slightconfuse
Banned
Speaking if crime and Ennis
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COMICS! |OT| August 2014. Infinite universes, or just fifty-two? Thanos.
- Thread starter Spike Spiegel
- Start date
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No, it's after. It's basically a reboot that takes place in the real world instead of the Marvel Universe.
The Russian stuff was previous. You referring to this?
Yep that's the fight.
Doesn't
Frank die at the end of MAX
Coriolanus
Banned
Just try to avoid issues where he's wearing white gloves and boots.
Current run is pretty meh so far.
MAX v2.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
That fight takes place in Welcome Back, Frank. It's a much more lighthearted take on The Punisher. It's one of my favorites.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Noted
...
I'm out.
Pls come back. D: I'll rectify this mistake next pay check.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
Me neither. I've never had much of an interest in the character honestly.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
This is Pre-MAX. Ennis did the Marvel series, then Marvel let him do a version that was like, Rated R and divorced from the MU. It was far superior.
Do you really want to know the answer to the spoilered question?
Here's the answer (HUGE SPOILERS FOR PUNISHER MAX):
He does finally die at the of Jason Aaron's run in the second to last issue. The final issue is an epilogue of sorts.
Coriolanus
Banned
He punked the avengers so hard.
Loved the bits with Thor.
Loved the bits with Thor.
I really enjoyed both runs. It's apples and oranges really. They're so different from each other, it's kind of unfair to compare them. It's really just "do you prefer lighthearted comicy comics or serious comics." I think they're both great in their own way.
I actually like knowing that's what happens. It makes the journey for these stories much more interesting.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Here's my go-to guide for Punisher of the last decade:
If you like black comedy, read PUNISHER (MARVEL KNIGHTS SERIES) BY GARTH ENNIS. This includes WELCOME BACK, FRANK (1-12), PUNISHER (1-30something), PUNISHER: WAR ZONE (1-6 miniseries).
If you like bleak crime drama that will rot your soul and make you weep for humanity, read PUNISHER MAX BY GARTH ENNIS 1-60, PUNISHERMAX 1-22 BY JASON AARON, PUNISHER: THE TYGER ONE-SHOT, PUNISHER: THE CELL ONE-SHOT, PUNISHER: BORN (1-4), NICK FURY: MY WAR GONE BY (1-10), ALL BY GARTH ENNIS.
If you like shitty shit on a shitty stick, read PUNISHER: WAR JOURNAL BY MATT FRACTION (Around... 2007/8, I think?) - Civil War era.
If you like Weird, Zany, off-the-wall stuff and are open to something non-traditional, read PUNISHER (1-16), FRANKENCASTLE (retitled, 17-21), AND PUNISHER: IN THE BLOOD (1-5) BY RICK REMENDER.
If you like dark crime dramas with a military bent set in a superhero world, read PUNISHER (1-16) AND PUNISHER: WAR ZONE (1-5) BY GREG RUCKA
If you like a lighter (it's all relative) action/adventure/military story in the vein of Justified, read PUNISHER (CURRENT ONGOING) BY NATHAN EDMONDSON).
If you like black comedy, read PUNISHER (MARVEL KNIGHTS SERIES) BY GARTH ENNIS. This includes WELCOME BACK, FRANK (1-12), PUNISHER (1-30something), PUNISHER: WAR ZONE (1-6 miniseries).
If you like bleak crime drama that will rot your soul and make you weep for humanity, read PUNISHER MAX BY GARTH ENNIS 1-60, PUNISHERMAX 1-22 BY JASON AARON, PUNISHER: THE TYGER ONE-SHOT, PUNISHER: THE CELL ONE-SHOT, PUNISHER: BORN (1-4), NICK FURY: MY WAR GONE BY (1-10), ALL BY GARTH ENNIS.
If you like shitty shit on a shitty stick, read PUNISHER: WAR JOURNAL BY MATT FRACTION (Around... 2007/8, I think?) - Civil War era.
If you like Weird, Zany, off-the-wall stuff and are open to something non-traditional, read PUNISHER (1-16), FRANKENCASTLE (retitled, 17-21), AND PUNISHER: IN THE BLOOD (1-5) BY RICK REMENDER.
If you like dark crime dramas with a military bent set in a superhero world, read PUNISHER (1-16) AND PUNISHER: WAR ZONE (1-5) BY GREG RUCKA
If you like a lighter (it's all relative) action/adventure/military story in the vein of Justified, read PUNISHER (CURRENT ONGOING) BY NATHAN EDMONDSON).
Coriolanus
Banned
That's a pretty good list. I'd put Max V1 61-70 in the shitty shit part, add 71-74 to the weird zanny, but yeah, that's spot-on.
Chinner tell us your top punisher recommendationsMy punisher collection is getting a little silly nowlol
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I think you can also categorize it by how heroic Castle is in a given series:
MOST HEROIC
Nathan Edmondson (Very much the most heroic incarnation of Castle in a long-time)
Rick Remender (Dies, gets turned into a Frankenstein monster, still has the heart of a hero)
Greg Rucka (Taciturn man of mystery who does more good than bad... maybe)
Garth Ennis (Non-MAX) (Only goes after criminals because he hates them. Avoids collateral damage)
Garth Ennis/Jason Aaron (MAX) (Darkest incarnation of Castle. Possibly kill-junkie, heavily suffers from PTSD. In an awful world, he is capable of heroism - avoids collateral damage)
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Matt Fraction (Selfish douchenozzle git)
LEAST HEROIC
As you can see, we're going from most to least.
MOST HEROIC
Nathan Edmondson (Very much the most heroic incarnation of Castle in a long-time)
Rick Remender (Dies, gets turned into a Frankenstein monster, still has the heart of a hero)
Greg Rucka (Taciturn man of mystery who does more good than bad... maybe)
Garth Ennis (Non-MAX) (Only goes after criminals because he hates them. Avoids collateral damage)
Garth Ennis/Jason Aaron (MAX) (Darkest incarnation of Castle. Possibly kill-junkie, heavily suffers from PTSD. In an awful world, he is capable of heroism - avoids collateral damage)
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Matt Fraction (Selfish douchenozzle git)
LEAST HEROIC
As you can see, we're going from most to least.
He also had all the stuff he did in with King Mob in Invisibles because he thought to would affect reality in his favor. Warlocks, huh.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Man, I never saw it that way but Edmunson's Punisher is TOTALLY Justified.
Tizoc
Member
Frank Castle isn't a hero, he was never written as such.
He's a broken, traumatized, crazy old guy who kills people because it is the only thing he has left and can do with his miserable existence.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
oh my god
Tizoc
Member
He's been written as such plenty of times, it's why Edmonsons and Remenders run are so good. He doesn't have to be a miserable fucker all the time.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I said most heroic, not hero. He has heroic qualities in most of his incarnations. I like to see him as a good man broken and warped by the nightmarish events of his life.
Though what you said fits MAX to a T.
Punisher wishes he was this cool
That Volvo 242.
Lol I love seeing people bug out when people call Frank Castle a hero. I do consider him a superhero in the same sense that I consider Walter White one. They have super luck and determination and training on their side.
Also, let's not forget: if Frank Castle isn't a Superhero then neither is Batman. He has indirectly caused the deaths of who knows how many innocents because of some twisted sense of morality which is actually just his own selfishness.
I applaud Frank for taking out the garbage.
Yanick Paquette's been going in pretty hard on that article with the corrections on Facebook.
Now he's posting art history battles.
I mostly consider Frank Castle a superhero because if being on the receiving end of that many bullets (and knives and whatnot) and not dying isn't a superpower, I don't know what is.
Reminds me of what Wolverine says in Ms. Marvel about the only power worth a damn is the ability to get back up from whatever knocked you down in the first place.
Exactly. Just because he isn't running around in a suit doesn't mean he isn't a hero. I am willing to bet that there are people in these universes that would identify better with Punisher than say...Captain America, because he's the one normal guy who decided to fight back.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I think most versions of Frank are fundamentally heroes. Some people might argue against it, but he's a legitimate hero. In fact, I say he's more of a hero than most of the so called "superheroes" of the 616 that probably create as many problems as they solve. There's a reason Frank doesn't have a recurring rogue's gallery to haunt him and destroy his home to strike back against him.
Frank Castle is more heroic because he's willing to destroy himself, his humanity, and his own pre-existing moral codes to save people and stop the bad guys. Full stop.
That said, there are a bunch of different interpretations of Frank:
The Ennis and Aaron versions explicitly say that Frank is a kill junkie, and we see how all this developed via BORN, CELL, and THE TYGER. That said, he's incredibly heroic, willing to sacrifice himself to save innocents at every turn and the villains he takes on are the worst that humanity has to offer. I hope no one tells me that Frank shouldn't have killed:
Nicky Cavella and co
Zakharov
Rawlins
Barracuda
The Cabal of Generals
Kingpin and his wife
Bullseye
Elektra (sorta)
The Mongolian
The Irish criminals in the second arc
The CIA spooks in the first one/Micro
The SLAVERS, Fuck those guys
The Widows
Zakharov
Rawlins
Barracuda
The Cabal of Generals
Kingpin and his wife
Bullseye
Elektra (sorta)
The Mongolian
The Irish criminals in the second arc
The CIA spooks in the first one/Micro
The SLAVERS, Fuck those guys
The Widows
Hell, if Frank was allowed to operate and take out other supervillains, the world would be a much safer place.
That said, I think the Remender and Edmondson versions are the most explicitly heroic versions of the character. It's clear that they don't kill for the sake of killing but to protect people and really society at large, while the Ennis/Aaron versions of the character is much more morally complex and possible insane (for sure near the end of the Aaron run, Frank's sanity is hanging on by tethers).
Rucka's version is a force of nature, not really a character, so you never get a glimpse into his mind. Fraction's version, I'd argue, is a straight up fucking villain.
I think Edmondson's version of Frank is my personal favorite at the moment because I can identify with him the most. He seems the most normal and well-adjusted Frank in a long time. Capable of forming connections to other people, willing to occasionally crack a smile, and actually seems like he's enjoying his mission, because he has a purpose in life, versus the Ennis version who's cutting away at himself as a form of self-punishment, heroism, and murder gratification.
Angelus Errare
Banned
So DC...when I am going to get my monthly exploits of all the Earth 2 heroes mang? D:
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Frank Castle is a total monster that just so happens to point his gun at bigger monsters
Aren't they doing an Earth 2 weekly?
Tizoc
Member
On that I'll agree, which is one of the reasons I like how he is written in the current series.
Ah well even then...nah I still don't see anything heroic about the stuff he does.
This guy gets it.
Rucka's run ended with War Game with the run you are reading continuing straight after. I'd recommenced reading Ruckas as one of the key characters in it should be appearing in Edmonsons at some point. It should be fun when she finally makes an appearance.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
A valid interpretation, but that's definitely not all versions of Frank.
But when a writer pulls that version off, it's fascinating.
Then there was the time Frank actually became a monster and went after a genocidal German maniac in a steampunk machine.
It was awesome.
Yes, that was Rucka's run. It was canceled at 17, then got a five issue miniseries where Frank took on the Avengers. It was great. Vulture fucked up his eye early on and it took a long time to heal.
After it was canceled, it was rebooted with Edmondson's NOW title.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
The current version of Punisher hunts down and destroys the threats that superheroes don't bother with but that regular law enforcement can't handle. Though I think this Frank feels like that the superheroes have basically left the people on the streets to their own devices and are now clashing in the sky, leaving only a man like him to take on what others can't or won't.
He's... doing an okay job of it.
The Remender run where he got turned into Frankenstein went after the genocidal steampunk maniac so he could save all the monsters that the world had forsaken and that run started out with him trying to kill Norman Osborn cause he knew it was all a fakeout.
I find it hilarious how the newest version of Frank actually wears a mask sometimes.
Can't wait!
flaxknuckles
Member
If Punisher was let loose in Gotham he would clear up those streets in no time.
Tizoc
Member
The current version of Punisher hunts down and destroys the threats that superheroes don't bother with but that regular law enforcement can't handle. Though I think this Frank feels like that the superheroes have basically left the people on the streets to their own devices and are now clashing in the sky, leaving only a man like him to take on what others can't or won't.
He's... doing an okay job of it.
The Remender run where he got turned into Frankenstein went after the genocidal steampunk maniac so he could save all the monsters that the world had forsaken and that run started out with him trying to kill Norman Osborn cause he knew it was all a fakeout.
I find it hilarious how the newest version of Frank actually wears a mask sometimes.
Can't wait!
Read the line exactly before my reply to yours
BuddyJoeHooker
Member
What!? Edmanson's Punisher is totally GTA V
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Man, I hate that shit. Daredevil is the worst. He fucks Elektra, Black Widow, Typhoid Mary (I think?), all murderous people, but when Frank comes along, it's all "OH YOU'RE A MURDERER CATHOLIC GUILT I MUST STOP YOU!"
Fuck you, Murdoch.
To Spidey's credit, in Rucka's run, he convinced the Avengers to take Frank down and then Frank made them all his bitch.
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