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DC Rebirth |OT| It's not a reboot, and it always was [SPOILERS for Rebirth #1]

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As brief as this week's comics were I'm probably gonna do the same as you and get most of the next ones. I'm not interested in Action either since I thought the first three issues of Lois & Clark were really boring. Tomasi's Superman feels like filler right now but it is still better written to me.

Tomasi I trust and the idea of elder statesman Superman having to navigate a universe that distrusts him because he's not the other guy is interesting. Superman as a dad with Lois as his wife? Eh. I'll skip Jurgens' book because Lois and Clark did absolutely nothing for me.
 
I think my main complaint is that it was collected poorly. As far as I can tell, the omnibus was released in 2013, while the Justice League TPB was released in 2004. I wasn't reading single issues back then, so I came upon the JL collection in the 2000s and had trouble telling how it fit into Morrison's JLA run.

If I'm counting the number of issues listed on Wikipedia correctly, there are 40 issues that are part of 1M, only 37* of which seem to be available on Comixology.

*Comixology lists 39, but that includes the later Superman/Batman tie-in.

Maybe it's because I didn't read the tie ins, and just the main story in the TPB, so I really only should be commenting on that. I thought the main overall story was just pure comic book fun. Everything and the kitchen sink in a satisfying way.
 
Didn't one of the Snyder Batman annuals reveal
That the arkham doctor was actually Joker? or atleast detail it. It seemed pretty important. Think it was the third annual.
 

Ahasverus

Member
Pretty eh Superman/Batman comics. They should have knocked ihem out of the park, i'm not sure if new readers are picking them after those first issues.
 
Didn't one of the Snyder Batman annuals reveal
That the arkham doctor was actually Joker? or atleast detail it. It seemed pretty important. Think it was the third annual.

The reveal wasn't in the annual. It was in Endgame. But it makes the Annual very cool to read in hindsight.
 
A cursory examination leads me to believe that Booster Gold #1,000,000 is one of the "missing" two. It's available on Comixology, but not listed with the rest of the story arc. Probably just an oversight.

Pretty sure Booster Gold like Superman / Batman is a call back, I'm almost positive Booster Gold couldn't have held a book at the time.
 

Ross61

Member
I didn't come into with wild expectations for these first Rebirth titles. With that being said greatly enjoyed them.
 
Maybe it's because I didn't read the tie ins, and just the main story in the TPB, so I really only should be commenting on that. I thought the main overall story was just pure comic book fun. Everything and the kitchen sink in a satisfying way.

IIRC, what occurred in the tie-in issues was summarized briefly between issues in the Justice League: One Million TPB.

So unlike modern events where the tie-ins aren't integral to the overall story, it felt like there were important events taking place off-panel.

For example:

"Martian Manhunter's dead! Wow!"
*events of Martian Manhunter #1,000,000 occur*
"Huh, Martian Manhunter wasn't dead and now he showed up right at the end to save everyone."

Anyway, I suppose it's a moot point now that you can either buy the omnibus or all the singles on Comixology.

Edit:
Pretty sure Booster Gold like Superman / Batman is a call back, I'm almost positive Booster Gold couldn't have held a book at the time.

I think BG is considered part of the event on Wikipeida because they used the time travel trope of the series to retroactively participate in the event, whereas the Superman/Batman was a cameo for Superman 1M and Batman 1M, but Comixology places it with the story arc.
 
Pretty eh Superman/Batman comics. They should have knocked ihem out of the park, i'm not sure if new readers are picking them after those first issues.

I haven't bought but maybe a handful of modern Superman comics over the past 5 years and I'll definitely be hopping on board with this one.
 
Batman was pretty boring

Is nu52 Supes expected to be dead for good?(or at least a long while, no one
is dead for good)

one of the mysteries in rebirth was the origins of new 52 superman and clark white, so I doubt it's the last we've seen of new 52 superman, especially since all the new 52 characters are the post crisis characters.
 

Ahasverus

Member
one of the mysteries in rebirth was the origins of new 52 superman and clark white, so I doubt it's the last we've seen of new 52 superman, especially since all the new 52 characters are the post crisis characters.
I thought the current Superman was the post crisis - pre nu52 one?
 
Comics shop in town was out of Green Arrow. Boo. Picked up Batman though. Grabbed the variant cover, but I think I like the standard covers of most of the other ones better, so I'll probably end up swapping out at some point.
 

Luigi87

Member
I think the biggest thing that has me hyped about Rebirth is all the twice monthly releases. Much easier to remain invested vs. monthly releases, as long as quality is maintained.
 

Ahasverus

Member
he was, but rebirth shows that these are the post crisis characters with 10 years gone, I think they remark about the true origins of Superman in one of the pages.
I'm.. not sure if i'm following you. Would you care to xplain it to me please? Because the nu52 one seems deader than dead, and that was supposed to be the real superman.. wasn't it? That's why the old Superman keeps reffering to "the superman of this world"
 

Proc

Member
As someone who has been recently turned onto comics by sandman and snyder's Batman new52 run, I can't help but feel let down by the brevity of today's releases. I still need to read green arrow but I think I'll be passing on the next green lanterns. I'll give Batman and Superman a longer shot but I'll be tapping out after 5 if it continues this way.

Hoping wonderwoman and flash don't debut similarly.
 

Ross61

Member
I'm.. not sure if i'm following you. Would you care to xplain it to me please? Because the nu52 one seems deader than dead, and that was supposed to be the real superman.. wasn't it? That's why the old Superman keeps reffering to "the superman of this world"
New 52 Superman is dead. At least for now. Post Crisis Supes think that because he's risen from death before that New 52 will also. But as we seen in Rebirth, both Supermen(?) may not be who they think they are.
 

Ahasverus

Member
New 52 Superman is dead. At least for now. Post Crisis Supes think that because he's risen from death before that New 52 will also. But as we seen in Rebirth, both Supermen(?) may not be who they think they are.
Oh, I see, mistery awaits. That creates a issue with Lois I think (So there are 2 Loises around) but seems intriguing enough. Thank you.
 
It's not post crisis at all, it's new 52 with 10 years gone.

What I mean to say is that this is the same earth as the one before flashpoint, but with 10 years gone. This is the same Wally as pre-flashpoint, and this is his earth. There are infinite earths though, so infinite possibilities. Previously it was believed that this Earth was completely different from post crisis earth, and the characters were new, with post-crisis still floating around somewhere as another universe. But these are the same characters with 10 years taken away, as Wally remembers all the events that happened to them (COIE and the Flash Family).


I'm.. not sure if i'm following you. Would you care to xplain it to me please? Because the nu52 one seems deader than dead, and that was supposed to be the real superman.. wasn't it? That's why the old Superman keeps reffering to "the superman of this world"

Clark White Superman is the current Superman, he is from another universe where Lois and him had a kid, presumably a very similar universe to post crisis.

However, the LOSH Member (Saturn Girl) said Superman was going to return (referring to the new 52 one assumedly). Then Mr. Oz told Clark White that he and New 52 Superman are not who they think they are. So it's a continuing plot line, I doubt we've seen the last of new 52 Supes.
 

Ashby

Member
What I mean to say is that this is the same earth as the one before flashpoint, but with 10 years gone. This is the same Wally as pre-flashpoint, and this is his earth. There are infinite earths though, so infinite possibilities. Previously it was believed that this Earth was completely different from post crisis earth, and the characters were new, with pre-crisis still floating around somewhere as another universe. But these are the same characters with 10 years taken away, as Wally remembers all the events that happened to them (COIE and the Flash Family).

Do we have editorial confirmation of this?
 
I've read Batman, Superman and Green Arrow issues so far and I enjoyed all of them. Green Arrow was definitely the standout though. Can't wait for more.
 
Do we have editorial confirmation of this?

We've had very little editorial confirmation about anything much regardihg wth is going on regarding past events and timelines post Rebirth beyond Nu52 unless otherwise noted.

Wally's behaviour in Rebirth sort of supports the above though, he starts with post-Crisis/ pre-Nu52 memories and then gets written into the Nu52 timeline with an appropriate back story which he and Barry then remember. Which isn't a thing that normally happens when someone enters a different multi-verse but sort of works for a rewritten timeline. Otoh Clark White seems to be the post-Crisis Superman and didn't get rewritten so who knows.
 

TTOOLL

Member
I'm far from an avid reader so help me understand what happened to Superman, please.
What killed that young Superman? Who is this bearded Superman and why has he been hiding?
 

Sou Da

Member
I've read Batman, Superman and Green Arrow issues so far and I enjoyed all of them. Green Arrow was definitely the standout though. Can't wait for more.
GA had a better "1st" issue than Batman/Superman, Kevin Smith is probably gonna cry on his podcast again.
 
I'm far from an avid reader so help me understand what happened to Superman, please.
What killed that young Superman? Who is this bearded Superman and why has he been hiding?

Okay. The young Superman is New 52/Post-Flashpoint Superman. This guy:
2396527-superman_new_52.jpg

He lost his powers in his own book and getting them back corrupted his cells and yadda yadda. He was living on borrowed time and in the last fight shown in Superman: Rebirth #1, he gave it his last shot and died. His body turned into stone or something.

In the meantime, the Superman from before Flashpoint had been chilling in the New 52 universe, with his wife Lois and son, Jonathan. This universe already had a Superman, so he decided to leave things alone. Grew a beard, changed his name, and mostly stayed incognito.


Young Superman dies. Elder Superman realizes that this world needs a Superman. Enter new Superman, who's actually old Superman.

 
I know you should not try to apply common logic to comics and usually timelines and passage of time do not work well in decades run comics, but for someone trying to make a clean and easy to understand jumping point for new readers, the DC staff is making a mess (again) with Rebirth. No one clearly understands the timeline (i guess neither the authors).

Let´s see, we can start with 3 major timelines:

- pre-Crysis (most Silver Age characters), prior 1986;
- post-Crysis (characters we came to love) 1987-2011;
- New 52 (after Flashpoint) up to now.

Crysis was clearly a reboot, and mostly a well done one. It established the characters we love, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc.

New 52 was also a reboot, but a lousy one, with no clear plan . To be fair, Crysis was also too, even after the event in the mini-series some character seems and acts as the reboot did not happen, only months after it the monthly series started to make sense of it. But in the end it worked, and quite well.

Now Rebirth says that someone (Manhattan) stole 10 years worth of everyone. That does not make sense, N52 is not post-Crysis minus 10 years. Some characters (like Wonder Woman, Justice League) has complete different origens and formations, some characters do not even exist.

So how Barry can start remember Wally?

Make take is that N52 was a reboot, but the since a point in the Reboot 7 years have passed (since Superman started his carrear). It should have been 10 more years to make space for all the Robins, Titans, and story lines that were missing / compressed. Wally somehow survive the lost years. But he is not the post-Crysis Wally. That one had kids, right? He talked about Linda, but never about them.

But that does not make sense either. 10 more years in the heroes carreers will make then working for almost 17 years, some would be in their fourties. That is specially true for the Trinity. Again, trying to make sense of time elapse in comics...

So N52 Superman is dead. Someone using the Superman mantel for 7 years at least. But that should have been 17 if Manhattan did not act. There is another Superman around, an older one. Either the post-Crysis one or from a similar Universe. With a 10 years old child (assuming the child is the same age as Damian). Again, he should be forty. Is he? Not.....

Now we have post-Crysis story lines still cannon (a problem that started with N52), N52 rebooted characters, and somehow some very likely post-Crysis characters but that are not really post-Crysis. All around.

How to make sense of it?

And my question: was Flashpoint necessary? The post-Crysis timeline was not clean, but was not as messy as the N52 that came after.
 

Afrodium

Banned
Okay. The young Superman is New 52/Post-Flashpoint Superman. This guy:


He lost his powers in his own book and getting them back corrupted his cells and yadda yadda. He was living on borrowed time and in the last fight shown in Superman: Rebirth #1, he gave it his last shot and died. His body turned into stone or something.

In the meantime, the Superman from before Flashpoint had been chilling in the New 52 universe, with his wife Lois and son, Jonathan. This universe already had a Superman, so he decided to leave things alone. Grew a beard, changed his name, and mostly stayed incognito.



Young Superman dies. Elder Superman realizes that this world needs a Superman. Enter new Superman, who's actually old Superman.

I think this post perfectly encapsulates why comic books appear so impenetrable to outsiders. DC is doing a line-wide renumbering and to understand what is happening in the very first issue of Supeman you're expected to have an understanding of important DC events and their effects of the multiverse as well as an understanding of who New 52 and post-Crisis Superman are.
 
Not even slightly. It had some cool stories, but it was mostly just the company seeking sales rejuvenation through a line-wide reboot.

Then at least plan it better. I know about editorial divergences and so but something that affects your entire line of comics (and business) should not have taken carelessly. N52 was just an ok to writers to shoot things in the wall and see what sticks to it.

Does Superman Rebirth have any set-up for Super Sons?

Nope.
 
I think this post perfectly encapsulates why comic books appear so impenetrable to outsiders. DC is doing a line-wide renumbering and to understand what is happening in the very first issue of Supeman you're expected to have an understanding of important DC events and their effects of the multiverse as well as an understanding of who New 52 and post-Crisis Superman are.

This is actually the biggest problem with the Rebirth books. I assumed they would be a gateway into the new status quo of these books: "Here's where this character has been and here's where they're going." I though if you picked up say, "Superman: Rebirth", they'd outline the dead Superman, the incoming guy, and the general state of the Superman books.

New Super Man and Superwoman both spring out of the event around Superman's death: his powers pass on to new people. Superwoman is literally dealing with the same disease that killed Superman. But no, it's more of an emotional soliloquy by old Superman.

I thought Batman would explain Batman, Detective Comics, Batgirl, and such. That's not the case. Instead, these Rebirth books are just stories. Issue #0's for just their preceding books, leaving most of the other titles out in the cold.

Green Arrow works because it has little legwork to do, as it only really relates to Green Arrow. Green Lanterns is an edge case, because they only vaguely touch on the stories of Simon and Jessica.

Does Superman Rebirth have any set-up for Super Sons?

It sets up nothing except maybe Jurgen's Superman. No Luthor, no Supergirl, no Super Sons, no Superwoman, no Super Man.
 

NeonZ

Member
Clark White Superman is the current Superman, he is from another universe where Lois and him had a kid, presumably a very similar universe to post crisis.

They are from the Post-Crisis universe itself, since they're the same characters that were taken out of the timeline in the Convergence mini-series and its tie ins. Lois becoming pregnant and the birth of the child happened during Superman's Convergence tie in mini-series itself though.

I think this post perfectly encapsulates why comic books appear so impenetrable to outsiders. DC is doing a line-wide renumbering and to understand what is happening in the very first issue of Supeman you're expected to have an understanding of important DC events and their effects of the multiverse as well as an understanding of who New 52 and post-Crisis Superman are.

I'm actually surprised that they're taking this weird route. With the revelation that the New 52 is just the Post-Crisis universe modified by Manhattan, I thought the Superman and Justice League Rebirth books would just be about the characters remembering Clark, and Clark realizing that he's in his own world, setting up the new #1s in a way that would allow them to mostly dodge how messy it was the set up to get him there. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. The Rebirth books apparently won't develop those plotlines at all, and they'll attempt to carry the "mystery" of the two Supermen into the upcoming books, which is just an odd choice for series that should be jumping on points.
 
I think this post perfectly encapsulates why comic books appear so impenetrable to outsiders. DC is doing a line-wide renumbering and to understand what is happening in the very first issue of Supeman you're expected to have an understanding of important DC events and their effects of the multiverse as well as an understanding of who New 52 and post-Crisis Superman are.

They are kinda stuck.

You can't just erase history because that leaves characters pale shadows of their former selves , non-existant or wildly inconstent. They tried that with the Nu52 and it worked about as badly as you'd expect (4 Robins in 6 years , things would get Rectonned for the trades, several characters were barely recognisable, etc).

They can't really patch things to clean up the mess either because whenever they do it fouls something else up due to how some of the most messed up characters timeline wise are team characters who were often involved in big events or closely involved with other characters.

What they should probably do is set up a line wide relaunch where things are in a relatively simple position such that you can drop in In Media Res without feeling lost and then make sure to recap significant weird stuff , during arcs in which it matters. As long as things are roughly how people expect they probably won't sweat the difference to much.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
I think this post perfectly encapsulates why comic books appear so impenetrable to outsiders. DC is doing a line-wide renumbering and to understand what is happening in the very first issue of Supeman you're expected to have an understanding of important DC events and their effects of the multiverse as well as an understanding of who New 52 and post-Crisis Superman are.
What happened to New52 Superman only happened over the last 5 years and the important stuff is in collections

And even all of that isn't even that important. They're fun if you want to go back and read them.

But it's just one long continuing story. A neverending battle, if you will
 
This is actually the biggest problem with the Rebirth books. I assumed they would be a gateway into the new status quo of these books: "Here's where this character has been and here's where they're going." I though if you picked up say, "Superman: Rebirth", they'd outline the dead Superman, the incoming guy, and the general state of the Superman books.

New Super Man and Superwoman both spring out of the event around Superman's death: his powers pass on to new people. Superwoman is literally dealing with the same disease that killed Superman. But no, it's more of an emotional soliloquy by old Superman.

Superman Rebirth does the first but not the second. Anyone who hasn't followed the recent stories but is generally aware of the character's lore understands
that this is the pre-nu52 Superman who fought Doomsday and was resurrected and is now replacing the 'new' Superman who recently died.
That's they really need to explain at this point IMO.

I get what you're saying about the secondary books but setting the ground for them in a 20 page story, while also bringing new readers up to speed sounds nearly impossible. There were adverts for these books in every Rebirth story so I guess DC is hoping those will hook folks.
 
Superman Rebirth does the first but not the second. Anyone who hasn't followed the recent stories but is generally aware of the character's lore understands
that this is the pre-nu52 Superman who fought Doomsday and was resurrected and is now replacing the 'new' Superman who recently died.
That's they really need to explain at this point IMO. .

Does it tackle the first one? We have multiple posters asking what happened in this thread.
 
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