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COMICS! |OT| March 2013. Pinching Dr. Banner? Bad idea; Hulk pinches you back.

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Jedeye Sniv

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Dark Sun Cetra said:
I can understand enjoying seeing character pushed. But going so far as to call it genius is a bit much. I think coming out of the hell that was 90's comics may have helped Morrison a lot more than his writing by simply being better than almost 100% of what came before it.

I'll just have to flatly disagree with you on the shot at Tomasi's Batman and Robin. Over that arc Batman/Bruce Wayne and Damian humanize the hell out of each other. All three characters grow in meaningful ways. Morrison's portrayal of Damian had it's moments. "I'm now a vegetarian" was classic. Loved it. But I don't feel like he ever really grew out of just being an angry child under Morrison. Tomasi kept his edge while bringing some humanity to that kid, which he needed and in doing so re humanized Batman to a large degree. To write that off a B Comic schlock is a mistake IMO. I honestly feel that way Damian's death was handled was kind of insulting. Seemed overly brutal for the sake of being brutal. The awful art didn't help it much either.

But hey, who gives a shit so long as we enjoy what we're reading. Keep buyin' so they can keep making em I say. After all, they're just comics.
Click to expand...

(keep in mind this isn't an attack, I just like discussing stories)

To me, the Tomasi B&R run fell super flat. To start with, I found the 'Damian as psychopath' subplot was both obvious and a bit dull, and then the opening Nobody arc was a let down. It was full of retcons and really on-the-nose story beats, I saw exactly where it was going very early and it took a long time to get to the inevitable climax. It's not like it was Tony Daniel bad, but it definitely wasn't top tier stuff. That said, I really liked how Tomasi would have the gang hanging out together, those bits reminded me of the best of Chuck Dixon's work.

I really disagree that Morrison's Damian didn't show development, it's really clear how much he changes over the series. Look at how he grows from Batman and Son (I WANT A LAPTOP!!) to the end of B&R 16 (I won't fail you, father). Look how he goes from flat out disrespecting Dick to praising him in their last appearance. Towards the end of Inc, he goes from being a violent show-off to someone who genuinely cares about doing the right thing and having Bruce respect him for it. Damian reads sullen with other writers, but he's not, he's aristocratic. His curt, abrupt manner isn't him being rude, it's him trying to be a grownup like his dad. His character arc has been incredibly strong in Morrison's run, he hasn't been that angry snotty little kid since the middle of Batman and Robin. He became respectful as the others earned his respect.

And Damian's death was indeed incredibly brutal. Why? I think it was to show explicitly that this is what happens to a child in this environment. When he gets hit with an arrow and screams, I heard a ten year old scream and it was emotionally wrenching. This wasn't superman vs Doomsday or Batman vs Bane, it was a little kid getting horribly murdered. It was meant to be horrific and brutal and wrong, otherwise it could have read as a death for death's sake. I felt it was making two points - it showed how brave (and perhaps foolish) Damian was for going up against the heretic, and it showed how callus both Talia and Bruce were for dragging him into this fight.

If it was any other Robin in this fight it would not have had the same impact or meaning, it would have been Superheo Death #3986522. But instead it was tragic and unjust and wrong. And that makes for a good story in my book.

I'm really interested to see what Morrison does next in the story, he's written himself fairly deep into a hole now. How do you redeem this? How does this story have a happy ending? (I fully believe there will be one, he hardly ever writes bleak endings)
 
C

Cetra

Member
I hadn't thought of Damian's death that way, and that's a pretty enlightening lens on it if I do say so myself. You're right, he has kind of written himself into a corner. I just hope they don't go "Batman goes nuts and the family has to save him from himself! OMG" route. I'd really like to see Bruce dig himself out of this. (I'm already annoyed as hell that they're positioning whats her face, Harper Lee or whatever, as a new side kick for Batman.)

I dunno, it's like the two of us are reading two completely different books where Batman and Robin is concerned. I will admit father/son stories always effect pretty pretty strongly anyway. (Mom and Pop divorced while I was still young and naive enough to still see him as a superhero.) So that could have a lot to do with my read of Tomasi's Batman and Robin. Since it focused so heavily on the two of them learning to really care for each other in a family capacity.

B&R Issue 18 Spoiler:
Issue 17 & 18 in particular were stellar. 18 was a tearjerker, Bruce emotionally breaking down was gutwrenching. Really a testament to Gleason as a visual storyteller as there barely any text in the issue itself.

I totally plan on reading all of this again. I'll keep your points in mind this time and see if they effect it. But I won't be writing off Batman and Robin anytime soon. :lol
 
Jedeye Sniv

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Dark Sun Cetra said:
I hadn't thought of Damian's death that way, and that's a pretty enlightening lens on it if I do say so myself. You're right, he has kind of written himself into a corner. I just hope they don't go "Batman goes nuts and the family has to save him from himself! OMG" route. I'd really like to see Bruce dig himself out of this. (I'm already annoyed as hell that they're positioning whats her face, Harper Lee or whatever, as a new side kick for Batman.)

I dunno, it's like the two of us are reading two completely different books where Batman and Robin is concerned. I will admit father/son stories always effect pretty pretty strongly anyway. (Mom and Pop divorced while I was still young and naive enough to still see him as a superhero.) So that could have a lot to do with my read of Tomasi's Batman and Robin. Since it focused so heavily on the two of them learning to really care for each other in a family capacity.

B&R Issue 18 Spoiler:
Issue 17 & 18 in particular were stellar. 18 was a tearjerker, Bruce emotionally breaking down was gutwrenching. Really a testament to Gleason as a visual storyteller as there barely any text in the issue itself.

I totally plan on reading all of this again. I'll keep your points in mind this time and see if they effect it. But I won't be writing off Batman and Robin anytime soon. :lol
Click to expand...

Totally get you on Batman + daddy issues. I grew up without a dad and I kinda think I'm so into Batman (and Robin) as a consequence. Batman was a good male role model. Mostly. lol

I 100% don't think that Morrison will do a depressing ending (that's for all the tie-ins this month to wallow in). In a recent interview you could tell that he has big plans for the ending. It's very much in his MO to drag a character down as absolutely far as they go before bringing them back better than ever (see The Filth, or Batman RIP or pretty much all his work). I have faith that something good, or at least sweet, will come out of the ending. I think it will have a lot to do with Bruce and talia talking it out. The story is a big divorce metaphor anyway, they need to go to marriage counselling or something :)

I think that the family aspects of Tomasi's run were certainly the strongest (much as they were on his Nightwing run) but it's the A-story that I found a bit bland. I would honestly have been happier if it was just Bruce and Damian walking the dog and having a chat. I dropped the book during that awful Terminus (or whatever he was called) story. The B-plot with Damian challenging the other Robins was wonderful but again the A-plot was just dumb comics stuff. Sometimes I wish comics didn't have to pander to the imaginary 12-year-olds reading and have the balls to let interpersonal stuff lead some books.
 
G

GrandHarrier

Member
If Batman Incorporated ends with anything less than Ras creeping out of the shadows behind Talia, whispering "You have failed me, my daughter," and proceeding to murder/lazarus pit her over and over, I will be disappointed.
 
O

Owzers

Member
I want Damian back Xo

Now.


Reread Dial H #1-3 before starting 4 after a long break, this time i realllllly tried to follow what was going on and did a better job, but i'm still a little confused on things. It's a bizarre fun book that should be read, I think it's getting ignored because it's a new 52 low selling title.
 
C

Cetra

Member
Jedeye Sniv said:
Totally get you on Batman + daddy issues. I grew up without a dad and I kinda think I'm so into Batman (and Robin) as a consequence. Batman was a good male role model. Mostly. lol

I 100% don't think that Morrison will do a depressing ending (that's for all the tie-ins this month to wallow in). In a recent interview you could tell that he has big plans for the ending. It's very much in his MO to drag a character down as absolutely far as they go before bringing them back better than ever (see The Filth, or Batman RIP or pretty much all his work). I have faith that something good, or at least sweet, will come out of the ending. I think it will have a lot to do with Bruce and talia talking it out. The story is a big divorce metaphor anyway, they need to go to marriage counselling or something :)

I think that the family aspects of Tomasi's run were certainly the strongest (much as they were on his Nightwing run) but it's the A-story that I found a bit bland. I would honestly have been happier if it was just Bruce and Damian walking the dog and having a chat. I dropped the book during that awful Terminus (or whatever he was called) story. The B-plot with Damian challenging the other Robins was wonderful but again the A-plot was just dumb comics stuff. Sometimes I wish comics didn't have to pander to the imaginary 12-year-olds reading and have the balls to let interpersonal stuff lead some books.
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much the last time I spent any time with Pop was opening day Batman 1989. I've been a diehard Batman fan ever since, haha.

Definitely, the Bruce and Damian just chilling out moments were the heart of that book. Those moments are more frequent past the Terminus story.

Yeah I mean, I don't know many 12 year olds that read comics. Obviously I dunno how old posters in this thread are but I'd be willing to bet the bulk of us are 18-30 year olds. Thats another reason I dug Death of the Family so much. Reminded me of a line that Starbuck said in BSG. "In order for a child to truly live they're parents have to die." The whole idea that Batman can only operate at 100% when he relies only on himself, which I agree with. But it's also in direct conflict with his principles. So it came off as rather tragic to me.

Either way, I've really enjoyed the discussion this morning. Pretty stoked about re-reading all this Morrison Batman. Good times!
 
Jedeye Sniv

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Dark Sun Cetra said:
Yeah, pretty much the last time I spent any time with Pop was opening day Batman 1989. I've been a diehard Batman fan ever since, haha.

Definitely, the Bruce and Damian just chilling out moments were the heart of that book. Those moments are more frequent past the Terminus story.

Yeah I mean, I don't know many 12 year olds that read comics. Obviously I dunno how old posters in this thread are but I'd be willing to bet the bulk of us are 18-30 year olds. Thats another reason I dug Death of the Family so much. Reminded me of a line that Starbuck said in BSG. "In order for a child to truly live they're parents have to die." The whole idea that Batman can only operate at 100% when he relies only on himself, which I agree with. But it's also in direct conflict with his principles. So it came off as rather tragic to me.

Either way, I've really enjoyed the discussion this morning. Pretty stoked about re-reading all this Morrison Batman. Good times!
Click to expand...

Yeah man me too. This is what comics talk should be about, not yelling at each other, just having different opinions and finding where we cross over. Take it as an example comicsGAF!
the example being that if you diss morrison I'm going to make you talk about it lol

EDIT: it's also funny how the point of Snyder's story is the absolute opposite of Morrison's message, that Batman has never been alone. Although maybe that was just Joker's point - I don't have to agree with him!
 
G

GrandHarrier

Member
Jedeye Sniv said:
EDIT: it's also funny how the point of Snyder's story is the absolute opposite of Morrison's message, that Batman has never been alone. Although maybe that was just Joker's point - I don't have to agree with him!
Click to expand...

We should always remember that there is more than one batman. There is light hearted, Detective, and God damn. You see them in different stories. Sometimes you get more than one. But usually not.
 
C

Cetra

Member
Jedeye Sniv said:
Yeah man me too. This is what comics talk should be about, not yelling at each other, just having different opinions and finding where we cross over. Take it as an example comicsGAF!
the example being that if you diss morrison I'm going to make you talk about it lol

EDIT: it's also funny how the point of Snyder's story is the absolute opposite of Morrison's message, that Batman has never been alone. Although maybe that was just Joker's point - I don't have to agree with him!
Click to expand...

True that, LOL.

Yeah the difference in perspective on Batman as a character between the two writers is pretty striking. In a way it does a good job of highlighting both his strengths and weaknesses through two completely different lenses.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Bachalo is submitting absolutely unacceptable work at this point. Fucking photoshop lens-flares. Really.

I also feel like someone must be ghost-writing All New X-Men because Uncanny X-Men is the definition of a modern Bendis book: aka, not good.
 
B

BlueScrote

Member
Finished Rucka's No Man's Land novelization last night. Prior to reading it I was entirely unfamiliar with that particular event. I'm quite unfamiliar with Cass Cain as well (mostly my only exposure being as Black Bat in Batman Inc).

I like it. It moved along at a brisk pace. I really like the character POVs that weren't batman. It really helped make the character more of a reclusive myth then he comes across as in the comics.

Was this arc in the comic really Harley's introduction as well?

It was fun seeing Essen being with Gordon as well, really only having been exposed to her in Loeb's Long Halloween/Dark Victory books.
Definitely didn't see Essen's death coming either
.

Overall I really enjoyed it.
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
Pie and Beans said:
Bachalo is submitting absolutely unacceptable work at this point. Fucking photoshop lens-flares. Really.

I also feel like someone must be ghost-writing All New X-Men because Uncanny X-Men is the definition of a modern Bendis book: aka, not good.
Click to expand...

Way to be wrong, dude. Shit just got super fucking real in the best kind of way. There's plenty of plot threads to be picked up, and you got your big mission statement, and Bachalo fucking delivered. It fucking ruled.

So I bought Secret Avengers #2 expecting things to get stupid in a fun and enjoyable way. Welp, tough titties, it's dumb, and not the cool kind of dumb you want.
 
C

Cetra

Member
Bachalo's art aside, Uncanny 3 was pretty good. I'm stoked for number four. This is after telling myself if this was as mediocre as the first two I was gonna drop the series.
 
C

Cetra

Member
Penguin said:
Going from Batman and Robin 18 to Batman 18 was a mistake.

There just wasn't any punch/emotion to Batman afterwards.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was super glad I just decided to read Batman 18 first. 'Cause B&R 18 just destroyed it this month.

BlueScrote said:
Finished Rucka's No Man's Land novelization last night. Prior to reading it I was entirely unfamiliar with that particular event. I'm quite unfamiliar with Cass Cain as well (mostly my only exposure being as Black Bat in Batman Inc).

I like it. It moved along at a brisk pace. I really like the character POVs that weren't batman. It really helped make the character more of a reclusive myth then he comes across as in the comics.

Was this arc in the comic really Harley's introduction as well?

It was fun seeing Essen being with Gordon as well, really only having been exposed to her in Loeb's Long Halloween/Dark Victory books.
Definitely didn't see Essen's death coming either
.

Overall I really enjoyed it.
Click to expand...

I'm working through the TPB of that now, and I'm digging the hell out of it. All the different characters and focus on the daily life of living in No Man's Land. Good stuff.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
An entire Harper issue selling her as next Robin just after Damien's death? Yeah, this is coming off my pull for good. Tactless. Come on Morrison, wrap it up so I can blow this popstand altogether.
 
C

CBTech

Member
Comic newbie here.

As a kid I watched the hell out of all of the superhero cartoons and I go to watch just about all superhero movies that come out, but I have never really read many comics themselves.

Recently, I've been wanting to read more comics. Since jumping into current serialization feels very daunting to me, I have been trying to find famous or good trade paperbacks for some of my favorite characters. At the moment I've only read some of the Batman arcs such as The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Hush, The Long Halloween, and Year One.

What trades would you all recommend for these characters:
Batman
Spiderman
X-Men
Any other suggestions are also welcome.

Also, would you recommend signing up for Marvel's online services? It seems like a good way to read some older comics and the easiest and cheapest way for me to read something like Ultimate Spiderman.

One last thing, do any of you know of any comics in the cyberpunk genre?
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
Pie and Beans said:
An entire Harper issue selling her as next Robin just after Damien's death? Yeah, this is coming off my pull for good. Tactless. Come on Morrison, wrap it up so I can blow this popstand altogether.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's as cut and dry. There are certainly elements of the Batman/Robin thing, but I think it's made pretty clear that neither of them actually want this. Whether or not it happens will have to wait for some time, but this is clearly "Things are fucked up and you need help", not "hey so I see there's a job opening here's my resume".
 
R

Rafa=FedKilla

Banned
Wy is Nick Spencer continuing to co-write the Avengers?
And McKelvie can only go for five issues on YA when he is only drawings the characters and nothing else. Losing a lot of respect for him...
 
R

Rafa=FedKilla

Banned
And someone who is not on a phone please post Junes Secret Avengets over. Looks like they photoshopped Samuel Ls face on Black Fury. Hilariously awfull
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
HAWKEYE2012012_cov.jpg
Click to expand...

how many books is this guy on
 
C

Cetra

Member
Killrion said:
Comic newbie here.

As a kid I watched the hell out of all of the superhero cartoons and I go to watch just about all superhero movies that come out, but I have never really read many comics themselves.

Recently, I've been wanting to read more comics. Since jumping into current serialization feels very daunting to me, I have been trying to find famous or good trade paperbacks for some of my favorite characters. At the moment I've only read some of the Batman arcs such as The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Hush, The Long Halloween, and Year One.

What trades would you all recommend for these characters:
Batman
Spiderman
X-Men
Any other suggestions are also welcome.

Also, would you recommend signing up for Marvel's online services? It seems like a good way to read some older comics and the easiest and cheapest way for me to read something like Ultimate Spiderman.

One last thing, do any of you know of any comics in the cyberpunk genre?
Click to expand...

There's a shitload for Batman. Pretty much look at everything since Grant Morrison started writing it. You pretty much have read the key stuff outside of that already.

On X-Men I'd recommend Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men. It's... amazing IMO.

I love Marvel Unlimited, now that I can read it on my iPad it's godly. Been re-reading alot of the Marvel stuff from the 90's that I grew up with. It's kinda awful for the most part but it's a fun nostalgia trip at least, haha.
 
B

Blader

Member
ElNarez said:
I don't think it's as cut and dry. There are certainly elements of the Batman/Robin thing, but I think it's made pretty clear that neither of them actually want this. Whether or not it happens will have to wait for some time, but this is clearly "Things are fucked up and you need help", not "hey so I see there's a job opening here's my resume".
Click to expand...

They're not real you know. It's just Snyder pushing his mary sue creation.
 
K

krypt0nian

Banned
Batman & Robin was the tits. Dat letter, man. Comic hasn't made me cry in ages. Stupid Laika. *sniff*

but no way can you discount how good Batman 18 was. Harper is so fucking SO fucking cool and just what comics need right now.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
krypt0nian said:
Batman & Robin was the tits. Dat letter, man. Comic hasn't made me cry in ages. Stupid Laika. *sniff*

but no way can you discount how good Batman 18 was. Harper is so fucking SO fucking cool and just what comics need right now.
Click to expand...

That Harper issue Andrew Clark (I think?) and Cloonan drew was indeed my favorite DC thing all last year.
 
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