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[Jimrpg]

All the execs care about is making money, they're ready to destroy the world to do it.

 

[D i Z]

Huh.

This seems blind to some of realities of inter-national politics. I'm actually really curious what the domestic reaction in China would have been if they casted a non-Chinese POC instead of Damon.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind Damon's addition if what we've seen/heard so far didn't seem phoned in. I'm interested to see what happens with his performance.

Again, she's not talking about casting a non chinese POC with those examples. She speaking of the kind of hero that Chinese people can identify with conceptually, and not what none Asians imagine as cool heroic Asian types and stories that are tropes. Misconceptions that falsely identify a nation rich with history and traditions, and its people culturally.

 

[milkham]

Huh.

This seems blind to some of realities of inter-national politics. I'm actually really curious what the domestic reaction in China would have been if they casted a non-Chinese POC instead of Damon. Like a Ken Watanabe or Daniel Kim.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind Damon's addition if what we've seen/heard so far didn't seem phoned in. I'm interested to see what happens with his performance.

Makes me wonder how it would've been received if it had been a Japanese or Vietnamese actor, instead of Damon.

Not on the Western side of the world (poorly, most likely), but in China.

There actually seemed to be a lot of crossover in the late 90s early 2000s in HK cinema with Japanese actors. Led to movies where everyone is speaking a different language but they all understand each other which was weird, not sure what was going on back then. These days having Koreans wouldn't be that unusual but I'm not sure about something with this kind of budget behind it. I don't know anything about vietnamese entertainment but Japanese and Korean stuff is pretty popular in the region and there is some back and forth which is usually fine until someone says something about contested islands or international maritime regulations, then everyone remembers that they hate each other.

 

[Not]

Constance Wu should be more in more shit. I can't imagine how fucking infuriating it must be to be a talentedass Asian-american actor trying to get work in 2016.

 

[numble]

The movie was conceived by the white CEO of Legendary, I believe. Script is written by white writers. It isn't exactly as Chinese as you would think.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Again, she's not talking about casting a non chinese POC with those examples. She speaking of the kind of hero that Chinese people can identify with conceptually, and not what none Asians imagine as cool heroic Asian types and stories that falsely identify them culturally.

The story seems to be set-up based on some kind of exploring force stumbling across the Wall.

In that regard my hypothetical was, if Damon wasn't cast in that role, how are you going to do that casting? What's the "optimal" choice?

There actually seemed to be a lot of crossover in the late 90s early 2000s in HK cinema with Japanese actors. Led to movies where everyone is speaking a different language but they all understand each other which was weird, not sure what was going on back then. These days having Koreans wouldn't be that unusual but I'm not sure about something with this kind of budget behind it.

I'm admittedly unfamiliar with modern Chinese cinema's crossovers of late, but as an example, I can't imagine that there would be an extreme fondness for a Japanese actor given some of the numbers I've seen on anti-Japanese sentiment. Although maybe actors are seen in a different light than the country/citizenry at large.

 

[MisterR]

What Chinese star would you all cast as the lead of a movie this size with the type of box office appeal to make money on it?

 

[Angel_DvA]

it's just to appeal to the NA audience, it's not the first time they're doing it...

They need to have a male american white savior in all movies lol, even if the character based on wasn't american or white or whatever ( The Last Samurai for example ) it happens in video games too, Battlefield 1 is a great example of rewriting history to please the american audience.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The story seems to be set-up based on some kind of exploring force stumbling across the Wall.

In that regard my hypothetical was, if Damon wasn't cast in that role, how are you going to do that casting?

I gave the

Presumably some explorer of color from the same continent and not one from a place almost 12,000km away?

What Chinese star would you all cast as the lead of a movie this size with the type of box office appeal to make money on it?

Can people not see how the lack of an answer to this is the EXACT fucking problem she's talking about?? It's a self perpetuating cycle of white dudes being that "only bankable actors"

And before you respond, I always know how you guys will argue.

1. Studios are a business, they have to make money.
2. Why should a studio take a financial risk?
3. We should maintain the status quo

Yeah you won't explicitly say #3, but it's the implication when you use #1 or #2

 

[numble]

http://collider.com/matt-damon-the-great-wall-charles-roven/

The film The Great Wall had a very long, winding road to production. Initially set up as the inaugural film for Legendary East—an Asia-based offshoot of Legendary Productions—the movie was to be directed by Edward Zwick with Henry Cavill and Benjamin Walker starring, but budget issues caused the movie to delay and that particular team to fall apart. However, it subsequently came together again with House of Flying Daggers director Zhang Yimou at the helm and Matt Damon starring, marking Yimou’s first English-language film and the most expensive movie ever produced in China for a worldwide release.

The story, based on an original idea by Legendary CEO Thomas Tull and World War Z author Max Brooks, explores the mysteries behind the construction of The Great Wall in China as we follow two 15th century British soldiers who get caught up in the havoc caused by some inhuman element that the builders are trying to keep out.

We all know that Damon is starring in the pic, but in speaking with Atlas Entertainment President and The Great Wall producer Charles Roven recently (tied to the release of the first Warcraft trailer), Steve got the fascinating behind-the-scenes story of Damon’s history with the project

She is criticizing a Hollywood film, guys.

 

[Ridley327]

Remember, this same director also cast Christian Bale in The Flowers of War, a Chinese historical drama set during the Rape of Nanking.

I guess getting Hollywood stars to headline his films could become a trend for him.

To be fair, the real life story that it's based on does feature a white person. Granted, the real life figure was a woman, but it's not as out of sorts as it might seem.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Presumably some explorer of color from the same continent and not one from a place almost 12,000km away?

My post was exactly posing this, who from the "same continent" is going to pull a domestic Chinese audience?

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

I just can't get over the fact that an upper class American woman, born to a computer programmer and a university professor, is telling a Chinese born director whose first two jobs were as a farm hand and as textile worker to stop being racist and cast who she decides should be in the movie.

She needs to take a step back and look at the situation, not blindly criticize.

What in the actual fuck?

 

[JeTmAn81]

You really didn't stop to think about what all of those people have in common, did you?
Take a moment, google if need be. Then come back when you've grasped why they would be held in high regard by a people living with a legacy of communist rule and suppression.
Now contrast that with the unspoken rules of how the white savior trope works, and why it exists.

She said Chinese heroes don't look like Matt Damon. They look like the people she listed. She's not talking about anything other than race.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Legendary is owned by a Chinese group.

In all fairness, didn't the director say the writers were Hollywood writers?

Remember, this same director also cast Christian Bale in The Flowers of War, a Chinese historical drama set during the Rape of Nanking.

I guess getting Hollywood stars to headline his films could become a trend for him.

This is a terrible example, because that film was based on actual historical events and Bale played an actual historical figure. Very different to just plonking a random white guy in a fantasy epic set in ancient China.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

To be fair, the real life story that it's based on does feature a white person. Granted, the real life figure was a woman, but it's not as out of sorts as it might seem.

It kind of is. If you're taking liberties with a real person's gender then race should be an even smaller hurdle, unless they just have to be white

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Sorry Constance. You're great, but "don't blame the film makers"? The notion that multi-millionaires from the world's second most powerful country lack agency in this regard just doesn't wash. They're leveraging an asset and that's it. I guarantee the Chinese film industry sees having reached a position where Matt Damon is their employee as a victory.

 

[jwk94]

how can someone be racist against their own race?

That's pretty easy. Just like anyone else.

 

[N.Domixis]

What China needs to do is start showing some of their home grown movies in america and all over the world like we do. Translate them and start making asian stars.

 

[Septimus Prime]

You have to think of it from the perspective of an Asian American. It can be vastly different than a minority living in their home country. When an Asian in their respective country looks at movies, the vast majority are from their respective movie industries, meaning they see tons of representation of themselves and similar faces. Yes, it's a globalized economy and Hollywood is large as well, but their perception is looking into the "Western cinema" as an outsider and assuming it reflects the demographics of Western countries.

For an Asian American they see it in reverse. While they identify with their home countries, their movie industry IS Hollywood and they see the lack of representation. That China has a movie industry where 99.9% of the actors are Chinese is irrelevant.

So despite you pointing out her being Asian American as some attempt at irony, that very fact is EXACTLY why she's in a more reasonable position to make these claims

I think there is one key distinction you're missing here, though: to many of us, America is our "home country," so the outright rejection of us by media feels like we are being rejected by our home.

 

[numble]

The story seems to be set-up based on some kind of exploring force stumbling across the Wall.

In that regard my hypothetical was, if Damon wasn't cast in that role, how are you going to do that casting? What's the "optimal" choice?

I'm admittedly unfamiliar with modern Chinese cinema's crossovers of late, but as an example, I can't imagine that there would be an extreme fondness for a Japanese actor given some of the numbers I've seen on anti-Japanese sentiment. Although maybe actors are seen in a different light than the country/citizenry at large.

My post was exactly posing this, who from the "same continent" is going to pull a domestic Chinese audience?

You're doing a lot of stereotyping. Here is a popular Japanese actor that has appeared in many blockbuster Chinese films:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi_Kaneshiro

Korean actors and actresses are even more prevalent.

 

[ffejeromdiks]

Again with the Last Samurai defenders. I just can't keep doing this.

I mean if you want to just lazily regurgitate a 13 year old narrative then go right ahead but the film does not feature a white savior, it's quite the opposite. Cruise's character comes to actively reject western ideology and is haunted by white guilt for his participation in the massacre of native americans. If you want a white savior film to act as your scapegoat look to Last of the Mohicans, Avatar or Dances with Wolves, movies where it takes a white man's enlightenment to lead the troubled 'savages' to prosperity, not one where a white man comes to deeply love a culture but is ultimately powerless in preventing it's destruction.

The movie portrays Cruise as a troubled, flawed character who is merely a spectator to the events that unfold, not some flawless messiah that comes to single handedly shape the culture with his whiteness.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

What China needs to do is start showing some of their home grown movies in america and all over the world like we do. Translate them and start making asian stars.

That's a niche, most people don't want to watch a subtitled movie or bad dubbing.

 

[JeTmAn81]

That's a niche, most people don't want to watch a subtitled movie or bad dubbing.

That's true, but then how did American films become so popular in non English speaking countries?

 

[MisterR]

Presumably some explorer of color from the same continent and not one from a place almost 12,000km away?



Can people not see how the lack of an answer to this is the EXACT fucking problem she's talking about?? It's a self perpetuating cycle of white dudes being that "only bankable actors"

And before you respond, I always know how you guys will argue.

1. Studios are a business, they have to make money.
2. Why should a studio take a financial risk?
3. We should maintain the status quo

Yeah you won't explicitly say #3, but it's the implication when you use #1 or #2

That's fine that you know the answer already. It doesn't make 1 and 2 any less valid. Yes, it would be awesome for someone to try it, but if it flops big time people are going to lose jobs and studios could go under.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I think there is one key distinction you're missing here, though: to many of us, America is our "home country," so the outright rejection of us by media feels like we are being rejected by our home.

That was literally my point. America is home to Asian Americans versus native Asians in Asia which is why they view the issue of representation differently

That's fine that you know the answer already. It doesn't make 1 and 2 any less valid. Yes, it would be awesome for someone to try it, but if it flops big time people are going to lose jobs and studios could go under.

She addressed this. Tons of movies with white leads have bombed. Tons of movies have been cast with unknown white leads over somewhat established minority leads and bombed. The idea of a movie bombing causing this mass job loss and damage to the studio ONLY seems to be brought up when someone suggested a minority get cast

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

Where do you think the Chinese get the idea that you need a white actor to be bankable from? Everyone here thinks they have some kinda "Gotcha!" moment pointing out that this is a Chinese directed movie, when it really doesn't change a damn thing and doesn't discredit anything Wu has said.

 

[Ridley327]

It kind of is. If you're taking liberties with a real person's gender then race should be an even smaller hurdle, unless they just have to be white

It's specifically about an American citizen sheltering thousands of refugees during the Rape of Nanking. I get what you're saying, but I don't think keeping the stand-in white is much of a problem with the perspective that they're trying to hold onto.

There was another film that was released around the same time that covered similar subject matter called City of Life and Death, though from the perspective of the survivors of the Battle of Nanking as they try to survive the occupation. If I'm reading it right, that one does use the real life figure, though she's not a main character.

 

[Bergerac]

how can someone be racist against their own race?

Well, I guess you haven't been on any porn sites for the past decade.

 

[D i Z]

The story seems to be set-up based on some kind of exploring force stumbling across the Wall.

In that regard my hypothetical was, if Damon wasn't cast in that role, how are you going to do that casting? What's the "optimal" choice?

Could be anyone really. Matt is there for that international box office draw, no doubt. But they could have gone in any direction with that script to allow for the dynamics of a POC being front and center. They might even tap into higher profits if the star was from Bollywood, and there would be something more authentic to draw from, just not as interesting for the Western hemisphere. The problem is there is no clear solution to this because no one will change the model to include anyone else.
They could promote the shit out of it here, but they basically didn't want to bother to trying that. It would have been riskier, but that's her point. The safe money is the status quo money. And without a willingness to take risk, these tropes will never die.


Edit:

Idris Elba comes to mind. 1000 time more charming and interesting than Damon. Also multicultural in background and awareness. Could play a POC from just about anywhere in the world, particularly any nation close enough to make sense. Western audience bankable. I wasn't sure how he would go over in China, but then I remembered that Pacific Rim was a massive hit there.
I bet if we put our mind to it we could come up with a solid list of female/male POC leads as well that would go over in a big way.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

It's specifically about an American citizen sheltering thousands of refugees during the Rape of Nanking. I get what you're saying, but I don't think keeping the stand-in white is much of a problem with the perspective that they're trying to hold onto.

Well I did include the caveat unless they had to be white. I didn't mean that sarcastically

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

That's fine that you know the answer already. It doesn't make 1 and 2 any less valid. Yes, it would be awesome for someone to try it, but if it flops big time people are going to lose jobs and studios could go under.

If more minority actors got a big break then that would create loads more opportunities for tons minority actors in film and TV. Like Wu said, movies flop all the fucking time without the help of minority leads. How many studios got shut down? How many hack writers and directors are still working today?

 

[Cronox]

I mean if you want to just lazily regurgitate a 13 year old narrative then go right ahead but the film does not feature a white savior, it's quite the opposite. Cruise's character comes to actively reject western ideology and is haunted by white guilt for his participation in the massacre of native americans. If you want a white savior film to act as your scapegoat look to Last of the Mohicans, Avatar or Dances with Wolves, movies where it takes a white man's enlightenment to lead the troubled 'savages' to prosperity, not one where a white man comes to deeply love a culture but is ultimately powerless in preventing it's destruction.

The movie portrays Cruise as a troubled, flawed character who is merely a spectator to the events that unfold, not some flawless messiah that comes to single handedly shape the culture with his whiteness.

This is hilarious. Man, Paul Mooney really fucked that film over with that bit on Chapelle's Show. More people should watch The Last Samurai, I remember liking it.

 

[numble]

Sorry Constance. You're great, but "don't blame the film makers"? The notion that multi-millionaires from the world's second most powerful country lack agency in this regard just doesn't wash. They're leveraging an asset and that's it. I guarantee the Chinese film industry sees having reached a position where Matt Damon is their employee as a victory.

This is a Hollywood production, even though the director is Chinese. The movie is mainly English, it is conceived, written and produced my Americans. If the Chinese film industry were looking for a "victory" in casting a white actor, the Flowers of War with Christian Bale might be a better one, since that is a mainly Mandarin film (I think) and not produced/written by Americans (I think).

 

[hodayathink]

And run by a white guy, Peter Loehr, who came from the Beijing branch of CAA which is an American talent agency. The Great Wall went into production way before Legendary was bought out by the Chinese. The original director attached to this project was Ed Zwick... famous for... you guessed it... The Last Samurai.

Also directed Blood Diamond, a film about African conflict diamonds starring Leo Dicaprio.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

You're doing a lot of stereotyping. Here is a popular Japanese actor that has appeared in many blockbuster Chinese films:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi_Kaneshiro

Korean actors and actresses are even more prevalent.

I mean, Takeshi is kind of an example of the national conflict I was wondering about. He's a Taiwanese-Japanese actor, who's lived out much of his career in Hong Kong cinema. If you read interviews of his, quite typically, he talks about growing up how he felt like an outsider going between a Japanese school and a Taiwanese neighborhood.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Also directed Blood Diamond, a film about African conflict diamonds starring Leo Dicaprio.

I'm sensing a trend...but I'm waiting for posters to call it a coincidence before I blast them for it

Edit: Ed Zwick also directed Glory! You know the American Civil War movie starring Matthew Broderick

 

[Ratrat]

I dont get it. China has made MANY, MANY blockbusters starring Asian leads but all hell breaks loose because they got Matt Damon for one movie? Why does this one movie have to shoulder the blame of decades of Hollywood fucking up?

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Eastern Asian are the most racist group of people and most of them don't even think there is anything wrong with being racist.
The Japanese and Chinese are probably the most racist of the bunch.
In fact, the news that Chinese people actually went out casting a white guy as the main character should be considered to be progressive.

 

[andythinkpad]

What China needs to do is start showing some of their home grown movies in america and all over the world like we do. Translate them and start making asian stars.

They already do that, at least in New York. Both Chinese and Indian movies. They are not played in the art house cinemas. They are in regular mainstream cinemas.

 

[Ratrat]

Eastern Asian are the most racist group of people and most of them don't even think there is anything wrong with being racist.
The Japanese and Chinese are probably the most racist of the bunch.
In fact, the news that Chinese people actually went out casting a white guy as the main character should be considered to be progressive.

Shut up.

I mean, Takeshi is kind of an example of the national conflict I was wondering about. He's a Taiwanese-Japanese actor, who's lived out much of his career in Hong Kong cinema. If you read interviews of his, quite typically, he talks about growing up how he felt like an outsider going between a Japanese school and a Taiwanese neighborhood.

Him feeling like an outsider as a child doesn't cancel out the fact he's popular in both countries.

 

[D i Z]

I mean if you want to just lazily regurgitate a 13 year old narrative then go right ahead but the film does not feature a white savior, it's quite the opposite. Cruise's character comes to actively reject western ideology and is haunted by white guilt for his participation in the massacre of native americans. If you want a white savior film to act as your scapegoat look to Last of the Mohicans, Avatar or Dances with Wolves, movies where it takes a white man's enlightenment to lead the troubled 'savages' to prosperity, not one where a white man comes to deeply love a culture but is ultimately powerless in preventing it's destruction.

The movie portrays Cruise as a troubled, flawed character who is merely a spectator to the events that unfold, not some flawless messiah that comes to single handedly shape the culture with his whiteness.

Miss the part where he was the last surviving warrior lord from a clan of the most respected warrior lords, even though he was adopted into it? He was respected and valued enough in his position to pass the last vestige of that linage onto the Emperor himself! He literally saved the historic value and name of the clan by completing the mission. Convince the Emperor to not adopt the Imperialistic methods of the outside world, and not to abandon the traditions they held at a higher value than life. He did that by example himself.

Eastern Asian are the most racist group of people and most of them don't even think there is anything wrong with being racist.
The Japanese and Chinese are probably the most racist of the bunch.
In fact, the news that Chinese people actually went out casting a white guy as the main character should be considered to be progressive.

Uh huh. Had to be the first didn't you?

 

[boiled goose]

how can someone be racist against their own race?

Uhh.. You don't understand racism.

 

[SilentRacoon]

And run by a white guy, Peter Loehr, who came from the Beijing branch of CAA which is an American talent agency. The Great Wall went into production way before Legendary was bought out by the Chinese. The original director attached to this project was Ed Zwick... famous for... you guessed it... The Last Samurai.

What's wrong with The Last Samurai again?

Meh I see nothing wrong with this move, he is the "face" of the movie simply for the mass appeal, him and Dafoe are the only 2 white actors credited for the film.

I have seen plenty of Chinese epic fantasy flicks with a full Asian casting, so having at least one with a foreigner actor is interesting.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Could be anyone really. Matt is there for that international box office draw, no doubt. But they could have gone in any direction with that script to allow for the dynamics of a POC being front and center. They might even tap into higher profits if the star was from Bollywood, and there would be something more authentic to draw from, just not as interesting for the Western hemisphere. The problem is there is no clear solution to this because no one will change the model to include anyone else.
They could promote the shit out of it here, but they basically didn't want to bother to trying that. It would have been riskier, but that's her point. The safe money is the status quo money. And without a willingness to take risk, these tropes will never die.

No doubt Damon is there for that. I think he's also there for a domestic Chinese draw though too, and that's something interesting to consider.

Edit:

Idris Elba comes to mind. 1000 time more charming and interesting than Damon. Also multicultural in background and awareness. Could play a POC from just about anywhere in the world, particularly any nation close enough to make sense. Western audience bankable. I wasn't sure how he would go over in China, but then I remembered that Pacific Rim was a massive hit there.
I bet if we put our mind to it we could come up with a solid list of female/male POC leads as well that would go over in a big way.

Actually, I think Elba would have been great for an international draw, and not as much for a domestic draw. Again, interesting to consider.

 

[JeTmAn81]

I'm sensing a trend...but I'm waiting for posters to call it a coincidence before I blast them for it

Edit: Ed Zwick also directed Glory! You know the American Civil War movie starring Matthew Broderick

Do we get to hear why a Civil War movie which features a white man is an example of a racist trope now? BTW it was Denzel that got the Oscar for that one.

 

[PdotMichael]

PRC Chinese are not going to be looking at it the same way that Chinese Americans do. They have likely never had a conversation about representation or examined it because Chinese representation in Chinese movies isn't an issue. To a Chinese movie exec it's probably "matt damon = money" you try to bring this issue up and "its just one movie" but to Chinese Americans this is every movie. Chinese people paying for it doesn't mean it isn't perpetuating a racist image.

Wouldn't the question be why China should care about Chinese Americans?

I mean it sucks for those people that Hollywood ignores them but a Chinese company isn't the right address or obliged to fix American problems. After all Chinese movie companies produce movies with Chinese actors after all.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The movie was conceived by the white CEO of Legendary, I believe. Script is written by white writers. It isn't exactly as Chinese as you would think.

Is that even relevant if Matt Damon was hired by a Chinese company to be in a Chinese movie? China sees Matt Damon and goes, "That's a big movie star, let's get him in our movie" and they do that. There's a certain appeal that "legitimizes" a movie if you give it a "big" star. There were comments from Japanese citizens about how they believe Ghost in the Shell is being taken seriously just because they ponied up the cash for ScarJo.

 

[Ratrat]

Wouldn't the question why China should care about Chinese Americans?

I mean it sucks for those people that Hollywood ignores them but a Chinese company isn't the right address or obliged to fix American problems.

Exactly. The amount of Chinese or Japanese films with foreign leads is absolutely tiny. Complaining about this is basically saying they should never exist.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

In all fairness, didn't the director say the writers were Hollywood writers?



This is a terrible example, because that film was based on actual historical events and Bale played an actual historical figure. Very different to just plonking a random white guy in a fantasy epic set in ancient China.

I wasn't comparing that film to this, in term of ridiculousness, only that it was another film from the same director and a Chinese production team that grabbed a very big Hollywood actor be the face of their Chinese film. (and personally, I thought it was a misguided, overly sentimental film that focused far too much on Bale's character, no doubt to broaden it's appeal elsewhere).