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Destiny |OT10| Working as Intended

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H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
LiK said:
Sometimes the "cheeses" are just an alternative strategy, imo. Sometimes they're just as challenging as the "normal" way but are just far more efficient.
Click to expand...
I agree that it's a spectrum and not a binary. Novel approaches to encounters that deviate from their intended execution may well be simply considered alternative strategies, but no less legitimate, and even simply tactically superior. I like the rock in the left corner in Phogoth's room: it's merely a defensible part of the environment you are meant to fight the boss in. Adds can still threaten you and need to be managed, and the boss himself can force you to move around it for better cover. The only "cheesy" aspect of using that spot, in my opinion, comes from the fact that the Wizards on the far side of the room will never be activated and never threaten the group if you all stay there, which does dramatically lower the difficulty of the encounter.

However, I can't think of a single example wherein the popularly accepted "cheese" strategy for any boss in Destiny is anywhere near as challenging, let alone just as challenging, as the "normal" way. I wish you'd provide a specific example...
For example, when people find different ways to "cheese" enemies in certain locations like under the platforms or on a ledge, I think that's a perfectly acceptable method.
Click to expand...
...because that's an awful example. None of the "hide in a container box," "sit still at a sniper point," or "retreat to entryway" cheesing strats, in which you can avoid nearly any personal risk while essentially ignoring adds (ideally all of them, but at the very least all but those who bodyblock your ability to hit the boss) represent a fraction of the challenge of fighting the bosses making use only of the intended environmental features and managing adds that actually threaten you.
You're still avoiding getting killed and still taking time to kill the enemies. The only difference is that you're not forced to run around where Bungie wants you to run.
Click to expand...
You're trivializing the risk of getting killed. It should be a constant threat, and one that you need to manage with skill. That's the difference and it's pretty wholly the difference. It should be an accepted fact that we use these strategies because it dramatically reduces the risk of a wipe (to the point where it's actually impossible if the simple technique is followed without deviation, independent of individual skill- the only variable being how long it takes).

I'm stunned that you would argue this isn't the case!

I should mention that when it comes to a Nightfall, I can perfectly understand the impulse to employ these strategies and even endorse them. When leading new players through one, I use such cheesy spots and encourage people to demonstrate them to others, while typically also describing how one would do it legitimately. The namesake modifier on Nightfall is so restrictive and brutal that it almost begs players to break the encounters, and there is no doubt in my mind that taking a little longer and acting a little cheesier is "worth it" when the risk is getting booted to orbit and starting from scratch. I enjoy doing Nightfalls legit, but it's hard to find people who are willing and I can wholly understand why and relate. Furthermore, some of these spots seem to have been entirely predicted for use by Bungie; the Shrieker room, after all, spawns a Shrieker. Nexus tunnel constantly spawns a Minotaur. The presence of (and need to manage) these in-game risks makes me feel much more

Whenever Bungie closes up a cheese location, they're just making the game more and more linear. I mean, why skip through mobs during story missions/strikes either cuz you're not stopping and killing every enemy along the way. Is that also the wrong way to play the game?
Click to expand...
Destiny isn't a sandbox. The idea that it's some sort of radical concept that bosses are intended to be fought in a certain way and that some alternative strategies may trivialize them too much to be acceptable to those that created the content is ridiculous to me. There are few practical boundaries to trying everything you can to remove the challenge from an encounter, but you also shouldn't be surprised in the least when such methods are occasionally removed.
I think players should be given the flexibility to kill the enemies however they want even if it takes advantage of the dumb AI. Going through the same exact way of playing every time becomes monotonous and doesn't allow players to actually have fun and experiment with a boss fight.
Click to expand...
That flexibility exists. There are lots of different ways you can approach a boss fight, and I'm always happy to try new ones and excited when someone in my fireteam has a new approach. The environments that all the bosses are fought in have lots of cover, approaches and exits, and sightlines. Almost none of these are taken advantage of during a typical "cheesy" strike, in favor of A) never entering the environment at all if possible (Phogoth Shrieker room, Archon Priest entryway ledge, Nexus tunnel) or B) using exactly one environmental feature in an unintended way to provide near-perfect cover (Archon Priest platform hideaway, Valus Ta'aurc box fort, Sepiks monster closet). The Templar and Atheon cheeses are an entire level further removed, where abusing enemy AI reactions to persistent grenades actually bypasses every single intended mechanic of the fight.

I think you're pretty much advocating for what I'M saying here, which is hilarious. If you have a safe, reliable cheesing method, players will perform the exact same actions to produce the desired results every time without deviation. Patching such a method forces them to change their approach, perhaps experiement with new ones? Rather than attempting literally exactly the same thing every time down to the XYZ coordinates they occupy while getting the kill.

Again, it's not a binary. There are some approaches that might not be intended but that do require skill and some that are clearly not intended and obviously don't. But I don't think I can be convinced that it's all the same.
 
P

PewPewPewBow

Member
johnFkennedy said:
Got a shadow price from nightfall. This thing any good? Can it go head to head with a Suros if I want to use an exotic special or heavy?
Click to expand...

I always take it over Suros. Field scout is great:

cST6FFF.gif
cXWh2xZ.gif
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
LordofPwn said:
No problem, maybe hawkian can add it to the next OT for those that want to try flawless.
Click to expand...
That's no problem, can do- can you give me a link to the post itself just for me to jot down?

Next OT is coming up soon, these last 3 pages have been lightning fast. can't you guys just get sick of this game already? -_-
ocean said:
Hawk's newb runs are a blast. If he is still doing them it's the best way to learn!
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot! Remember, everyone is actually welcome to these except those who were in it the week before. It's a good opportunity for experience with the aspects you're not comfortable with, even if you know the raid in total quite well.
realcZk said:
sometimes Hawkian uses proper punctuation on gaf and other times he speaks all lower-case...
Click to expand...
just have to keep you on your toes. typically if I find myself writing an actual paragraph or multi-part response, I switch to proper convention. Otherwise all i care about is making myself understood. i even like lowercase i's.
 
M

matmanx1

Member
Hawkian said:
Remember this week is a Void burn, this seems like a pretty crazy idea to me. Would be fine for the regular Weekly with no burn but the rock you can see down and to the left is what I like to camp for that, feels much more legit despite being very defensible, and still goes 3x faster than using the shrieker room.
Click to expand...

I think I am going to try that rock you mentioned tonight with my regular fireteam. I feel like we can handle this week's Nightfall legitimately (we've done Xyor several times and have successfully completed each of the last 4 Nightfalls) but anything to avoid those annoying spammy wizards would be fantastic.

And yeah, OT 11 is just around the corner. We won't make it to Xur this week with this OT.
 
C

CREMSteve

Member
flkraven said:
Just quoting this for a new page. Would really appreciate the advice.
Click to expand...
If you're a rookie, 28 is where I'd suggest.

If you're a veteran, you can run it at 24. It's quite manageable aside from Atheon and his supplicants, which are lvl 28 and thus immune to all damage a Lvl 24 can throw at them.

You can still go in an kick oracle ass at 24 though, if you have strong enough weapons.
 
L

LiK

Member
Hawkian said:
I agree that it's a spectrum and not a binary. Novel approaches to encounters that deviate from their intended execution may well be simply considered alternative strategies, but no less legitimate, and even simply tactically superior. I like the rock in the left corner in Phogoth's room: it's merely a defensible part of the environment you are meant to fight the boss in. Adds can still threaten you and need to be managed, and the boss himself can force you to move around it for better cover. The only "cheesy" aspect of using that spot, in my opinion, comes from the fact that the Wizards on the far side of the room will never be activated and never threaten the group if you all stay there, which does dramatically lower the difficulty of the encounter.

However, I can't think of a single example wherein the popularly accepted "cheese" strategy for any boss in Destiny is anywhere near as challenging, let alone just as challenging, as the "normal" way. I wish you'd provide a specific example...

...because that's an awful example. None of the "hide in a container box," "sit still at a sniper point," or "retreat to entryway" cheesing strats, in which you can avoid nearly any personal risk while essentially ignoring adds (ideally all of them, but at the very least all but those who bodyblock your ability to hit the boss) represent a fraction of the challenge of fighting the bosses making use only of the intended environmental features and managing adds that actually threaten you.

You're trivializing the risk of getting killed. It should be a constant threat, and one that you need to manage with skill. That's the difference and it's pretty wholly the difference. It should be an accepted fact that we use these strategies because it dramatically reduces the risk of a wipe (to the point where it's actually impossible if the simple technique is followed without deviation, independent of individual skill- the only variable being how long it takes).

I'm stunned that you would argue this isn't the case!

I should mention that when it comes to a Nightfall, I can perfectly understand the impulse to employ these strategies and even endorse them. When leading new players through one, I use such cheesy spots and encourage people to demonstrate them to others, while typically also describing how one would do it legitimately. The namesake modifier on Nightfall is so restrictive and brutal that it almost begs players to break the encounters, and there is no doubt in my mind that taking a little longer and acting a little cheesier is "worth it" when the risk is getting booted to orbit and starting from scratch. I enjoy doing Nightfalls legit, but it's hard to find people who are willing and I can wholly understand why and relate. Furthermore, some of these spots seem to have been entirely predicted for use by Bungie; the Shrieker room, after all, spawns a Shrieker. Nexus tunnel constantly spawns a Minotaur. The presence of (and need to manage) these in-game risks makes me feel much more


Destiny isn't a sandbox. The idea that it's some sort of radical concept that bosses are intended to be fought in a certain way and that some alternative strategies may trivialize them too much to be acceptable to those that created the content is ridiculous to me. There are few practical boundaries to trying everything you can to remove the challenge from an encounter, but you also shouldn't be surprised in the least when such methods are occasionally removed.

That flexibility exists. There are lots of different ways you can approach a boss fight, and I'm always happy to try new ones and excited when someone in my fireteam has a new approach. The environments that all the bosses are fought in have lots of cover, approaches and exits, and sightlines. Almost none of these are taken advantage of during a typical "cheesy" strike, in favor of A) never entering the environment at all if possible (Phogoth Shrieker room, Archon Priest entryway ledge, Nexus tunnel) or B) using exactly one environmental feature in an unintended way to provide near-perfect cover (Archon Priest platform hideaway, Valus Ta'aurc box fort, Sepiks monster closet). The Templar and Atheon cheeses are an entire level further removed, where abusing enemy AI reactions to persistent grenades actually bypasses every single intended mechanic of the fight.

I think you're pretty much advocating for what I'M saying here, which is hilarious. If you have a safe, reliable cheesing method, players will perform the exact same actions to produce the desired results every time without deviation. Patching such a method forces them to change their approach, perhaps experiement with new ones? Rather than attempting literally exactly the same thing every time down to the XYZ coordinates they occupy while getting the kill.

Again, it's not a binary. There are some approaches that might not be intended but that do require skill and some that are clearly not intended and obviously don't. But I don't think I can be convinced that it's all the same.
Click to expand...

I'm glad we agree. I don't mind cheese methods, you abhor them.
 
F

flkraven

Member
Hawkian said:
Thanks a lot! Remember, everyone is actually welcome to these except those who were in it the week before. It's a good opportunity for experience with the aspects you're not comfortable with, even if you know the raid in total quite well.
Click to expand...

I'm level 26 and hope to be 27/28 by the weekend, so maybe I could join one of these soon! What day do you run them?
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
matmanx1 said:
I think I am going to try that rock you mentioned tonight with my regular fireteam. I feel like we can handle this week's Nightfall legitimately (we've done Xyor several times and have successfully completed each of the last 4 Nightfalls) but anything to avoid those annoying spammy wizards would be fantastic.

And yeah, OT 11 is just around the corner. We won't make it to Xur this week with this OT.
Click to expand...
It's totally doable with a group, maybe I can convince some to do it too. Atheon's Epilogue, 77 Wizard and Truth (maybe i'll put in an upgrade or two) will tear the boss apart. I expect Phogoth will sneak a couple kills but because you'll all be close you'll res each other quickly (extra points for Light Beyond Nemeis or Crest of Alpha Lupi).

A Destiny OT has never survived for more than two Xur visits.
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
flkraven said:
I'm level 26 and hope to be 27/28 by the weekend, so maybe I could join one of these soon! What day do you run them?
Click to expand...
Thursdays at 8:15PM EST. This one is Thanksgiving! I'm rescheduling it til 9PM to give some more people a chance to make it after their festivities (I'll be just finishing up family dinner at 8 myself). Typically, I post the signups (along with info about the other weekly stuff I do) on Wednesday mornings. But if you can make it this week, I'll give you a spot now :) If not, stay tuned for future runs!
 
S

scarletham

Member
Hawkian said:
Thursdays at 8:15PM EST. This one is Thanksgiving! I'm rescheduling it til 9PM to give some more people a chance to make it after their festivities (I'll be just finishing up family dinner at 8 myself). Typically, I post the signups (along with info about the other weekly stuff I do) on Wednesday mornings. But if you can make it this week, I'll give you a spot now :) If not, stay tuned for future runs!
Click to expand...

You're gonna have some drunk raiders
 
H

Hoodbury

Member
2good4u2 said:
I always take it over Suros. Field scout is great:

cST6FFF.gif
cXWh2xZ.gif
Click to expand...

Your post is saying take it over the Suros because you got triple kills with it?

I've gotten a quad kill feed with the Suros in one clip without needing Field Scout. :p
I wish I was smart enough with the PS4 UI to know how to make videos. I don't do a lot of things that would be "highlights" but that was pretty neat. It was on Firebase Delphi and they were all taking B and looking out the direction of C and I had run around the long way and just started firing and none of them turned my direction and then bam, bam, bam, and on my last bullet, bam all dead without anyone even noticing me.

Heh, just kidding around, both are great weapons. Just feel like someone needs to defend Suros as it gets a lot of hate around here.
 
Duane Cunningham

Duane Cunningham

Member
Duane Cunningham said:
Hey, does anyone know if DLC is multi platform? I'm on PS3 but I'll probably pick up a PS4 after Christmas. But I don't want to wait to buy the expansion...
Click to expand...

Nobody answered me on this, but in case anyone else wants to know as well, I found out that the expansion pass is indeed cross buy between PS3/PS4.

Destiny Expansion Pass
Activision
Game|Released Sep 9, 2014|

Explore more games and downloadable content for Destiny!

Purchasing this content entitles you to both the PS3™ and PS4™ versions!

Expand your Destiny adventure with brand new story missions, cooperative and competitive multiplayer arenas, and a wealth of all new weapons, armor, and gear to earn. The Destiny Expansion Pass includes Destiny Expansion I and Destiny Expansion II.'
Click to expand...
 
S

Strider

Member
ThirtyPlus said:
Monte fuckin Carlo. I know it damn sure better get touched in the exotic buff patch.
Click to expand...

I'd cry tears of joy. Monte Carlo was the first exotic weapon I ever got and the first weapon I ever maxed out.

I love that thing but it's just not a viable weapon choice for anything right now :/
 
R

realcZk

Member
InvisibleStride said:
I'd cry tears of joy. Monte Carlo was the first exotic weapon I ever got and the first weapon I ever maxed out.

I love that thing but it's just not a viable weapon choice for anything right now :/
Click to expand...

It's such a beautiful piece of weaponry. I enjoy using mine a lot but it could really use a little something extra. The recoil is weird (has a sway to it), but once you get used it it, its controllable. The Melee CDR is noticable and a great perk but its of questionable worth when considering the poor stability and impact of the gun.
 
L

LiK

Member
Hoodbury said:
Your post is saying take it over the Suros because you got triple kills with it?

I've gotten a quad kill feed with the Suros in one clip without needing Field Scout. :p
I wish I was smart enough with the PS4 UI to know how to make videos. I don't do a lot of things that would be "highlights" but that was pretty neat. It was on Firebase Delphi and they were all taking B and looking out the direction of C and I had run around the long way and just started firing and none of them turned my direction and then bam, bam, bam, and on my last bullet, bam all dead without anyone even noticing me.

Heh, just kidding around, both are great weapons. Just feel like someone needs to defend Suros as it gets a lot of hate around here.
Click to expand...

Haters gonna hate. Suros is a great gun. I can't wait for Vex to get buffed again so people can go back to hating that gun more.
 
Flying Toaster

Flying Toaster

Member
Hawkian said:
Thursdays at 8:15PM EST. This one is Thanksgiving! I'm rescheduling it til 9PM to give some more people a chance to make it after their festivities (I'll be just finishing up family dinner at 8 myself). Typically, I post the signups (along with info about the other weekly stuff I do) on Wednesday mornings. But if you can make it this week, I'll give you a spot now :) If not, stay tuned for future runs!
Click to expand...

Damn, I am half tempted to rush out get a freaking PS4 and be raid ready just for this one particular run. Drunken TurkeyGaf raid for the win.

Next time a massive game like Destiny comes out I will have to ask myself... What would Hawkian get it on... then do that. I am missing out on all the fun.
 
R

realcZk

Member
LiK said:
Haters gonna hate. Suros is a great gun. I can't wait for Vex to get buffed again so people can go back to hating that gun more.
Click to expand...

Suros is insanely good. It get's a lot of flak because people say it doesn't take much "skill" to use the gun. That's partially true, its a very forgiving weapon in unskilled hands. You need to be extremely careful when it's in the hands of a skilled player, because it's a beast. Chaining together triple, even quad kills with the Suros is pretty damn easy with 100% stability if you have the aiming down. Shots for days. And that AR nerf that bungie did a while ago because ARs "were too effective at range" did practially nothing to Suros' effectiveness at high range.
 
P

PewPewPewBow

Member
Hoodbury said:
Your post is saying take it over the Suros because you got triple kills with it?

I've gotten a quad kill feed with the Suros in one clip without needing Field Scout. :p
I wish I was smart enough with the PS4 UI to know how to make videos. I don't do a lot of things that would be "highlights" but that was pretty neat. It was on Firebase Delphi and they were all taking B and looking out the direction of C and I had run around the long way and just started firing and none of them turned my direction and then bam, bam, bam, and on my last bullet, bam all dead without anyone even noticing me.

Heh, just kidding around, both are great weapons. Just feel like someone needs to defend Suros as it gets a lot of hate around here.
Click to expand...

But there was no 4th player to get the quad kill on :[
 
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