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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
Mango's Marth is delightfully rough. I would love to see him become the next Marth god, though.
theprodigy
Member
I would just like to point out that Genesis 3 is already the 6th largest Melee tournament of all time.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Most of GAF doesn't seem to like competitive Smash. Even more of GAF doesn't seem to like competitive Melee.
It's kind of fascinating to me how the "new game is out, old game is outdated trash now" mentality is so prevalent here.
It's kind of fascinating to me how the "new game is out, old game is outdated trash now" mentality is so prevalent here.
The issue seems to come from gaming in general. Almost all series have a "new game is out now you must ditch the old since it's outdated" thought process.
The issue for Melee specifically does seem to be CRT's. As time goes on it will only be harder and harder to find and use them, and I doubt sponsored Nintendo events would continue happening if they ended up playing the game on PC's through Dolphin. So in theory for Melee's survival Melee HD would be the most optimal choice.
theprodigy
Member
most fanbases really aren't that rabid about it though (i.e. Mario Kart, Halo, Call of Duty, Uncharted, etc.)
it's not even a Nintendo fanboy thing, because Mario Kart
I find that it is usually people who are not fans of whatever series in question whenever they throw shade on someone playing an older edition
it's a very immature way of showing that you lack understanding of a topic, especially for games, but it's fed on by advertising screaming NEW NEW NEW so I doubt we'll ever be rid of that particular subset of people
it's a very immature way of showing that you lack understanding of a topic, especially for games, but it's fed on by advertising screaming NEW NEW NEW so I doubt we'll ever be rid of that particular subset of people
I really wish we could support all the older games that really have had the capability and scene to live through this type of stuff, I don't think any game has been as fortunate as Melee in this sense. I remember Counter-Strike 1.6->Source transition was just as abrasive on both sides. It's just a shame that because sometimes a series changes, and that's fine and usually a great progression, but sometimes you lose an aspect of a game you absolutely love, and in these competitive cases especially, once the scene dies, you will never have a game encapsulate that aspect ever again. I'd wish so hard to see 1.6, 3rd Strike, and whole huge list in general at it's peak of competition.
On the bright side, atleast that thread isn't a shitflinging thread about Nintendo vs [GAMEREDACTED]
edited by: GIMR
On a side note: 2PM Drunk Mang0/Alex19 casts are something.
On the bright side, atleast that thread isn't a shitflinging thread about Nintendo vs [GAMEREDACTED]
edited by: GIMR
On a side note: 2PM Drunk Mang0/Alex19 casts are something.
Talking about smash online is just so toxic at this point. There's just so much venom directed at melee players these days, it's crazy. People act like melee players are constantly mocking smash 4, when in fact the melee players in the thread haven't said anything negative about 4 or its players. The same often times can't be said of the reverse.
I feel like most people are arguing against a hypothetical elitist boogieman that just isn't there. It's mostly the idea that they're there insulting people and acting snide in the shadows somewhere. Not to say those don't exist, I personally know a few, but I don't think they exist in a greater number than any other sections of the smash community. I know and have met plenty of smash 4/casual elitists as well,
I feel like most people are arguing against a hypothetical elitist boogieman that just isn't there. It's mostly the idea that they're there insulting people and acting snide in the shadows somewhere. Not to say those don't exist, I personally know a few, but I don't think they exist in a greater number than any other sections of the smash community. I know and have met plenty of smash 4/casual elitists as well,
there are faaaaaaaaaaaaaar more "casual elitists" than "competitive elitists"
it's hilarious because this all started as a way to vent about competitive players that would play with items off, only on certain stages and "forced" their way to play on others. yet, today, you NEVER see that and these threads are full of "why don't the competitive players play the game properly?" or "WHY ARE THEY PLAYING THIS OLD GAME GOD JUST MOVE ON ALREADY"
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
After TBH5 people are actively looking for invisible ceilings, lol. Looks like you can use counter/Toad OOS and it will activate it.
fredrancour
Member
So at what point should I start subjecting myself to tournaments in my region?
This goes for both melee and sm4sh. In either game I would be utterly crushed by anyone remotely competent but all my friends who are good at smash and would be down for more than occasional matches live far away.
I know we got a melee regional in town on 11/21 so i guess that might be a fun way to get utterly devastated for the first time. we also got a steady supply of weeklies for both games, and sometimes monthlies.
This goes for both melee and sm4sh. In either game I would be utterly crushed by anyone remotely competent but all my friends who are good at smash and would be down for more than occasional matches live far away.
I know we got a melee regional in town on 11/21 so i guess that might be a fun way to get utterly devastated for the first time. we also got a steady supply of weeklies for both games, and sometimes monthlies.
Go to that and play. Play in tournament, play in friendlies, and have fun.
Going to that is way more beneficial than practicing at home, plus you might get some new ideas and renewed motivation.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
As soon as possible as often as possible. Maybe you can get some new buddies to practice with on a regular basis.
Play lots of friendlies. Ideally against someone who is pretty decent and can totally trash you, but gives you some opportunities to learn and can answer questions you might have. But any experience against other players will be beneficial for you.
fredrancour
Member
Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected to hear. I'll see what the first thing I can make it to is. I think we got a smash 4 monthly with melee side-event this saturday, so I'll see if I can make that. maybe i'll even link streams here if i make it far enough to show up on one so that gaf can watch me get mauled.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
You're going to go 0-2, don't expect to be on stream for a while unless your streamers just throw anyone on there.
The only people who do "well" at their first tournament are people who practice for months/a year on tech skill and movement and overwhelm other new/bad players. Then they get bopped by the first half-decent person they come across due to a lack of experience against good players.
Learn from the bottom up. Tech like L canceling is something you should drill really hard as early as possible since you don't need to learn when or how to use it. Most tech, like wavedashing, is completely useless unless you know what you are doing with it. That comes with experience against other people, so grinding tech by itself doesn't do you much good.
That doesn't mean don't practice though!
The only people who do "well" at their first tournament are people who practice for months/a year on tech skill and movement and overwhelm other new/bad players. Then they get bopped by the first half-decent person they come across due to a lack of experience against good players.
Learn from the bottom up. Tech like L canceling is something you should drill really hard as early as possible since you don't need to learn when or how to use it. Most tech, like wavedashing, is completely useless unless you know what you are doing with it. That comes with experience against other people, so grinding tech by itself doesn't do you much good.
That doesn't mean don't practice though!
fredrancour
Member
Yeah i know, the stream comment was just me preemptively having no ego about my smash skill and playing it off for laughs.
I am definitely aware wavedashing is for when i am better, though i must admit I had a lot of fun goofing off with it last night just cause I'd never done it before so it was kind of novel sliding about a little.
I do need to look up some youtube resources to make sure I'm l-cancelling right. I find myself wondering if I'm actually hitting them, distrusting my own eyes and fingers.
I guess I also need to pick a main sooner rather than later. That's how you're best-off, right? commit to a specific one so that learning spacing and shffl timings and such is easiest?
Don't worry about waiting until you're better to wavedash or do other tech, start implementing anything useful as soon as you can. Even if it makes you play worse short term, it's harder to really get the understanding unless you start doing it in actual matches when the pressure is on.
For L-Cancels, try Link's dair. It looks pretty different l-cancelled vs not. Check out these videos, I think they demo l-cancels in there somewhere.
I feel like it definitely helps to pick one character and learn with it. Playing other characters helps too, if you start to get bored, or need to understand how to fight certain characters. It can also help to have a secondary for certain matchups.
fredrancour
Member
Going to my first tournament gave me a false sense of confidence that messed me up later on. I always heard "you are going 0-2 at your first tournament" as the standard advice, so when I went 3-2 I thought I was hot shit.
The second tournament I went 0-2 and that killed my ego lol. You have to learn your place sometime I guess.
The second tournament I went 0-2 and that killed my ego lol. You have to learn your place sometime I guess.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'd actually say don't worry about picking a main.
Learn the game first, play with different characters. At least the top tiers and maybe some of the better high tiers (Pikachu, Samus, Luigi). Pick your main once you start getting a grasp of how you play and what your personal strengths and weaknesses are.
For me, even though in my head I want to play Falcon, it doesn't really work. Maybe someday I'll be able to make the switch, but when I started playing Sheik even after practicing a ton with Falcon, it just felt "right." Even though I'm still flubbing SHFFLs and stuff due to being used to Falcon.
Also, get 20XX. TE is coming out soon and that will only require a special save file on your memory card. The red flash on missed L cancels will help you nail that. And the green idle overlay is useful for just getting your general play speed up, idling after an action is problem for a lot of new players so having that visual helps. Among plenty of other things.
Learn the game first, play with different characters. At least the top tiers and maybe some of the better high tiers (Pikachu, Samus, Luigi). Pick your main once you start getting a grasp of how you play and what your personal strengths and weaknesses are.
For me, even though in my head I want to play Falcon, it doesn't really work. Maybe someday I'll be able to make the switch, but when I started playing Sheik even after practicing a ton with Falcon, it just felt "right." Even though I'm still flubbing SHFFLs and stuff due to being used to Falcon.
Also, get 20XX. TE is coming out soon and that will only require a special save file on your memory card. The red flash on missed L cancels will help you nail that. And the green idle overlay is useful for just getting your general play speed up, idling after an action is problem for a lot of new players so having that visual helps. Among plenty of other things.
Anecdotal evidence but I remember back in like 08 or so during the Melee vs. Brawl days the debate was toxic on both sides. I feel like the people who trash the Melee fanbase still think the Melee community hasn't evolved in the last seven years for some weird reason, which is why you get a bunch of people calling Melee players elitist; because they encountered a bunch of elitist Melee players on the GameFAQs Brawl board in 2008 or some shit.
The fascination with disliking people who play old games is strange though. In general a lot of the general gaming community seems to think the idea of playing classic games on original hardware with a CRT and owning lots of older games is completely foreign, which is pretty bizarre given how it's the only way to play many many notable games without emulation (and even then you still need to own the games for that to be legal). And the fact that many people who clearly like Smash 4 a lot but haven't read about or understand the mechanics/reasons that make people like Melee a lot is really weird. Like, the games are so different from each other and it should be pretty obvious why, IMO.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Sometimes I wonder what M2K does to be good at any Smash game he plays.
Tried going back to Melee today, and I needed a solid hour just getting used to the stricter inputs. I was walking everywhere and just standing when I wanted a smash lol. Does anyone else share this experience or am I just a scrub?
Also, how does everyone here feel about Rivals of Aether? I think it's a pretty great game already, my relatives love it despite struggling to bits in regular Smash titles.
Tried going back to Melee today, and I needed a solid hour just getting used to the stricter inputs. I was walking everywhere and just standing when I wanted a smash lol. Does anyone else share this experience or am I just a scrub?
Also, how does everyone here feel about Rivals of Aether? I think it's a pretty great game already, my relatives love it despite struggling to bits in regular Smash titles.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
M2K has said before he has to practice Melee more than other games because of that. He could coast more on other games but if he didn't practice and warm up with Melee he would play poorly and need some time to get back into it.
Melee is definitely harder to play though, it's not just you. It has no input buffer like the later games, and analog inputs are more sensitive I think. I feel like even things like turning around are more strict in Melee than other games.
Melee is definitely harder to play though, it's not just you. It has no input buffer like the later games, and analog inputs are more sensitive I think. I feel like even things like turning around are more strict in Melee than other games.
I have the same problem, but in reverse. If I pick up Brawl or 4, it takes a while for my brain to adjust. It's hard for me to not JC grab, and remember there's no wavedash, and remember how crazy strict dashdances are (well, pivots, whatever S4 DD is). It's tough to switch between games that are so similar but so different. I try to enter every event at stuff so that I get better at quick context switches, but it's difficult. Fun anyway though, so it's whatever. The biggest problem is usually having to stay late for PM or Smash 4.Sometimes I wonder what M2K does to be good at any Smash game he plays.
Tried going back to Melee today, and I needed a solid hour just getting used to the stricter inputs. I was walking everywhere and just standing when I wanted a smash lol. Does anyone else share this experience or am I just a scrub?
Also, how does everyone here feel about Rivals of Aether? I think it's a pretty great game already, my relatives love it despite struggling to bits in regular Smash titles.
Rivals is great.
LucidMomentum
Member
So I found out my family is taking a trip to the Bay Area this weekend so I'll miss our biweekly :/ RIP my power ranking points.
However, 20 minutes away from our hotel is a pre Final Boss PM tournament, so my brother and I will be spending our Saturday there.
It's always nice to play new people, and the venue looks great so I'm stoked.
However, 20 minutes away from our hotel is a pre Final Boss PM tournament, so my brother and I will be spending our Saturday there.
It's always nice to play new people, and the venue looks great so I'm stoked.
I haven't really looked into it deeply. My surface level understanding from seeing bits and pieces here and there is:
Summit nominations were supposed to be open just to notable players, decided by MIOM rankings and the people running the Summit.
There was a mistake that allowed anyone to be nominated.
A player entered as MH | Mememan (actual tag is Brookman I think?), gets voted up because 'LOL memes guyz'
Then he gets removed from the voting.
Rivals of Aether looks pretty damn cool/solid, but of no fault of it's own I don't think 8 characters would have much staying power in terms of my casual enjoyment of the game. I get non-smash friends to play PM/Melee/other Fighting games all the time and one of the biggest factors in longevity of when those non-fgc friends play is how many characters they can cycle through to keep it fresh. I would personally like around 12 for base game but that said as a small indie push the game is super solid mechanically and has some interesting character ideas.Also, how does everyone here feel about Rivals of Aether? I think it's a pretty great game already, my relatives love it despite struggling to bits in regular Smash titles.
*Looks out the window*
"Pops stop the car... I HAVE TO SMASH."
LucidMomentum
Member
Lol, Seriously!
Over the past couple of years our annual trip to the grandparents has been a snorefest, as my parents don't want to be without the car for the day but my cousins don't really make time for us to hang out either.
So when the option to spend a day in downtown San Jose smashing and walking around came up, damn right we took it. We can see Gams the next day - papa needs to get SMASHED.
theprodigy
Member
Genesis 3 registration update:
Genesis 3 is now the 5th largest Melee tournament and 8th largest Smash tournament overall of all time (passing Apex 2014 Melee), as well as the 10th largest Smash 4 tournament (passing Final Battle)
Genesis 3 is now the 5th largest Melee tournament and 8th largest Smash tournament overall of all time (passing Apex 2014 Melee), as well as the 10th largest Smash 4 tournament (passing Final Battle)
I feel like Smash 4 entrant numbers will rise again in Spring/Summer whereas Melee is more consistent throughout the year.
After Smashcon Smash 4 entrant numbers just dropped, only correlation I can come up with is either summer ended and school started for most players or after Smashcon most people just decided to drop it.
But seeing as how viewer numbers for streams has only gone up I don't think it's the latter.
Also I think Genesis 3 could potentially be the 2nd largest Melee tournament ever. I think it is gonna get pretty fucking close to Evo 2015 actually. One 30 second teaser created more hype for a tournament than I have seen in a LONG time.
After Smashcon Smash 4 entrant numbers just dropped, only correlation I can come up with is either summer ended and school started for most players or after Smashcon most people just decided to drop it.
But seeing as how viewer numbers for streams has only gone up I don't think it's the latter.
Also I think Genesis 3 could potentially be the 2nd largest Melee tournament ever. I think it is gonna get pretty fucking close to Evo 2015 actually. One 30 second teaser created more hype for a tournament than I have seen in a LONG time.
I must have missed this. Link?
Wow, that's awesome.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
It's glad to hear others have the same issue lol. I've been focusing on Sm4sh for the most part, but I've started competitively with Melee and my mind can differentiate between what options are available between games.I have the same problem, but in reverse. If I pick up Brawl or 4, it takes a while for my brain to adjust. It's hard for me to not JC grab, and remember there's no wavedash, and remember how crazy strict dashdances are (well, pivots, whatever S4 DD is). It's tough to switch between games that are so similar but so different. I try to enter every event at stuff so that I get better at quick context switches, but it's difficult. Fun anyway though, so it's whatever. The biggest problem is usually having to stay late for PM or Smash 4.
Rivals is great.
Of course, then I forget I can dash dance in Melee, or I forget you can't jump-cancel shine with Fox in Sm4sh. >.<;;;
I got worried that the short characters would hurt the enjoyment of my little relatives, but surprisingly they just picked one character from the get-go, fell in love with them, and even after encouraging them to try out others they insisted on using the same characters. I don't blame them, each character has so much in their toolsets to use and FFAs are incredibly chaotic even without items.
These kids aren't exactly pro-players either, they can actually win matches in Rivals whereas in regular Smash games I typically stomp by a landslide while picking random, it's a wonderfully designed game.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
My brother has been beating my dthrow tech chasing with DI away -> tech in place -> spotdodge now, along with immediate get up attacks which I still struggle with. Forward or back rolls get followed up on nearly every time, as do in place techs with bad DI.
Timing for doing anything on that DI->tech->dodge is really hard, it's only a few frames, and most of the time when I tried to bait it he would grab me. Fsmash actually seemed like the best option to cover that, it's such a long attack that it either hit him after the tech or after the spot dodge depending on my timing. Following the fsmash is rough though depending on percent and which hit I connect with though.
Get up attacks are just, urgh. What's the best option against those? Just holding down to cc the hit? Not having much luck trying to shield grab it.
Timing for doing anything on that DI->tech->dodge is really hard, it's only a few frames, and most of the time when I tried to bait it he would grab me. Fsmash actually seemed like the best option to cover that, it's such a long attack that it either hit him after the tech or after the spot dodge depending on my timing. Following the fsmash is rough though depending on percent and which hit I connect with though.
Get up attacks are just, urgh. What's the best option against those? Just holding down to cc the hit? Not having much luck trying to shield grab it.
Apparently for Project M netplay crowd, Dolphin updates have finally set up that SD card workaround for netplay so we don't have to rebuild a new iso every time. Now every update just means updating your virtual SD card, and with this get most of the missing content from before like alt stages and free easier customization for music and other content.
Best option is to try to get in attack range and react power shield when you see getup attack, this means if he tries to roll you can still have the option to move either way. That said, you can bait it by going near their and jumping away aerial/full jumping into fast fall punish, or dash dance grab. Remember that if you're chasing the tech, once dash becomes run you can crouch to reset you to neutral for immediate action or wavedash if you need more dodge mobility. One thing Lucky does is he chases the knockdown on the ground, runs at him to force an option (for example getup attack) then wavedashes straight down to stop running movement and I believe that also gives you less landing lag but don't quote me on that.
theprodigy
Member
Yeah, Genesis 3 numbers are crazy.
On that note, Genesis 3 (Melee) passed Super Smash Con (Smash 4) for 7th overall, while on the Smash 4 front Genesis 3 passed Smash Factor 4 for 9th.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Power shield grab is what I was trying to do but I haven't done a single time successfully.
Wavedashing is something I've only recently started implementing into my play so it's not something that comes to mind, but I guess it does open up some doors here. Can wavedash back on the no tech to avoid the get up attack and then punish, but I still need to get better at recognizing the little tech star. That also opens up the issue of giving them an opportunity to roll away on a notech since I'll be increasing the distance between myself and the opponent. Alternatively, there is also the option of just shielding on top of them on the no tech. If they attack or normal get up you shield grab, if they roll you wavedash OOS and dash to follow and grab.
Got me thinking better, at least.
That's pretty much what I was going to suggest. Shielding the get up attack on reaction is the best way to cover it, but of course it's very hard. I can't really do it, so I have to try to bait the get up attack or at least recognize when people are likely to do it.
When you're near someone and not shielding, especially if you do anything besides standing, waiting to shield, people get antsy and really want to do that get up attack. Likewise, if you stand there and shield, they'll usually pick one of their other 3 options of course. Or, they'll try to do the attack right when they think you'll drop shield. Try to explore around the timings of the decision points, see what you can do to manipulate them to one action or other.
But also, keep in mind that going for a follow-up isn't always the best. Sometimes the true combo is grab or attack, into taking stage. If your opponent is DIing away and teching away, they might end up relatively close to the corner. If you hang out just a bit outside of their space, they don't have a lot of room to maneuver. You can take advantage of that. Sometimes that's a lot better than trying to extend a combo with followups that won't quite reach for sure.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, it's hard to hold for sure. I have a lot of trouble with that too. I'll gain a good position and then lose it super easy.
Still, I think it's a valuable thing to go for, if nothing else as a setup for learning how to abuse it. I'm not great at pressing the advantage myself, but I definitely know how frustrating it is when strong opponents have stage control.
My idea of it is mostly this: when backed into a corner, consider that your opponent essentially loses dash(dance) away and wavedash back as means of retaliation and defense. Knowing that, it becomes more likely for them to shield, roll in, spotdodge, or try to jump over you to make it back inside.
(I know my ramblings aren't really helping at this point, and probably aren't even correct. But if nothing else, it's fun/helpful to get myself verbalizing ideas about the game, and I imagine it's the same for you and others to put your ideas into words.)
Both games peaked at just over 70k.
I came to smash from traditional fighters, but I've kinda fallen off of them in the past year or so (waiting for the SFV hype). Does Smash consistently beat FGC in stream and tournament entry numbers? I don't think I've seen FGC stuff climb that high outside of EVO.
Smash (both Melee and Smash 4) kills everything besides Street Fighter IV.
I'm not sure what the Street Fighter IV equivalent to Smash's Apex or Big House is. Maybe Final Round? I don't remember what the numbers were like for Street Fighter there. How did Melee do at CEO vs. Street Fighter IV?
I'm assuming the huge Capcom Cup Finals this year with $500k on the line will beat any Smash tournament when it comes to viewership.