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[VFXVeteran]

VFXVeteran , I'm pretty sure there's more to graphics engines than just setting some parameters higher and listing some definitions.

So you pretend like I don't develop in a graphics engine at all? That's offensive. I've developed with the DX tessellation algorithm and the OpenGL renderer settings. I modify render settings right now for our project using UE4. Why would I lie or not be a valid source of what graphics engine development is all about? You speak as if I know jack shit about this stuff.

The texture quality and variety would be impacted because not only do you only have ~5 GBs of RAM to work with, you have to hold the assets in memory for much longer since it takes that much longer to stream in assets from the HDD.

These textures aren't even 8k like in Crysis. You still aren't telling me why I can't shrink the size of my textures down?

There would also be less light probes due to performance differences, while the particle simulation would be a lot simpler with less of them on screen.

But you don't know how many light probes there are. I can assure you that there are more light probes in HZD or RDR2 than this game which is bound by corridors. Also, there is no particle simulation per se. It's just particles from sparks and fire.

The game would simply look different, the artists would be more limited in what they can create due to the constraints of the last gen machines.

You literally have NO proof of that. You are just saying it just because. I've given you valid facts as to why it can run on the PS4.

How different would it look? Well, you went through all of that napkin math while you have Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 as examples of what a current gen Souls game looks like. Does Demon's Souls look like that but in 4K 60 fps? Horizon looks great but in terms of detail it isn't close to what Souls is displaying.

That's simply not true at all. There is nothing in Demon Souls (based on their interview with DF) that does anything remotely better than HZD or any of the other 1st party games for the PS other than larger texture sizes and dynamic shadows for 1 light source. Horizon is an open world game and it's procedural foliage system is a huge milestone in graphics tech. Demon Souls doesn't even look artistically better than Horizon. I'm not sure why you guys jump on the latest thing that comes out and force it to exceed previous games. What's going to be the next end-all-be-all graphics game for the PS - Rachet?? Would your song change about the game's graphics if it were to be released on the PC??

You are welcome to your opinion, but with all due respect, you think Watch Dogs Legion is a great next gen game, when it looks almost the same as on current gen consoles just without ray tracing, so I'm not really going to take it very seriously.

You continually want to bring the PC argument into this. Why? Watch Dogs Legion on PC, like all the other PC games, look better than their console equivalents. If you want a like-for-like art comparison for what dwarfs DeS, then look no other than AC:Valhalla. It dwarfs that game in every way.

 

[VFXVeteran]

So what are you trying to achieve here?

Youre asking them to port this game to PS4 ?

Is that what youre trying to say?

I'm saying that from what I see and what has been mentioned in their interviews, Demon Souls isn't such a dramatic leap over the capabilities of the PS4 that it's not feasible to port.

 

[Gediminas]

Oh, VFXturnip is here, who would have thought.

how a man could be so much retarded to claim that PS4 could run it and it would look relatively the same. retards like that derailing thread after thread, and if you reporting, nothing happens.
i understand that entertaining is important, but this shit is beyond entertaining, especially thread after thread.

 

[VFXVeteran]

how a man could be so much retarded to claim that PS4 could run it and it would look relatively the same. retards like that derailing thread after thread, and if you reporting, nothing happens.
i understand that entertaining is important, but this shit is beyond entertaining, especially thread after thread.

First, why would my claim be a reason for a report? It gets ignored because it's a valid claim for discussion. You can't just run to the mods and say, "Hey, VFXVeteran thinks that DeS can run on a PS4 and look relatively the same, so he's bothering us.. can you ban him?" How dumb is that? Second, I've given very valid and technical reasons HOW it could be done and yet, none of you are giving me any valid technical rebuttals to state your case. You would probably believe that Horizon FW wouldn't be possible on PS4 if it wasn't announced to be a cross-gen game. That's how clueless some of you are.. *sheesh*

 

[Ulysses 31]

how a man could be so much retarded to claim that PS4 could run it and it would look relatively the same. retards like that derailing thread after thread, and if you reporting, nothing happens.
i understand that entertaining is important, but this shit is beyond entertaining, especially thread after thread.

Visuals could be downgraded to Dark Souls 3 levels then it could run on a PS4 Pro at least. The game isn't doing anything special other than the high graphical fidelity.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

how a man could be so much retarded to claim that PS4 could run it and it would look relatively the same. retards like that derailing thread after thread, and if you reporting, nothing happens.

Reporting people for stating simple technical facts seems a bit stupid by itself.
The game is gorgeous on the PS5, no question, but let`s not pretend that this couldn´t be downscaled at acceptable quality levels....
Having this as an exclusive for the PS5 was a pure marketing decision, it wasn`t because of technical limitations.

 

[Handy Fake]

First, why would my claim be a reason for a report? It gets ignored because it's a valid claim for discussion. You can't just run to the mods and say, "Hey, VFXVeteran thinks that DeS can run on a PS4 and look relatively the same, so he's bothering us.. can you ban him?" How dumb is that? Second, I've given very valid and technical reasons HOW it could be done and yet, none of you are giving me any valid technical rebuttals to state your case. You would probably believe that Horizon FW wouldn't be possible on PS4 if it wasn't announced to be a cross-gen game. That's how clueless some of you are.. *sheesh*

How about:

"It could be done on PS4 but with shitter loading times and the graphics would be nowhere near as good"?

 

[Gediminas]

Visuals could be downgraded to Dark Souls 3 levels then it could run on a PS4 Pro at least. The game isn't doing anything special other than the high graphical fidelity.

can you understand that there is no developer, publisher or ceo who would approve this kind of thing? PS4 = PS4 Pro(and i am not talking about performance).

i won't try to speculate if it is possible. (simple version : if the game is just on PS5. it means it is not possible on PS4.)

 

[GHG]

To get the game out on the PS4 at the same time that it released on the PS5 would require resources. That means either the cost of development goes up or the amount of resources that were pooled into the PS5 version would have to be reduced (inevitably resulting in a worse game).

I don't understand what the argument is, it's a PS5 game, the end. Appreciate it for what it is instead of fanticising about a worse version of the game that doesn't exist.

What a strange discussion to want to have in a review thread of all things.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

i won't try to speculate if it is possible. (simple version : if the game is just on PS5. it means it is not possible on PS4.)

That`s just nonsense. The design is from the PS3 era and graphics are scalable.....

 

[Dodkrake]

How about:

"It could be done on PS4 but with shitter loading times and the graphics would be nowhere near as good"?

If my grandma had balls she'd be my Grampa.

 

[VFXVeteran]

To get the game out on the PS4 at the same time that it released on the PS5 would require resources. That means either the cost of development goes up or the amount of resources that were pooled into the PS5 version would have to be reduced (inevitably resulting in a worse game).

I don't understand what the argument is, it's a PS5 game, the end. Appreciate it for what it is instead of fanticising about a worse version of the game that doesn't exist.

What a strange discussion to want to have in a review thread of all things.

Because it detracts from the "awe" about the game. This guy said it best ...

Visuals could be downgraded to Dark Souls 3 levels then it could run on a PS4 Pro at least. The game isn't doing anything special other than the high graphical fidelity.

 

[GHG]

That`s just nonsense. The design is from the PS3 era and graphics are scalable.....

That's always dependant on how you build/develop your assets and game engine. These things require work to ensure scalability.

To go below the floor of what was accounted for when the game was originally being developed will require a ton of optimisation work and sometimes a degree of reverse engineering.

Recent example being how the witcher 3 was ported down to the switch:

Tech Interview: How was The Witcher 3 ported to Nintendo Switch?

How did they do that? It's becoming an increasingly common question with the top-end ports arriving on Switch, with dev…

www.eurogamer.net

The developers can be forgiven for not wanting to do this kind of work for a console that has already at the end of its life cycle.

 

[Gediminas]

graphics are scalable.....

sounds like xbox PR nonsense speech line. i would like to play my RDR2 on my PS2

 

[Azurro]

You literally have NO proof of that. You are just saying it just because. I've given you valid facts as to why it can run on the PS4.

You continually want to bring the PC argument into this. Why? Watch Dogs Legion on PC, like all the other PC games, look better than their console equivalents. If you want a like-for-like art comparison for what dwarfs DeS, then look no other than AC:Valhalla. It dwarfs that game in every way.

You post authoritative posts on something you can't possible have an idea on since you don't have specifics on what their engine is doing and how it performs. I wouldn't give an opinion like that on any system until I know what it is doing, you are just arrogantly throwing your opinion around.

I bring up your previous arguments because you have all of this technical knowledge and yet come up with ridiculous opinions. The common user is incredibly impressed by what the game is doing, technical analysis channels are very impressed by it and yet you come and go "nu uh, it can be done on PS4", so to qualify such ridiculous things, I bring up your history.

I've told you many times, you want respect from the community? Then stop coming up with ridiculous opinions that are clearly colored by the fact you are an unironic PC master race dude that wants the community to worship his PC.

 

[VFXVeteran]

That's always dependant on how you build/develop your assets and game engine. These things require work to ensure scalability.

To go below the floor of what was accounted for when the game was originally being developed will require a ton of optimisation work and sometimes a degree of reverse engineering.

Recent example being how the witcher 3 was ported down to the switch:

Tech Interview: How was The Witcher 3 ported to Nintendo Switch?

How did they do that? It's becoming an increasingly common question with the top-end ports arriving on Switch, with dev…

www.eurogamer.net

The developers can be forgiven for not wanting to do this kind of work for a console that has already at the end of its life cycle.

Going from PC to Switch isn't the same contraints as going from PS5->PS4.

 

[GHG]

Because it detracts from the "awe" about the game. This guy said it best ...

So you're basically creating this discussion because you don't like the level of praise the game is receiving? Are you serious?

I like your input a lot of the time in PC specific threads but this really ain't it man.

Going from PC to Switch isn't the same contraints as going from PS5->PS4.

It was also on other consoles. Read the article I linked, it is the other console versions they often reference for the basis of the work that went into the switch version.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

sounds like xbox PR nonsense speech line. i would like to play my RDR2 on my PS2

Ridiculing what you don`t understand?
Yep, you`re a proper board dweller.

To go below the floor of what was accounted for when the game was originally being developed will require a ton of optimisation work

No one claimed this comes for free. Especially if the PS4 wasn`t accounted for when BP implemented their engine etc.
It´s work but it`s possible at an acceptable loss of quality, and that´s the point the "impossible-PS5-Powah"-fraction doesn`t get.
The hyperbole is just a bit out of control.
Aside from Ratchet & Clank we actually haven`t seen anything yet, that wouldn`t be downscalable because of (Jaguar)CPU/HDD limitations.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Oh, VFXturnip is here, who would have thought.

where?

Oh wait I have him on ignore. No problem.

 

[VFXVeteran]

You post authoritative posts on something you can't possible have an idea on since you don't have specifics on what their engine is doing and how it performs.

Just because I don't know their specific graphics engine doesn't mean that I don't know the techniques used throughout ALL graphics engines. I have a better idea about performance and what costs what than 99% of the people on GAF.

I wouldn't give an opinion like that on any system until I know what it is doing, you are just arrogantly throwing your opinion around.

It's not arrogance. DF and NXGamer don't even program graphics for a living and they can nail what's going on in a game just by watching it. The interview with BP told you this! What makes you think that someone who actual programs it and knows how much algorithms cost know?

I bring up your previous arguments because you have all of this technical knowledge and yet come up with ridiculous opinions. The common user is incredibly impressed by what the game is doing, technical analysis channels are very impressed by it and yet you come and go "nu uh, it can be done on PS4", so to qualify such ridiculous things, I bring up your history.

It's not ridiculous though. It's making a claim based on what I see.. and others as well. I'm allowed to do that.

I've told you many times, you want respect from the community?

First off, I didn't bring up the PC - you did. Secondly, I don't care about the respect from the Sony GAF. They'll never give it. But I would like a reasonable discussion with them instead of getting past 2 sentences and then it's throwing rocks at me...

So you're basically creating this discussion because you don't like the level of praise the game is receiving? Are you serious?

No. I am seeing what I see and claiming that this game isn't the best looking game ever made and can be ported to PS4. Look at all the PS4 exclusives that look better or at least rival it. The praise of SonyGAF moves to whatever is the latest exclusive as we all witness.. so that's expected.

 

[Darius87]

Wow. So a remake of an old PS3 game with high res textures and dynamic shadows suddenly trumps every single PS4 game ever to grace the videogame sector? NONE of them can beat DeS in graphics? Detroit, Death Stranding, Bloodbourne, Order, DriveClub, UC4, Horizon, GoW, TLOU2, etc?? All because it has higher res textures, dynamic shadows and 60FPS?

there's more then just higher textures and shadows when people say that DS is best looking game what they actually mean it's most detailed game which doesn't mean it have best artistic style or the best fx or best 'insert gfx feature".
all these games are way less detailed then DS.

Why do you think a game at it's maximum settings can't be downgraded for lower end systems? The 3rd party AAA games do this all the time with the PC downgrading graphics features to the consoles.

You can absolutely run this game on a PS4Pro.

1) Downres the textures only by 50% (i..e 4k -> 2k)
2) Lower the particle count
3) Lower the resolution to 1440p.
4) Can handle the 3D models, they aren't all that compared to other PS exclusive titles (in fact there are other games with higher poly count like HZD and TLOU2).
5) Realtime shadows of the main character's light source can stay in. They just need to reduce the shadow map resolution.

Everything else is standard fair. Standard PBR shaders (or lack thereof), SSAO, SSR, baked light maps for GI, etc..

i think you missed the point he's making:

No, it literally cannot, not at the visual level on display

1, 2, 3, 5 points does reduce visuals and there's more then that like tesselation, reflections...

You literally have NO proof of that. You are just saying it just because. I've given you valid facts as to why it can run on the PS4.

so you think PS4 DS would look the same as PS5 DS? just look at PS3 DS and PS4 DarkSouls now tell me there's no difference

You continually want to bring the PC argument into this. Why? Watch Dogs Legion on PC, like all the other PC games, look better than their console equivalents. If you want a like-for-like art comparison for what dwarfs DeS, then look no other than AC:Valhalla. It dwarfs that game in every way.

art is like music subjective.

I'm saying that from what I see and what has been mentioned in their interviews, Demon Souls isn't such a dramatic leap over the capabilities of the PS4 that it's not feasible to port.

it's not feasible without losing details and features that DS have the one thing you failed to understand.

 

[Azurro]

Just because I don't know their specific graphics engine doesn't mean that I don't know the techniques used throughout ALL graphics engines. I have a better idea about performance and what costs what than 99% of the people on GAF.

And yet implementation details as well as changes to the algorithm matter a lot, like I said, you arrogantly and authoritatively throw your opinion without knowing this. if all the techniques are the same, then how come Halo: Infinite looks like garbage with pop in 10 meters away from the player? Ah, well, I guess the code base might be a bit different.

It's not ridiculous though. It's making a claim based on what I see.. and others as well. I'm allowed to do that.

You are certainly allowed, and others are also allowed to call you out on any stupid thing that you post, which happens a lot.

First off, I didn't bring up the PC - you did. Secondly, I don't care about the respect from the Sony GAF. They'll never give it. But I would like a reasonable discussion with them instead of getting past 2 sentences and then it's throwing rocks at me...

No. I am seeing what I see and claiming that this game isn't the best looking game ever made and can be ported to PS4. Look at all the PS4 exclusives that look better or at least rival it. The praise of SonyGAF moves to whatever is the latest exclusive as we all witness.. so that's expected.

You get rocks thrown at you because your opinions are completely misaligned with your technical expertise. Here you just posted that Demon's Souls looks like a PS4 game. This is completely ridiculous and dishonest, but then again, you believe Horizon: Zero Dawn on PC will look better than the sequel because you can push some sliders to the right on existing graphics features.

 

[VFXVeteran]

And yet implementation details as well as changes to the algorithm matter a lot, like I said, you arrogantly and authoritatively throw your opinion without knowing this. if all the techniques are the same, then how come Halo: Infinite looks like garbage with pop in 10 meters away from the player? Ah, well, I guess the code base might be a bit different.

How can a small amount of people on here take every word I say out of context. I never said that all the techniques are the same. I said the majority of the graphics algorithms are the same.

Let's get technical here:

MIP mapping. It's a switch that's used in a driver. Unless the driver is doing something really stupid in the MIPmap algorithm, it will be the same technique across every single platform.

1. Take the largest res texture and downscale it by 2 until you reach a 1x1 pixel.
2. Downscale by using nearest neighbor sampling (typically 2x2 pixels) and average the pixels into 1 pixel.
3. Rinse and repeat..

I know this algorithm because I implemented it before. When someone tells me that MIPmapping could be different because a game looks sharper to their eyes.. I immediately use my experience to know the only way that can happen is if they sampled with a better filter (i.e. Lancos or Beckmann filtering) or used a much larger texture. But you guys don't know that. You only go by what you see - which is oftentimes wrong.

You are certainly allowed, and others are also allowed to call you out on any stupid thing that you post, which happens a lot.

The only people who can call me out on technical details would have to be a developer himself with graphics programming knowledge. To my knowledge from talking with you guys, I have come across no one with those creditials.

You get rocks thrown at you because your opinions are completely misaligned with your technical expertise. Here you just posted that Demon's Souls looks like a PS4 game. This is completely ridiculous and dishonest, but then again, you believe Horizon: Zero Dawn on PC will look better than the sequel because you can push some sliders to the right on existing graphics features.

I get rocks thrown because SonyGAF wants me to agree with their narrative. Let's keep it real here dude. When Horizon FW comes out, it will be the best looking game ever and somehow it will be doing something that Demon Souls hasn't done. You guys don't even see yourselves..

The reason I think HZD on PC will look similar to HFW is because of hardware limitations and point of diminishing returns..which you guys fail to see because you think DeS can't be ported to PS4. You use the same logic that HFW will completely eclipse the PC version of HZD without looking at the costs like I do. HZD takes up an enormous amount of VRAM to run at native 4k. You'll have bottlenecks that will limit the game's visuals and constrain them to like-for-like modifications on the PC version. Since you now know that FW will be a cross platform game, would you still claim that PS4 FW looks much better than PC version of ZD even if it's on a significantly inferior hardware but results will show that the difference between PS4 FW and PS5 FW will be akin to Spiderman MM PS4->PS5? Do you see the agenda here? It's blantantly obvious and not arguing in good faith at all.

 

[McCarth]

There has to be a Sonic-like circle chart meme made for every generation arguing over whether a game looks 'next-gen' right?

 

[mckmas8808]

Having a killer app with a launch game is incredible!

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

AC:V looking better than Demons Souls....?

VFXVeteran cant be serious

 

[Azurro]

The only people who can call me out on technical details would have to be a developer himself with graphics programming knowledge. To my knowledge from talking with you guys, I have come across no one with those creditials.

And you say you aren't arrogant. BTW, no one needs a degree in CS plus 5 years of experience in Unreal Engine when you type up stuff like this when talking about Demon's Souls PS5:

Look at all the PS4 exclusives that look better or at least rival it.

Honestly, I'm done replying to you, you are just an arrogant and resentful PC Master Race guy that is angry we are not worshipping you and that gets stupid when he doesn't get his way.

 

[iHaunter]

Damn hit 92! Look at all the Xbots trying to review bomb DeS lmao.

Fucking Sad!

 

[Darius87]

The reason I think HZD on PC will look similar to HFW is because of hardware limitations and point of diminishing returns..which you guys fail to see because you think DeS can't be ported to PS4. You use the same logic that HFW will completely eclipse the PC version of HZD without looking at the costs like I do. HZD takes up an enormous amount of VRAM to run at native 4k. You'll have bottlenecks that will limit the game's visuals and constrain them to like-for-like modifications on the PC version. Since you now know that FW will be a cross platform game, would you still claim that PS4 FW looks much better than PC version of ZD even if it's on a significantly inferior hardware but results will show that the difference between PS4 FW and PS5 FW will be akin to Spiderman MM PS4->PS5? Do you see the agenda here? It's blantantly obvious and not arguing in good faith at all.

1) don't move goalpost you said HZD will look better on PC then PS5 HFB, now it become "similiar".
2) you fail to understand that porting DS to PS4 would make it look far worse with missing features.
3) yes it will look way better then HZD on PC i can already see it from the trailer. there's no agenda.

 

[Ulysses 31]

i won't try to speculate if it is possible. (simple version : if the game is just on PS5. it means it is not possible on PS4.)

An oversimplification, a PS4(Pro) version would be possible if the graphics get downscaled, whether that would be a good business decision is not the issue I'm talking about. Just look at Miles Moralis PS5 vs PS4, you could get the core Demon's Souls experience from a PS 4 version.

 

[Redtemplar]

How can a small amount of people on here take every word I say out of context. I never said that all the techniques are the same. I said the majority of the graphics algorithms are the same.

Let's get technical here:

MIP mapping. It's a switch that's used in a driver. Unless the driver is doing something really stupid in the MIPmap algorithm, it will be the same technique across every single platform.

1. Take the largest res texture and downscale it by 2 until you reach a 1x1 pixel.
2. Downscale by using nearest neighbor sampling (typically 2x2 pixels) and average the pixels into 1 pixel.
3. Rinse and repeat..

I know this algorithm because I implemented it before. When someone tells me that MIPmapping could be different because a game looks sharper to their eyes.. I immediately use my experience to know the only way that can happen is if they sampled with a better filter (i.e. Lancos or Beckmann filtering) or used a much larger texture. But you guys don't know that. You only go by what you see - which is oftentimes wrong.



The only people who can call me out on technical details would have to be a developer himself with graphics programming knowledge. To my knowledge from talking with you guys, I have come across no one with those creditials.




I get rocks thrown because SonyGAF wants me to agree with their narrative. Let's keep it real here dude. When Horizon FW comes out, it will be the best looking game ever and somehow it will be doing something that Demon Souls hasn't done. You guys don't even see yourselves..

The reason I think HZD on PC will look similar to HFW is because of hardware limitations and point of diminishing returns..which you guys fail to see because you think DeS can't be ported to PS4. You use the same logic that HFW will completely eclipse the PC version of HZD without looking at the costs like I do. HZD takes up an enormous amount of VRAM to run at native 4k. You'll have bottlenecks that will limit the game's visuals and constrain them to like-for-like modifications on the PC version. Since you now know that FW will be a cross platform game, would you still claim that PS4 FW looks much better than PC version of ZD even if it's on a significantly inferior hardware but results will show that the difference between PS4 FW and PS5 FW will be akin to Spiderman MM PS4->PS5? Do you see the agenda here? It's blantantly obvious and not arguing in good faith at all.

what is your problem!!!?, i remenber seeing you in gamespot threads years ago doing the same shit again and again now here the same shit is this a sport to you, every thread about some good looking playstation game and you do the same shit. Did your wife left you because of the playstation, or some time ago you really wanted to work for sony, but they never accepted you.
Get it off your chest, tell us the reason for this journey of yours .

 

[AJUMP23]

SSX for PS2 says hello

I would love a new SSX game.

 

[IbizaPocholo]