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[Hawkian]

That means all of my existing library of exotics and purples will become obsolete.

That's going to piss me off guys. Meaning the DLC can probably go eff itself off for me

Exotics will never become permanently obsolete. You are welcome to quote and mock me if I'm wrong.

 

[hydruxo]

Bungie forum comments are hilarious. Take a look at this gem (sorry if it's been posted here before):

Rambo IIII Atheon here.

So good news! Bungie installed a railing around my crib so I stop falling, and man, life is great!! And you remember how I used to teleport the guys who were farthest away from me? You know, because the guys closest are easier for me to kill? Well, apparently Guardians realized that they could have their best players run away from me so they would get teleported and they were making short work of my portal teams... This wouldn't be a problem normally, but apparently the Kamakazi Harpies that I ordered from Amazon can't fly more than 18" off the ground, so these Guardian teams were just sticking their crappiest players on top of those pillars and the Harpies just sit below them and squawk.

Anyway, since Guardians can no longer cheese me, its time for us to cheese some Guardians!!
I'm looking for a group of lvl 30 Vex to cheese some Guardians on Hard Mode. I have the Guardian checkpoint. You don't need to be any good at killing Guardians; we're going to cheese the Guardians using some known glitches. This should take 1-2 hours. The exact time is unknown, because it depends on how badly the group of Guardians wants a 4th copy of the Legendary Sparrow. But typically, if we cheese/glitch kill them for about 90 minutes, at least one person in their group will start to break, and when that happens, victory is inevitable.

Need 6 Vex total, will split into 2 groups: -1 yellow Pretorian and 2 yellow Goblins will stand in Venus portal -3 yellow Hobgoblins will stand in Mars portal

Pretorians: no mic required. Really all you need is one hand; you're just going to mash melee. If a Guardian takes your health down with the Relic, we're going to glitch your health back to full. So again, no worries if you aren't good at killing Guardians. You just literally need to mash right bumper until the relic carrier dies. His friends will go blind, they'll die, and that's it! We're done! Rinse and repeat until their spirits are broken and they surrender.

Goblins: Your job is just to die while the health-regenerating Pretorian melee kills the Relic carrier. Literally just stand there and get shot. In fact, I might not even need players for these roles. I might just connect spare controllers and sign them into Live.

Hobgoblins: You guys are kind of outnumbered, so I'm going to use some glitches on Guardians to help you out. For example, if I teleport them to Mars (where you 3 will be standing), I'll try my best to only teleport 2 Guardians. They will have to focus on the Oracles, and then you guys can just snipe them to death. Also, I will occasionally send the "detain" cage around Guardians who were teleported, so they'll have to shoot their way out of the detain cage AND kill the Oracles. You'll make short work of them when I can pull off this glitch.

Now obviously, some guardians are resilient and they may defeat you and leave with the Relic, in which case, I will be extremely vulnerable. So just in case that happens, I'm going to have to cheese the Guardians myself. And fortunately, I have a few tricks up my sleeve:

1) Portal Malfunction: One of my favorite strategies for cheesing Guardians is to shut down the portal system. They think the Portal is open, but they will actually walk right through it and they won't leave Mars or Venus! Its extremely disorienting for a Guardian, and its hilarious to watch!

2) Relic Shield malfunction: Guardians like to wuss out and all camp the center platform (where those worthless imported Kamakazi Harpies can't fly). They throw up their "Relic Bubble" and my guns can't penetrate the bubble. Or so they think. I have gotten very good at glitching the bubble shield so that my shots go right through them! I usually wait until my health is real low before activating this glitch, because when that happens, it REALLY breaks their spirits. And then hilarity ensues...

3) Zoo Attack: If all else fails, and these Guardians manage to fight their way through all our cheese attempts, I may have to resort to an all-out Zoo attack. I have an entire army of Monkeys, Giraffes, Camels, Centipedes, Zebras, Chimpanzees, Leopards, Turtles, Anteaters, Bees, and Lions. They can knock a Guardian out of combat for 10 minutes easy.

If somehow still they manage to beat me, no worries. I've got warehouses full of Legendary Sparrows and Ascendant Energies. You know the ball-pit at Chuck-E-Cheese? multiply that my 1,000; that's how many Ascendant Energies I have just layout around. If they win, I'll throw some glowy balls and sparrows at them. Oh, and maybe a Chatterwhite Shader. LOL!

Msg "Atheon" on XBL if you want to help with the cheese.

Left 4 Vex

Lol this is so good. The Goblin one killed me.

 

[Zakalwe]

brilliant, thank you, so glad it was not a perception trick. That explains my whole "I know I oneshot one with Golden Gun" experience too.

Okay, so that being known, Oracles are completely doable. this message is sort of meant for my group but is good info for all... our limiting factors were:

• 29s (including myself) getting oneshot by hobgoblins/being unable to oneshot hobgoblins with the relic
• The Green side Minotaur pissing in everyone's cereal

Adaptations we should all make for next time:

• As soon as you are teleported, either side, all three player throw their grenades down at the mobs there. On Mars/Red/Past/Left, the Relic holder can then grab the relic and catch their breath a second if the hobgoblin shields were triggered- there's no immediate threat to the Oracle killers like there is from the Minotaur on Venus/Green/Future/Right. On V/G/F/R, obviously, the Relic holder needs to go on to murder the Minotaur to the best of his ability
• On Right/Green/Venus side, ONE person needs to continue helping the relic holder with the Minotaur, other person needs to immediately concentrate on Oracles after throwing their grenades. We'll have to call it as soon as we're ported, just after someone calls grabbing the relic, a second person will go "I'm helping with the minotaur, you get Oracles."

With these two tweaks our existing strategy would have worked more than fine. I'm still debating whether or not my loadout was ideal as a 29- might try Pocket Infinity for a round or two and see how it goes.

Imo, never throw grenades at hobgoblins if a level 30 grabs the relic. Let them quickly asses their positions and if one is spread out too far they can call out so it can be shot once to trigger its shield to delay it while they one shot the other two.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Well I guess I can some things done in the meantime..

 

[EL CUCO]

So I see Hawkian finally getting his feet wet in the Hard Raid lol Awesome.

 

[patchday]

Ran a normal raid group last night. One of our raiders, poor guy, was kicked out of the raid about 15 seconds after the last oracle was killed. He made it back in about 10 seconds after loot was distributed.

That's some BS right there

In his/her defense, so did Bungie

I want black shaders

I want God of War shader. my female titan would look hawt in that

 

[SkylineRKR]

I agree with a lot of those things but I think the relic shield is not broken.

The last time any of us was being hit in the shield is over 2 weeks ago. As long as we NEVER collide with the RC while jumping in or while shooting we never ever get hit by Atheon.

For the hobs, its fine is one lays the smack down on them with a rocket launcher if you have one other level 30 who has corrective measure or golden gun or something. He can solo at least 3 oracles.

 

[squidhands]

Wake the hive and it will take you under 10 minutes.

An hour. Please. The weapon isn't worth an hour.

Got mine done in around an hour while farming Relic Iron. Stuff like this is best done while doing other tasks you need to do.

Thanks for the suggestions, gentlefolk. I need to farm some relic iron anyway, so I may end up doing that.

 

[patchday]

Exotics will never become permanently obsolete. You are welcome to quote and mock me if I'm wrong.

I wouldn't do that.

I guess I'm not terribly attached to my purples... As long as the exotics remain relevant I wont be too hot

 

[Zakalwe]

Exotics will never become permanently obsolete. You are welcome to quote and mock me if I'm wrong.

I think you're pretty safe there Hawk, they'll never let our current exotics become obsolete. The more viable weapons there are for players the chase the longer they'll play. I'm sure the same goes for legendaries too.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

The Last Word dropped for me from the Nightfall strike last night.

Immediately went into crucible and went 26-5 my first match with it and 11-11 the next. So yeah, I'll have to get a better feel for the gun and how it performs on different maps but it's a lot of fun to use.

 

[Ambitious]

Huh? Two guys in my friend list are playing. One is in orbit, the other in the Crucible.

 

[Zakalwe]

The Last Word dropped for me from the Nightfall strike last night.

Immediately went into crucible and went 26-5 my first match with it and 11-11 the next. So yeah, I'll have to get a better feel for the gun and how it performs on different maps but it's a lot of fun to use.

Have you upgraded it yet? Unlocking the unique upgrade transforms it from decent to monsterous.

Grats.

 

[JohnOfMars]

Adaptations we should all make for next time:

• As soon as you are teleported, either side, all three player throw their grenades down at the mobs there. On Mars/Red/Past/Left, the Relic holder can then grab the relic and catch their breath a second if the hobgoblin shields were triggered- there's no immediate threat to the Oracle killers like there is from the Minotaur on Venus/Green/Future/Right. On V/G/F/R, obviously, the Relic holder needs to go on to murder the Minotaur to the best of his ability
• On Right/Green/Venus side, ONE person needs to continue helping the relic holder with the Minotaur, other person needs to immediately concentrate on Oracles after throwing their grenades. We'll have to call it as soon as we're ported, just after someone calls grabbing the relic, a second person will go "I'm helping with the minotaur, you get Oracles."

My teams have never had a problem with the minotaur unless his health glitches. My method: Have the two non-relic players knock his shields off by the time the relic carrier gets down there. Then they go full oracle duty. The relic holder does an air-smash, then ground R2 to stagger, repeat. Goes down without a problem. The other gobs won't even stand-up to one smash. Again, this is about speed. Get those oracles down fast.

The hobgoblins are trickier, but I think anyone engaging them before the relic holder is a real bad idea. Every time we've done this, we get our relic carrier killed.

Activating their shield merely delays and you cannot delay as you've noticed about oracle life increasing as time goes on. The relic holder should always be the first to engage. If the hobgobs are are looking at the stairs, then go down the sides to surprise them. If they're not staring at the stairs, then relic carrier can handle it solo no problem. Engaging their shields makes their next behavior very unpredictable. If you feel like you're really having a hard time here, the hobs usually spawn in a pair and one to the side. Pop the shield on the loner because he wouldn't die from the first relic smash anyway.

And since you're talking Hard raid. use a 30 is your relic carrier. No more getting one-shot.

One last other point; relic carriers, use your supers on the oracles. It's not a one-shot, but it does massive damage to them.

 

[Jinjo]

Imo, never throw grenades at hobgoblins if a level 30 grabs the relic. Let them quickly asses their positions and if one is spread out too far they can call out so it can be shot once to trigger its shield to delay it while they one shot the other two.

Exactly, throwing nades at the hobgoblins is a bad idea since it can leave the relic carrier vulnerable if it so happens that the current hobgoblin he is targeting got stunned and another didn't. Go and finish of the other one, you still got the first one to deal with. Relic carrier should always solo them. Be as erratic as you can be, run and jump once, use melee in the air to get there quick and then use slam. Most of the time you get atleast two this way, if not all of them.

 

[Hawkian]

Hawkmoon + void 77 Wizard + Void MG = great loadout for entire hard raid (may want sniper for oracles if you're cheesing from above)

That was my loadout to start, and yeah, Hawkmoon was tragically not doing enough damage at 29 to Oracles in the pre-templar fight with the strategy we used :'( Gjallarhorn was downright necessary for the Gatekeepers.

But you're right, for Atheon, I was so reliant on my primary ammo and saving Gjallarhorn rockets was so inefficient. At 30 the resilience/damage bonus will probably make it worthwhile, but at 29, you're right, I'm swapping back to HM/77 Wiz/CM and letting the talons fly. God I want to get back in there.

On the left side, if the relic guy don't double jump, he can sneek on the hobgoblins. Just run normally down the stairs.

If the relic guy is lvl 29, he can do the same thing, but near the hobgoblins, instead of just using R2, he can jump and R2.

R2 doesn't do anything on the ground I don't think. A jump and R2 did NOT oneshot the Hobgoblins at 29 which was a huge liability in contrast to my usual ease with the relic in there.

Jay did mention a way the relic holder can move down at lesser risk to themselves from the hobgoblins, but I never got to try it myself.

Imo, never throw grenades at hobgoblins if a level 30 grabs the relic. Let them quickly asses their positions and if one is spread out too far they can call out so it can be shot once to trigger its shield to delay it while they one shot the other two.

Ah okay, that makes sense. We'll have the relic holder call out if they need one hit.

 

[figadapaura]

Ya, but the armor had sort of a grayish accent. But I would be willing to take either.

Everyone knows that the Titan is just Bungie's version of a Vanguard, we just need a shader to complete the package.

Hmm, you're right. I should level up my Striker, since my Shepard was always Vanguard. The armour definitely fits.

 

[raindoc]

Ran a normal raid group last night. One of our raiders, poor guy, was kicked out of the raid about 15 seconds after the last oracle was killed. He made it back in about 10 seconds after loot was distributed.

remember our run together? dropped out right before you guys finished Atheon...

EDIT: from now on I'll blame you. don't raid with this guy gaf, ever!

 

[SkylineRKR]

One last other point; relic carriers, use your supers on the oracles. It's not a one-shot, but it does massive damage to them.

It is a one shot, if you aim it right in the middle. I've done it on Heroic a few times.

 

[MiniBossman]

So please excuse the dumb question, but you can do Nightfall 3 times in one week for rewards? With the same character?

 

[hydruxo]

Yeah if I have the relic and the other two guys are struggling or taking it noticeably slower than it should be, I'll super one of the oracles to try and help out. You can also jump and melee the oracles with the relic but you have to be mindful of where you're at when you do it so you don't fly off the ledge.

 

[EL CUCO]

So please excuse the dumb question, but you can do Nightfall 3 times in one week for rewards? With the same character?

Only once a week with each character.

 

[lunlunqq]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

 

[LiK]

Hmm, you're right. I should level up my Striker, since my Shepard was always Vanguard. The armour definitely fits.

Striker is mad fun in PVP

 

[realcZk]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

-snip-

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

.....

 

[Zakalwe]

It is a one shot, if you aim it right in the middle. I've done it on Heroic a few times.

It depends how long it's been alive for. They gain health over time, popping the super as soon as they spawn kills it, leave it a few seconds and they gain enough HP to survive.

 

[figadapaura]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

It's 2 energy actually.

 

[EL CUCO]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

I am now forced to hate you.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

NICE!!! wait why are you saying its only 2 energy (assuming you meant that) Dont tell me you're breaking it down D:

 

[Hawkian]

My teams have never had a problem with the minotaur unless his health glitches. My method: Have the two non-relic players knock his shields off by the time the relic carrier gets down there. Then they go full oracle duty. The relic holder does an air-smash, then ground R2 to stagger, repeat. Goes down without a problem. The other gobs won't even stand-up to one smash. Again, this is about speed. Get those oracles down fast.

When we had both people helping the Relic carrier with the Minotaur we wiped to the Oracles Getting his shield off and then immediately turning to oracle duty sounds good though.

Does ground R2 actually do anything?

The hobgoblins are trickier, but I think anyone engaging them before the relic holder is a real bad idea. Every time we've done this, we get our relic carrier killed.

That's how I felt on normal, 100% of the time, but our relic holders died multiple times to them and the 29s can't oneshot them But having the Relic carrier engage first, then dictate whether or not a shot or two on them is needed makes sense.

And since you're talking Hard raid. use a 30 is your relic carrier. No more getting one-shot.

We had 3, and this was determined after my first time holding it which felt awfully bad

One last other point; relic carriers, use your supers on the oracles. It's not a one-shot, but it does massive damage to them.

What about using it on the Minotaur?

 

[Shito]

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

And I now hate you...

 

[raindoc]

It is a one shot, if you aim it right in the middle. I've done it on Heroic a few times.

i usually drop the relic to fire my Corrective Measure if the other two guys are in trouble. or if we're just 2... kill an oracle, pick up relic, wait for the screen to go back to normal (no idea if that is necessary, never risked it), repeat.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Have you upgraded it yet? Unlocking the unique upgrade transforms it from decent to monsterous.

Grats.

Nah, it's about as stock as it gets right now. The only action it's seen so far is 3 crucible matches but it definitely moved to the top of my list on which weapon I'll be pouring my bounties into.

 

[FyreWulff]

What kinds of patches are certifications a requirement for? If the patch is delivered through the PSN/XBL patch delivery system, I could see it requiring certification. But are the developers allowed to build update systems within the game that can download patch content directly, maybe bypassing the requirement of delivering a certified patch through Sony/MS? For example, when I start Destiny and it says "Downloading Update", is that using the PSN/XBL delivery system on the backend? Does it even matter?

EDIT: Removed picture because it was showing installing in progress, not updating.

Totally depends on what systems the patch data touches. Developers like Bungie also have 'internal cert' where it has to make it through their own testing before sending it to first party (to avoid first party sending it back)

So for instance, in their Halo days they didn't have to send playlist and map updates to MS console cert process, but they had an internal cert and testing process so updates had a 1-2 week leadtime before it was pushed into the wild.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

Another person added to my hate list. I don't know why rngesus hates me so. Xur will bring me the ballerhorn. He must

 

[ocean]

When we had both people helping the Relic carrier with the Minotaur we wiped to the Oracles Getting his shield off and then immediately turning to oracle duty sounds good though.

Does ground R2 actually do anything?


That's how I felt on normal, 100% of the time, but our relic holders died multiple times to them and the 29s can't oneshot them But having the Relic carrier engage first, then dictate whether or not a shot or two on them is needed makes sense.


We had 3, and this was determined after my first time holding it which felt awfully bad


What about using it on the Minotaur?

I'm never the relic guy but always always shoot a rocket on Venus as soon as we're teleported. It rocks the shield off the Minotaur and I can have my AE ready and pointing at the Oracle in time for its spawn.

 

[Zakalwe]

WTF. So solo'ed nightfall with my main and only got 5 shards... OK, I ain't even mad.

This morning I solo'ed it again with my titan alt and got the freaking Gjarllarhorn...

Are you kidding me? That's only 2 shards, even worse than my main... RNGesus hates me.

I take it you already own it? Or are you being weirdly sarcastic? :3

Anyway, really don't shard it. Level it and put it on an alt so you have less to swap over. Eventually you'll be able to gear each character and never have to move equipment around.

 

[PachinkoChampBruh]

is this just maintenance or is it also an update?

 

[lunlunqq]

NICE!!! wait why are you saying its only 2 energy (assuming you meant that) Dont tell me you're breaking it down D:

I'm thinking about doing it since I already have a maxed out one for ages. And I feel it's not as useful as my other exotics (IB and Suros).

 

[Rixa]

Are you stacked on Solar secondary weapons? Light/Beware is fantastic.

Good, Ill grab that when I got enough marks. I do have Pocket Infinity quest, but its in progression of dismantling fusion rifles. Only 2 dismantled sofar, might take awhile to get it (then its the kill 200 in nightfall with fr, I have a blue maxed fr for it).

 

[Wired All Wrong]

The Last Word dropped for me from the Nightfall strike last night.

Immediately went into crucible and went 26-5 my first match with it and 11-11 the next. So yeah, I'll have to get a better feel for the gun and how it performs on different maps but it's a lot of fun to use.

Pretty much the same happened for me this week. Got The Last Word on Tuesday night in a Nightfall and tried it out in the crucible last night and went 31-6 or something like that my first match. Best I've ever done. Damn thing is a beast and I haven't unlocked any upgrades yet. Was using bounties on my Thorn to get the DoT perk so I can try that gun out in PvP, but I may stop that and just start upgrading TLW. Really starting to fall in love with Handcannons in PvP.

Have you upgraded it yet? Unlocking the unique upgrade transforms it from decent to monsterous.
Grats.

That's awesome to know. It's so good even without upgrades. The rapid fire is fun to use and the gun looks great.

 

[hydruxo]

is this just maintenance or is it also an update?

Server maintenance. No update right now but it's supposed to allow them to push out more updates over the next few weeks.

 

[ocean]

is this just maintenance or is it also an update?

They said all the changes are on their end so we won't see anything new. Something about getting ready for the upcoming updates they've promised.

 

[Zakalwe]

Nah, it's about as stock as it gets right now. The only action it's seen so far is 3 crucible matches but it definitely moved to the top of my list on which weapon I'll be pouring my bounties into.

Might just be the way you wrote it, but remember XP is distributed equally so you don't need to funnel it to a single item (just in case you're still going with the old info). A friend of mine was funnelling to a single item until I told him yesterday that technique was debunked weeks ago... He was a little peeved.

And yeh, if you like TLW without upgrades you're in for a treat.

Also, remember it's full auto. So many people don't realise that. I saw a guy using it in crucible and messaged him asking if he knew, he told me he'd been on excited to get it to pay attention.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

I'm thinking about doing it since I already have a maxed out one for ages. And I feel it's not as useful as my other exotics (IB and Suros).

Fair enough, if you already have one maxed. I do dismantle extra exotics I get sometimes....RNG is cruel to some of us.

 

[LiK]

How's the maintenance?

 

[Jinjo]

When we had both people helping the Relic carrier with the Minotaur we wiped to the Oracles Getting his shield off and then immediately turning to oracle duty sounds good though.

Does ground R2 actually do anything?


That's how I felt on normal, 100% of the time, but our relic holders died multiple times to them and the 29s can't oneshot them But having the Relic carrier engage first, then dictate whether or not a shot or two on them is needed makes sense.


We had 3, and this was determined after my first time holding it which felt awfully bad


What about using it on the Minotaur?

You should always use R2 on the ground to finish enemies off. It's a heavier melee attack and better than the R1 imo. I only use the R1 melee when in the air to gain speed/to be erratic as possible. The rest is all R2.

 

[SimpleCRIPPLE]

A brief recap of my last week or so in Destiny.

1. Give up on Gjallerhorn and buy the Truth from Xur

2. The next day I solo the nightfall hoping for the Last Word and get Gjallerhorn.

3. The next day I run through the raid hoping for boots or gloves and get my 2nd Vision of Confluence and my 2nd Gjallerhorn.


God damn it.

 

[JohnOfMars]

When we had both people helping the Relic carrier with the Minotaur we wiped to the Oracles Getting his shield off and then immediately turning to oracle duty sounds good though.

Does ground R2 actually do anything?

Ground R2 is a short dash & bash that staggers. In my experience, it's faster than jumping up and air smashing again. After that first smash I decide what I need to do more. If I have breathing room, jump->R2, if not or if he's really weak, ground R2.

That's how I felt on normal, 100% of the time, but our relic holders died multiple times to them and the 29s can't oneshot them But having the Relic carrier engage first, then dictate whether or not a shot or two on them is needed makes sense.

We had 3x 30s, and this was determined after my first time holding it which felt awfully bad

The hobos on red/left/past/mars are the hardest part of the Atheon fight. If we wipe it's because of them. It was only when we had a 30 relic holder that it started to feel comfortable.

What about using it on the Minotaur?

It's not charged by then. When I'm doing it (and I have low cooldown reduction on my super), it's up by the 6th Oracle. (On the other hand, I have 100% grenade/cleanse cooldown, so my teammates never have their vision cloud at all. )

 

[lunlunqq]

Well, I have been holding back because everybody seems to be in love the Ghorn; but I really don't think it's as useful as everybody made it sound to be. In the hard raid I typically use the IB to sniper the gatekeepers and leave the praetorians to a good leveled-up void machine gun. They got the job done pretty nicely and I never feel the need of popping the Ghorn out. Of course it's also because I always lose my rocket ammo after a few wipe which makes any launcher much less useful...