Chairmanchuck
Member
That korean guy who played that Alien in this korean drama from 2 years ago e.g.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Constance Wu says Matt Damon's Great Wall perpetuates 'racist myth'
- Thread starter UnemployedVillain
- Start date
- Status
That korean guy who played that Alien in this korean drama from 2 years ago e.g.
I'll admit, I'm not understanding your post. Did you mean to put a negative qualifier in your middle sentence?
Assuming that's the case, I think we are more in agreement. My point was when you start off with 77:1 ratio, there's just no chance when you then factor in racism issues.
Because there is no racism concept in Asia. You can call what we are doing as racism coming from western world perspective and history. But Asia in general doesbt really have the problem of mix race society ( because it is mostly homogenious ) and we never have much history with other race/country as well ( most of the time it was us trying to kill each other). Hence it is hard to force the society to care too much about it. All the time I heard about racism always come from westerner yelling at what we are doing.
As some people say. Nobody here care. Its the same situation with american studio cast white guy for Death Note. Only people who make noise is asian american ( who didnt get cast ) or some people who live in america. You ask general japanese people and they dont even feel anything. It is a general acceptance here that the west dominate movie industry and white actor has more world recognition. So having popular white male lead actor in the movie seems sensible in terms of business. And people just want to go watch movie for fun not humitarian reason. Again nobody care.
It is like this becausw this is the current situation in the market. It doest mean thing wont change in the future. Chinese company just start getting their hand into world movie industry now. So yes they will try to get recognition first. As soon as it dominate the market trust me you will see asian face everywhere. Dont need to rush it.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
SARFT, 4 Chinese investors, Legendary, and Universal.
It doesn't matter who wanted to make the movie, it matters who made the movie, supplied the cash, and why / how Matt Damon was cast. It appears the director and Matt had planned to make a movie together and with Matt's casting schedule this was it.
China doesn't have the same issues with Hollywood and frankly they don't need to care.
Where are all these movies that China keeps making with white leads, and why are you forgetting the ones where they HAVE cast actors from Korea, Japan, Taiwan etc?
Its an original story that is going to be as flattering as possible. At least with a Chinese director it wont be the kind embarrassing abomination that was 47 Ronin and The Wolverine.
It's about a Chinese production company wanting to work in Hollywood and having to subjugate themselves to the BS Hollywood system that's broken as shit: if they want to get the movie in theaters they need a white famous person to open it. It's shitty because the US filmmaking machine is shitty.
The Chinese company doesn't care how it looks, though. They want to open doors and make money through co-productions and US distribution and that means, instead of setting a standard, they lower themselves because making those connections is more important to them.
I was working with a Chinese production company who had a script. The first thing they wanted to do, seeing as they were financing most of it, is partner up with a US distributor and studio, then hire the most famous white dude they could to star (ahead of the major Chinese actor already attached) and a western director to direct. They didn't care how it looked, they wanted to open doors.
The Chinese company doesn't care how it looks, though. They want to open doors and make money through co-productions and US distribution and that means, instead of setting a standard, they lower themselves because making those connections is more important to them.
I was working with a Chinese production company who had a script. The first thing they wanted to do, seeing as they were financing most of it, is partner up with a US distributor and studio, then hire the most famous white dude they could to star (ahead of the major Chinese actor already attached) and a western director to direct. They didn't care how it looked, they wanted to open doors.
Chairmanchuck
Member
The ban is just on paper. Watch chinese tv and see thousands of those.
Same with gay scenes and whatever.
The biggest show in China right now is a talkshow by a transgendered person who (also) talks about problems Lbgt people face in China.
Messofanego
Banned
Great point.
When was the last western movie with an Asian lead? Rush Hour lol? It's ridiculous. There are plenty of Asian actors, a lot of them mostly on TV that could transition well to feature films. If Hollywood execs and casting agents allowed them to, if they took a chance.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
the_batman
Banned
you don't think it's the other way around? add a famous hollywood actor to appeal more to chinese people? i wouldn't think americans would give any fucks for a movie about saving the great wall of china even if it had Damon.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I would also think they added Damon because of both markets.
American actors get more and more important in Chinese movies and dramas. They always want to have one in their shows.
Afaik Martian was also quite popular in China, so the Chinese know now who Matt Damon is.
Then make five-- five damn movies starring asian-americans next year instead of the usual c-list white actor dreck.
If even one of those movies is successful, FUCKING BOOM.
BANKABLE LEAD.
This isn't even hard, Hollywood is just goddamn fucking scared of troglodytic racists!
Harold and Kumar
Slumdog Millionaire
Life of Pi
Jungle Book
...hmmm Hollywood loves India I guess.
Well then we're just perpetuaing international racism. The US film industry is directly responsible for globally making white people into the heroes.
God bless Harold and Kumar and God bless John Cho.
He even makes out with the hottest woman in that movie. AND he doesn't know karate.
The one example and one actor.
starchild excalibur
Member
I agree with her post, but it should be more directed at the consumers of films like these. If you don't want to see bullshit on screen it takes viewers overwhelmingly rejecting that bullshit, preferably in favor of something else. Execs respond to money. Films are a business first and a lens through we reflect life second.
No matter how much your twitter post may get retweeted, if people still come out during that opening weekend and vote with their dollars the message will fall on deaf ears.
No matter how much your twitter post may get retweeted, if people still come out during that opening weekend and vote with their dollars the message will fall on deaf ears.
SilentRacoon
Member
Actually nvm.
What was the last asian-american-led film that failed at the box office? They don't even get a chance.
Sure they would, a movie for the Chinese speaking market.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Execs react with whatever the fuck they want to. Don't get it twisted. Where were all the minority lead comedies after Harold and Kumar's success? Where are all the minority ensemble action movies after Fast & Furious' successes? It's a bullshit copout answer. Successful movies with minorities are ignored constantly. The only time they get attention is when they bomb so some exec can point their finger and justify casting white people in everything
Conversely when a movie with a star studded predominantly white cast bombs, "Shit happens"
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I was even talking about a plethora of white leads in Chinese film. Never said any of that. You're also ignoring that I'm coming from a position that this was a Hollywood draft, with Hollywood producers, an original Hollywood director with a track record of white washing cultural epic features was involved with the process from jump. And all put together in a Hollywood production house and editing bays. I'm not talking about what the Chinese film industry is doing for representation. I'm talking about the Hollywood industry and their revulsion at casting leads that aren't white male for ethnic feature films. What part of this do you not get yet?
Vigilant Walrus
Member
The problem is more that every time they bring over a Asian star, they rarely do well. Look at Jet Li.
Jet Li is a fantastic martial artist, legendary action star and actually has good action chops, but once they brought him over on the Hollywood block. Those films didn't even reached his Hong Kong films to the heel.
And it's not because he cannot do english based films justice. When he was let loose in Unleashed / Danny the Dog, he was awesome. I was blown away that acting wise he could hold himself against Morgan Freeman and Hoskins.
But that wasn't a Hollywood film.
Hollywood wants to contain and control. The producers are often egomaniacs and don't understand. When they want to remake Oldboy, it's not that they could give any fucks about Chan Wook-Park or Korean cinema. They are just doing classic American Exceptionalism, of taking from other cultures and making it their own. They'll take others stuff and do their own spin on it.
Europeans have always been salty because they feel, European star filmmakers sold out to the Americans more than a hundred years ago, and that was the end of it.
One really has to understand that there already is being an increased pandering to their marked. China box office have saved a lot of films blockbusters from being flops, and we've seen films with added fan service just for the chinese. As their market becomes more and more, important, everyone hopes for that Pacific Rim title, because they love that.
Should have given it to Stehen Chow. The Mermaid was massive enough with no recognisable star to speak of. The whole effort of The Great Wall feels misguided, there will be better big movies from and about China in the next year than that.
And why would Chinese actors come over here nowadays. Asian Americans would a lot better trying their luck over there, just look at Daniel Wu and Maggie Q getting their break in HK before heading home.
I don't think they would because you wouldn't need to spend that amount of money for a blockbuster for the Chinese speaking market. This is a case of inflated costs because of inflated expectations. The only reason this film exists is because Chinese companies are trying to make a breakout blockbuster hit using a Chinese setting and a well known Chinese director, in western markets. Which is why the writers are westerners, the entire film is in English, three of the top stars are known western actors, and the budget is 135 million dollars.
If this is were a Chinese blockbuster ala John Woo's Red Cliff or Chow's Mermaid, it would cost way less, be far less controversial, and make a ton more money without ever having to touch the western market in a big way. But that's not the business strategy here. I mean, I think it's a stupid as fuck business strategy which won't work, but that's the thinking behind it. Lol.
harold and kumar?
milkham
Member
I was originally writing this as a pm to orthodoxy but I figured I'd just post in the thread anyway
You're right that it may not be a perfect fit [for the white savior trope], and when you're working with Matt Damon you don't tell him he's going to be foreigner #2 in the movie unless you are Kevin Smith, but I wonder if all this calculus going on in the thread about who payed for what, who decided this, who wrote that really matters.
The end result is Matt Damon, leading a film about the great wall of china, in china. Is using this movie to pose the question "Why can't Hollywood try a POC?" wrong to such a degree that we should be looking up how Constance Wu and Zhang Yimu grew up? Counting Chinese names in the production credits? Should Constance Wu wait for the perfect example to bring it up? I'm sure you agree that there is a problem with Asian American representation in hollywood, when is the right time to talk about it?
I feel like we're just arguing about minutiae.
You're right that it may not be a perfect fit [for the white savior trope], and when you're working with Matt Damon you don't tell him he's going to be foreigner #2 in the movie unless you are Kevin Smith, but I wonder if all this calculus going on in the thread about who payed for what, who decided this, who wrote that really matters.
The end result is Matt Damon, leading a film about the great wall of china, in china. Is using this movie to pose the question "Why can't Hollywood try a POC?" wrong to such a degree that we should be looking up how Constance Wu and Zhang Yimu grew up? Counting Chinese names in the production credits? Should Constance Wu wait for the perfect example to bring it up? I'm sure you agree that there is a problem with Asian American representation in hollywood, when is the right time to talk about it?
I feel like we're just arguing about minutiae.
No. bloody. way, Chinese speaking market films simply don't get/need that much production money, here is this film
which features multiple huge Chinese stars and is marketed pretty heavily, and last I heard only banked $104 Million US.
Not to mention that Matt Damon is a dubious choice for this considering his own.... reluctance to grasp the dynamics of these situations, and his condescending response and position about cultural authenticity being secondary to doing things the Hollywood way. Or rather his way. This might not have gotten such a sharp response if it wasn't him of all people. It wouldn't have been any less valid. It just might not have been a five star eyebrow raiser.
Edited to add a link to a video that covers why Damon's involvement might spark a reaction for a topic like this.
Edited to add a link to a video that covers why Damon's involvement might spark a reaction for a topic like this.
UnemployedVillain
Member
No. bloody. way, Chinese speaking market films simply don't get that much production money, here is this film
which features multiple huge Chinese stars and is marketed pretty heavily, and last I heard only banked $104 Million US.
That might have more to do with the fact it was probably subtitled, which makes it a harder sell to a general western audience (at least in the US. I'm sure in Europe that's more common). The movie in question in this thread is in English
And marketed well? By what standards? I'd venture to say most people in here have never even heard of the movie
DontBeThatGuy
Member
The Man with the Iron Fists also sucked.
It's not about how much they "get", it's about how much things actually cost to make in a market. That's what people don't seem to understand. You're making the wrong sort of comparison here. Chinese films don't get less production money because they can't make money. Stephen Chow's Mermaid has made over 550 million in China alone now. That's a blockbuster. If they needed 100+ million to make a film like that, you bet your ass they would be able to get the funding. But they don't. If a movie is only for the Chinese audience, there is no expectation that they need to spend that much to get asses in seats.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Stephen Chow only directs what he writes based on everything he's done up to this point so he wouldn't have made it anyway.
Very much this.
but why
UnemployedVillain
Member
RZA is just a rapper who likes martial arts and Eli Roth is...Eli Roth. Cut them so slack
ffejeromdiks
Banned
Actually enjoyed Man with the Iron Fists, thought it was pulpy light fun...but that tagline "You can't spell Kung Fu without F & U" has got to be one of the worst taglines ever lmao.
Eh its been a while but isnt it basically white people suck and come to wreck shit and Cruise ends up with respect for their culture?
Okay, so its not a Chinese film. Its an American-Chinese film. So what? It should still look like the million other Chinese historic epics with only Chinese actors speaking in Chinese? We have Japanese actor doing Ghengis Khan and Korean actors in Three Kingdoms or whatever. Also Hollywood made The Last Emperor, Memoirs of a Geisha, Slumdog Millionaire didn't they? For all we know this will be a Last Samurai type asskissing fetish film about an exotic and superior culture *cough* Shogun *cough*. Because I dont think Zhang Yimou and the Chinese government will settle for anything less.
edit: Man with the Iron Fists was fun! Lucy Liu was especially awesome.
Why is it misplaced criticism? This is a Chinese funded production trying to be a Hollywood blockbuster. It is perpetrating the belief that to be a Hollywood blockbuster you must have western leads regardless of the setting. That is the criticism.
And that is the problem that she is trying to illustrate, and everyone is bending over backwards to ignore. It's like everyone has an opinion about this, but not directly because no one wants to actually acknowledge what she's saying and why she find this to be problematic. You and I are in agreement about what the Government will allow here though. That's a concern that hasn't really gotten much discussion yet, but isn't salient to the content of her complaint.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Again this isn't true. A bomb with a white lead is just business as usual in Hollywood.
Do you honestly think of this bombs Matt Damon is going to have trouble getting hired? That the studio will stop trying to appeal to the West? That they won't look to yet another white actor next time they want a Hollywood star?
walking fiend
Member
I think she is totally right; yet, I have given up on things becoming less racist, whether it is in the news, in the politics, in the entertainment. Nope, just not gonna happen anytime soon. Until almost 50 years ago, white people had almost all the world directly or indirectly colonized. And right now the major markets for any kind of good is within majorly white countries. Things are not gonna change as long as the global economy and politics is so thoroughly controlled by white people.
Props to her for at least bringing the issue to a conscious level.
Props to her for at least bringing the issue to a conscious level.
Eh, Last Samurai and Shogun are about painting a fantastical, fetishtic view of Japan and making it the most awesomest thing ever. They are not about white supremacy over poc.
Without seeing the film, we dont know if Damon is a bystander to the awesome Chinese warrior spirit or their saviour. Both are annoying tropes but only the later is hugely problematic.
walking fiend
Member
Last Samurai is about how a white man can be a better samurai than Japanese men.
What are "these movies" though? Films about Asian cultures and places with white leads? Are there any Hollywood films about Asian cultures and places without white leads? No? So basically if the mindset doesn't change, there will simply be no Hollywood films about Asian cultures and places! Yay! What a victory! Let's not make a fuss and just vote with our wallet. Having a conversation about it would just annoy white people and make them feel uncomfortable! Better for us to not be heard or seen! Can't have that!
- Status