Support NeoGAF

[NightmareFarm]

This isn't a console war thread, I am being completely neutral here and expect everyone else to be.

The PS3 had some weird and bold ideas(cough cough boomerang controller...) but those ideas were given a lot of flack from fans and they ended up dragging down it's sales during the first half of the 7th generation, even after Sony backtracked on some of them. The implementation of said ideas also drove the price of the PS3 up a lot, which is one of the biggest reasons why it struggled to take off the ground. This led to the Xbox 360 dominating the PS3 in sales for most of the gen.

Funny enough, the same situation is reversed a generation later. Microsoft backpedalling on a whole lot of wacky shit(like having to be online to play games) and their newest console getting outsold into the dust by the more conventional PS4 which was marketed as basically a more refined and beefier PS3.

You could argue the Wii which is relatively modern sold 100M despite being underpowered and banking solely on the innovative motion control remote but that was just a fluke. It's successor, the Wii U which also had it's own innovation gimmick with the tablet controller sold abysmally low at 10-15M.

This is why the PS5 and Xbox Series consoles were such a small leap compared to it's predecessors, and are selling very well. And is also why the Switch, which is the least gimmicky nintendo console since the GCN is selling like hotcakes. Companies have realised the best option is to play it as safe as possible nowadays. Gamers are comfortable with how consoles work nowadays and don't care as much for innovation like they used to in the 80s, 90s and Early 00s as the medium has found it's feet and people have become satisfied. It is said that "Competition drives innovation" although here it is ironically the opposite, for better or worse.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This isn't a console war thread, I am being completely neutral here and expect everyone else to be.

 

[NightmareFarm]

It's just there so the mods dont nuke my thread tbh.

 

[nowhat]

This is why the PS5 and Xbox Series consoles were such a small leap compared to it's predecessors, and are selling very well.

The Series consoles are selling well? Now that is news, I'd like to see your source for that claim.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Maybe I'm wrong, but based on Road to PS5, Cerny said they took a completely different approach to PS5 hardware architecture by ensuring maximum power-consumption at all times and the architecture would cause a paradigm shift in game-design, something that would affect game-development more than the experience for end-users.

That alone sounds like quite the ambition (and it's why PS5-performance is equal to Series X).

 

[winjer]

This generation of consoles has, what is probably the biggest jump in storage ever.
It's so advanced, that the SSD and file system of the PS5 hasn't been matched. Even in high end PCs.

 

[NightmareFarm]

The Series consoles are selling well? Now that is news, I'd like to see your source for that claim.

I mainly meant the PS5 but I had the impression the Series was doing better than the previous gen of Xbox. It looks like it's selling roughly the same. But regardless my point applies with the PS5 and Switch which are the other recent consoles.

 

[Ozriel]

This isn't a console war thread, I am being completely neutral here and expect everyone else to be.

The PS3 had some weird and bold ideas(cough cough boomerang controller...) but those ideas were given a lot of flack from fans and they ended up dragging down it's sales during the first half of the 7th generation, even after Sony backtracked on some of them. The implementation of said ideas also drove the price of the PS3 up a lot, which is one of the biggest reasons why it struggled to take off the ground. This led to the Xbox 360 dominating the PS3 in sales for most of the gen.

Funny enough, the same situation is reversed a generation later. Microsoft backpedalling on a whole lot of wacky shit(like having to be online to play games) and their newest console getting outsold into the dust by the more conventional PS4 which was marketed as basically a more refined and beefier PS3.

You could argue the Wii which is relatively modern sold 100M despite being underpowered and banking solely on the innovative motion control remote but that was just a fluke. It's successor, the Wii U which also had it's own innovation gimmick with the tablet controller sold abysmally low at 10-15M.

This is why the PS5 and Xbox Series consoles were such a small leap compared to it's predecessors, and are selling very well. And is also why the Switch, which is the least gimmicky nintendo console since the GCN is selling like hotcakes. Companies have realised the best option is to play it as safe as possible nowadays. Gamers are comfortable with how consoles work nowadays and don't care as much for innovation like they used to in the 80s, 90s and Early 00s as the medium has found it's feet and people have become satisfied. It is said that "Competition drives innovation" although here it is ironically the opposite, for better or worse.

You’re describing innovation for innovation’s sake. And that’s just useless. Most people just want an affordable device that can play high quality games. The Switch certainly isn’t ’playing Safe’. Moving from traditional
Console to an ARM device that combines both handheld and stationary use wasn’t ‘safe’ at all.

The PS5 and Series took risks with making expensive, subsidized hardware with fast SSDs as default, all for a $499 price.

Stuff you cite as ‘risks’ or ‘innovation’ like boomerang controller and always online connectivity aren’t really anything special tbh.

 

[Ozriel]

Maybe I'm wrong, but based on Road to PS5, Cerny said they took a completely different approach to PS5 hardware architecture by ensuring maximum power-consumption at all times and the architecture would cause a paradigm shift in game-design, something that would affect game-development more than the experience for end-users.

That alone sounds like quite the ambition (and it's why PS5-performance is equal to Series X).

That certainly doesn’t seem like what Cerny said.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I mainly meant the PS5 but I had the impression the Series was doing better than the previous gen of Xbox. It looks like it's selling roughly the same. But regardless my point applies with the PS5 and Switch which are the other recent consoles.

Series sales are pretty much dead outside of US/UK and in US/UK they're dying as well.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

That certainly doesn’t seem like what Cerny said.

It's literally what he said.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Series sales are pretty much dead outside of US/UK and in US/UK they're dying as well.

It's in a similar situation to the Xbox One of yestergen then.

 

[solidus12]

I believe it’s an exaggeration to say that Xbox 360 was dominating the PS3 in sales. They were pretty close sales wise.

It’s not like the 360 was outselling the PS3 3 to 1.

 

[Ozriel]

It's literally what he said.

You could at least link to a timestamp where you claim he said variable clocks would lead to a new and transformative paradigm in game design.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

You could at least link to a timestamp where you claim he said variable clocks would lead to a new and transformative paradigm in game dedesign.

Just watch the entirety. It's spread across different points throughout the video.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Maybe I'm wrong, but based on Road to PS5, Cerny said they took a completely different approach to PS5 hardware architecture by ensuring maximum power-consumption at all times and the architecture would cause a paradigm shift in game-design, something that would affect game-development more than the experience for end-users.

That alone sounds like quite the ambition (and it's why PS5-performance is equal to Series X).

It's just a x86-64 architechture with a few added nodes for optimization. A good step forward but any talk about "paradigm shifts" is just marketing speak, as we've been seeing from games barely changing format when compared with last gen.

 

[killatopak]

The ambition is there. It’s just not being adapted by consumers. VR is that ambition.

 

[BlackTron]

Just watch the entirety. It's spread across different points throughout the video.

Just watch this whole 1 hour video, trust be bro

 

[Bernoulli]

The problem is anything they do they'll get hated for it
Recently the PSVR2 and the Portal

 

[Killjoy-NL]

It's just a x86-64 architechture with a few added nodes for optimization. A good step forward but any talk about "paradigm shifts" is just marketing speak, as we've been seeing from games barely changing format when compared with last gen.

I can imagine that there will be different ways of approaching game-design, that people have to get used to.
That's why he used the "elevator-section" in games as example.

It's also why he said that for the end-user it might be very noticeable/different.

 

[cormack12]

I feel like most of the things in the OP are wrong tbh. And most innovations has been roundly rejected by most of the consumers.

Kinect
3D
VR
Move controls (PS Move)
AR
Labo
Amiibo/Skylanders
Remote play

The console leap is small because of Covid and the myriad games that are spanning both gens. Look at Alan Wake, Demon's Souls etc.

The problem is that art and design take up the biggest amount of time and effort but are front and centre. Not every one is going to have that budget. Art is still doing the heavy lifting as most mechanics are rarely evolving or unique.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I can imagine that there will be different ways of approaching game-design, that people have to get used to.
That's why he used the "elevator-section" in games as example.

It's also why he said that for the end-user it might be very noticeable/different.

Even the "elevator-section" was a terrible example to use. That kind of design was perfectly possible before (and was done many times).

Just adding a SSD to the mix without any secret sauce would already help improve it by a large margin, as people were already aware of for 10 years with PC gaming. What they did was just a further point of optimization, not a "paradigm shift".

 

[FunkMiller]

Your thesis is rather undone OP when you consider that Sony has wiped the floor with Xbox for a long time now.

There hasn’t really been any competition in the home console space for a long time now. Thats the problem.

 

[Fess]

the more conventional PS4 which was marketed as basically a more refined and beefier PS3

What? PS4 was in no way marketed as a refined and beefier PS3. They literally scrapped the whole foundation from PS3 and built PS4 from scratch.

And no I don’t in any way think competition killed ambition. Pretty much all big changes comes from increased competition and a need to readjust and find a new path forward to not be left in the dust.

 

[SHA]

Do investors like consumers attached to older consoles? No, are they responsible for gimmick ideas? Probably, do they really care about the future of consoles? Not really, all what they do is focusing on roi, that's unhealthy and incrementally put the consoles future at jeopardy, why are they behaving like that? Cause it's a risky business.

 

[Papa_Wisdom]

The last great generations was the 32-64 bits leading into the 128- Dreamcast/gc/xbox/ps2 generations. All the manufacturers with their in house development teams working with their own unique hardware and getting the most out of them with lots of creativity and unique experiences.

Since then games became sterile and safe all following the same formula.

If you wanted everything gaming had to offer during that time you HAD to have each console.

Since then ms and Sony just feels like the same console and owning either one feels like you don’t really need the other (especially with their games coming to pc)

During the 6th generation I would say that Sega going 3rd party was a big help to all 3 current manufacturers with them spreading a lot of their games exclusively across the consoles.

These days only Nintendo really have the same kind of aura that encapsulated gaming back then (IMO).

Sega leaving the console market set in motion the position we find ourselves in today and the current state of gaming.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Even the "elevator-section" was a terrible example to use. That kind of design was perfectly possible before (and was done many times).

Just adding a SSD to the mix without any secret sauce would already help improve it by a large margin, as people were already aware of for 10 years with PC gaming. What they did was just a further point of optimization, not a "paradigm shift".

Ofcourse there will be things that could be done before. The elevator was just an example.

And they didn’t just add a SSD, they created a whole new I/O-system alongside it.

I'm pretty sure Mark Cerny is much more knowledgeable on what he's saying than most here on Gaf.
Especially after how much of a joke most of the tech-wizards on Gaf became after the "lol 12Tflop vs 9Tflop, Cerny is full of shit"-discussions that happened at the time, when Road to PS5 and the Unreal Engine 5 tech-demo released.

 

[Wildebeest]

It is the US millennial generation that killed ambition in consoles. They are like a warm comfort blanket for the industry. A huge demographic group that will just keep regularly feeding you money if you give them what they expect.

 

[Ozriel]

Just watch the entirety. It's spread across different points throughout the video.

I should watch the entire video to validate or invalidate a point you admit you’re not sure of?

I can imagine that there will be different ways of approaching game-design, that people have to get used to.
That's why he used the "elevator-section" in games as example.

It's also why he said that for the end-user it might be very noticeable/different.

The ‘elevator’ talk was with regards to the SSD

 

[Fess]

There hasn’t really been any competition in the home console space for a long time now. Thats the problem.

This.

I hope Valve start doing Steam Boxes again or something. My leftover LCD Steam Deck that I placed on a dock in the living room showed me that Steam Deck is every bit a console while also being a PC, and the games I play on my PC are the same as those I play on the Deck, no ports needed, saves are synced 100%, purchases too, can even run mods.

I really can’t wait to forget all about the old dinosaur consoles once Valve finally take that step again.

But after that Valve will need competition too… so might not be a longterm live happily ever after scenario.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I should watch the entire video to validate or invalidate a point you admit you’re not sure of?


The ‘elevator’ talk was with regards to the SSD

Watch the whole video, it's in there. I'm not going to watch the entire vid for you, just because some random nobody on a forum doesn't believe me.

Power-consumption is a section east to find, so start there then.

 

[Ar¢tos]

VR has been, for me, the biggest jump in innovation. It completely changes gaming, from gameplay to immersion. But, sadly, it's impossible to demonstrate it in trailers, only by trying it, so adoption has been slow.
It's an amazing complement to flat gaming (VR isn't suitable to all genres, it will never replace flat gaming).

 

[jroc74]

I feel like most of the things in the OP are wrong tbh. And most innovations has been roundly rejected by most of the consumers.

Kinect
3D
VR
Move controls (PS Move)
AR
Labo
Amiibo/Skylanders
Remote play

The console leap is small because of Covid and the myriad games that are spanning both gens. Look at Alan Wake, Demon's Souls etc.

The problem is that art and design take up the biggest amount of time and effort but are front and centre. Not every one is going to have that budget. Art is still doing the heavy lifting as most mechanics are rarely evolving or unique.

Exactly.

Hell, some ppl still hate on VR to this day.

 

[Doom85]

I’m not saying getting experimental with consoles didn’t work at times, but honestly it felt like there were more misses than wins.

Christ, the fact that Xbox went so heavily in on Kinect was a major factor you failed to mention. They might have had one gen there they could have beaten Sony in sales, but nope. “Yeah, let’s go all in on what Nintendo is doing, because that totally fits our target audience!” Doesn’t help most Kinect games were not great to say the least.

And really was there THAT much experimentation with consoles in the 90’s/00’s? I don’t consider Super Nintendo, Gamecube, pretty much any PS gen, same with Xbox gen, etc. to be “experimental”. The games, that’s another story, but not the consoles themselves minus maybe one or two mild gimmicks some of which were stupid decisions anyway (looking at you, Gamecube discs).

And if there were more than I’m remembering, well that speaks to their lack of legacy compared to the actual game titles of the gen.

Hell, Xbox really missed the mark with Xbox One as their stupidity with “guys, it’s ALL your entertainment!” showed their lack of understanding. Most gamers don’t focus on that other shit: THEY WANT GOOD VIDEO GAMES.

That’s why I‘m enjoying this gen with my PS5 and Switch. No stupid gimmicks, just damn good games. People out here getting a taco and asking why isn’t it different from a taco they’ve had before, and I’m just enjoying my standard taco because you know what? That shit still slaps. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

 

[Papa_Wisdom]

Exactly.

Hell, some ppl still hate on VR to this day.

VR is the only thing that has moved gaming forward since the tail end of the ps360 era. I can understand why it had t set the world a light but for the enthusiast it’s a game changer (quite litterally)

 

[Horseganador]

What has killed the "ambition" on consoles is the development costs of a AAA, nothing more.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

That certainly doesn’t seem like what Cerny said.

You could at least link to a timestamp where you claim he said variable clocks would lead to a new and transformative paradigm in game design.

Cerny talked about a paradigm shift in regards to power-consumption. It's in that section of the video.

With game-design, he talked about the SSD allowing for more freedom in game-design. (From what I've seen skimming though Road to PS5)

So you got a point, I might have misremembered some stuff.

It were Jim Ryan and the Quantum League developer that discussed a paradigm shift in game-design:

PS5’s SSD Will Bring “A Paradigm Shift in How We Structure Our Game Worlds” – Quantum League Developer

gamingbolt.com

Sony games chief says next-gen is a 'paradigm shift' as PS5 unveiled

Sony has finally unveiled the PS5's design along with a host of games that will kick off a new generation described as a "paradigm shift".

www.developer-tech.com

 

[ungalo]

If ambition means half baked ideas (when it's not outright shit ideas) then for once i'm not on the side of ambition.

You could say some things need to fail before they succeed. But apart from VR those things never felt like they were made in a genuine way.

The Wii actually had success but Nintendo never really believed in motion gaming, that's why we call that a gimmick and nothing else.

 

[NightmareFarm]

You’re describing innovation for innovation’s sake. And that’s just useless. Most people just want an affordable device that can play high quality games. The Switch certainly isn’t ’playing Safe’. Moving from traditional
Console to an ARM device that combines both handheld and stationary use wasn’t ‘safe’ at all.

The PS5 and Series took risks with making expensive, subsidized hardware with fast SSDs as default, all for a $499 price.

Stuff you cite as ‘risks’ or ‘innovation’ like boomerang controller and always online connectivity aren’t really anything special tbh.

You could argue it was just bad innovation. I would agree. But innovation is risky and can determine whether a system succeeds with flying colours or whether it flops. And companies just aren't willing to take that risk nowadays.

>Console to an ARM device that combines both handheld and stationary use wasn’t ‘safe’ at all.

Compared to the previous few Nintendo systems, it was pretty safe. The gimmick didn't alter the way a game is played like the Wii with it's motion control remote or the Wii Us tablet controller. It just meant you can choose whether to play a game in portable mode or play it on the TV. Nintendo knows their portables are what prints money so they made a console which can be played as a portable. I wouldn't say it was all that risky tbh.

>The PS5 and Series took risks with making expensive, subsidized hardware with fast SSDs as default, all for a $499 price.

The pricing was risky but not so much as the PS3s $599 price tag and the other choices Sony made like using a cell processor and the boomerang controller. Or the choices MS made with the Xbox One pre-launch, like making it an online-only system. Marketing the power of the SSD would have been very unlikely to be met with criticism. At most, indifference.

 

[Doom85]

Amiibo/Skylanders

I don’t know how you can say customers rejected them.

Amiibo was a massive success sales wise, probably safe to say they made Nintendo more money than the Wii U. Don’t know how they’re doing during the Switch gen, but the Amiibo craze during the Wii U gen is well known.

Skylanders was a massive hit for a while. The problem is that soon the market got flooded too much with other similar games like Disney and LEGO’s versions. That’s too much at once and no one was going to buy all of that especially with how rapidly new expansions/toys were releasing for pretty much all of them.

Unless your definition of customers rejecting something means committing to the product forever regardless of storage space issues and/or expenses, no way should Skylanders and Amiibo qualify.

 

[Woopah]

I'd say the power thing is just the fact of diminishing returns, it's not being caused competition or lack of it.

 

[Chastten]

This is just something that happens as an industry matures. I mean, PC's are no different.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Your thesis is rather undone OP when you consider that Sony has wiped the floor with Xbox for a long time now.

There hasn’t really been any competition in the home console space for a long time now. Thats the problem.

Sony temporarily stopped wiping the floor with Xbox the one time in the recent past they tried to be overly ambitious and started wiping the floor with them again when they started playing it safe and when Xbox tried being overly ambitious.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

wrong.

is a technology and economic pressure issue.

as I said before, I think this market can't sustain more than two consoles.

 

[magnumpy]

This isn't a console war thread, I am being completely neutral here and expect everyone else to be.

The PS3 had some weird and bold ideas(cough cough boomerang controller...) but those ideas were given a lot of flack from fans and they ended up dragging down it's sales during the first half of the 7th generation, even after Sony backtracked on some of them. The implementation of said ideas also drove the price of the PS3 up a lot, which is one of the biggest reasons why it struggled to take off the ground. This led to the Xbox 360 dominating the PS3 in sales for most of the gen.

Funny enough, the same situation is reversed a generation later. Microsoft backpedalling on a whole lot of wacky shit(like having to be online to play games) and their newest console getting outsold into the dust by the more conventional PS4 which was marketed as basically a more refined and beefier PS3.

You could argue the Wii which is relatively modern sold 100M despite being underpowered and banking solely on the innovative motion control remote but that was just a fluke. It's successor, the Wii U which also had it's own innovation gimmick with the tablet controller sold abysmally low at 10-15M.

This is why the PS5 and Xbox Series consoles were such a small leap compared to it's predecessors, and are selling very well. And is also why the Switch, which is the least gimmicky nintendo console since the GCN is selling like hotcakes. Companies have realised the best option is to play it as safe as possible nowadays. Gamers are comfortable with how consoles work nowadays and don't care as much for innovation like they used to in the 80s, 90s and Early 00s as the medium has found it's feet and people have become satisfied. It is said that "Competition drives innovation" although here it is ironically the opposite, for better or worse.

maybe hardware innovation has slowed down overall, unless you're willing to charge a relatively high price, like the Nvidia 5000 series. which I don't think >$1,000+ will fly for a console. so make due with middling specs for a consumer friendly price.

if you really want a >$1,000 game machine just get a PC.

 

[NightmareFarm]

wrong.

is a technology and economic pressure issue.

as I said before, I think this market can't sustain more than two consoles.

Yes, it is an economic pressure issue.

I wouldn't really say it's because the tech has become stagnant. There are insane tech that can innovate gaming like VR, AI, etc but companies consider it too risky to market as an essential part of their consoles(hence why PSVR is brought in a seperate package). I'm not saying it would be a good idea for the consoles to be focused around those technologies either btw, i'm just saying companies don't want to take the risk.

 

[SimTourist]

Chasing gimmicks is what killed Sega's console business. A decent machine with good games is all you need.

 

[Majukun]

just because you are different doesn't mean you are useful.

all those "innovations" on the ps3 made it effectively a nightmare to develop for, making third party run worse.

same thing for the always online on XBONE, it effectively made the user experience worse by offering nothing of equal value as an exchange, hence why people refused it.

also, the switch being the safest nintendo console?an hybrid home/portable was never attempted before not has been done since, compare it to the wii u that was just a normal console with a tablet as a pad, something that at the time we saw so much that people mistook the wii u as an add on for the wii.

I don't wanna be too negative on your post, but has been a while since I saw so much wrong in a single one.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Why do some (you) seem to expect that the wheel needs to be reinvented every gen? The consumers have made it clear what they want as a console, and its up to the OEMs to make the best consoles they can within the confines of those needs.

This gen we have the adaptive triggers (and VR again) and SSD. Then all the usual stuff that comes from just having more capable hardware. What more do you need? MNre buttons on controllers? Completely radical (and ultimately limited) new control interface? Like... what?

If anything, I can't wait for us to reach a point where the hardware is as good as it can ever be, so devs can focus on making the best games possible as opposed to spending a lot of their time just getting their game to work.

 

[GeekGuyWithGlasses]

I feel like most of the things in the OP are wrong tbh. And most innovations has been roundly rejected by most of the consumers.

Kinect
3D
VR
Move controls (PS Move)
AR
Labo
Amiibo/Skylanders
Remote play

The console leap is small because of Covid and the myriad games that are spanning both gens. Look at Alan Wake, Demon's Souls etc.

The problem is that art and design take up the biggest amount of time and effort but are front and centre. Not every one is going to have that budget. Art is still doing the heavy lifting as most mechanics are rarely evolving or unique.

Kinect: it failed because

1) early iterations of the technology didnt worked properly in games

2) The games where the main gimmick was the Kinect were mostly..crap


3D: lack of 3D supported content, be it video games or TV channels, too expensive to be adopted by mainstream


VR: I fail to see how consumers rejected this technology, if anything with the rise of Oculus Quests it became more and more accessible price-wise


Move Controls: Wii says hi, Switch says hi, multiple millions sold units and counting

AR: No idea tbh

Labo: novel idea but eh...expensive gimmick unless you are a hardcore fan

Amiboo: easily interchangable with custom made NFC cards, I fail to see how this was rejected again

Remote play: im pretty sure that most people have nothing against remote play (may I remind you, Steam Link/ remote play has been a thing for long!), but when companies like Sony try to charge 300 quid for a device that can only be used to play games of a system that you additionally need to buy, it...makes for a tough price proposition, considering how you can do remote play on your smartphone/Geforce Now, Xbox etc...