode of excuses for the cult with a modern slave work force known as the Church of Scientology, but American Right-Wing Dogma is where he draws the line.

Okay.
 
A

Anion

Member
Damn that's sad

But holly shit, I didn't know Aslan has venement haters here. There is no way people here are actually that dismissive of him...
 
J

JP_

Banned
Erevador said:
Thank you for posting this. That piece is a great compliment to the David Pakman video I posted above.
Click to expand...
Pakman is a joke. And that article seems to ignore Aslan's core argument. Aslan never said Muslims don't practice it or spread it beyond Africa. The point isn't that Islam has no connection to FGM, his point was that FGM originated as a regional tradition that predates Islam, which explains why it also happens in some Christian majority countries like Ethiopia (74% prevalence of FGM, only 33% of the country is Muslim). Religions often adopt regional traditions and spread them.
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
JP_ said:
Pakman is a joke. And that article seems to ignore Aslan's core argument. Aslan never said Muslims don't practice it or spread it beyond Africa. The point isn't that Islam has no connection to FGM, his point was that FGM originated as a regional tradition that predates Islam, which explains why it also happens in some Christian majority countries like Ethiopia (74% prevalence of FGM, only 33% of the country is Muslim). Religions often adopt regional traditions and spread them.
Click to expand...

Why is Pakman a joke? Did he falsify Aslan's credentials claims?
 
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