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[JayEH]

I honestly think everyone is making a big deal out of nothing. There was an AC game with a black female lead and you could play them in MP before. This game has a male lead that works just like Watch Dogs in that in MP you look the same to yourself but different to others.

Edit: I know the excuse they gave is bad. Maybe that's what people are really mad about? I don't know, I'm not really following this closely.

 

[Bucca]

Do invaders in Watch_Dogs appear as both female and male?

Yes, as generic NPCs

 

[Nirolak]

This has now hit the Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-e3-2014-highlights-2-20140611-story.html

Shouldn't be too long before we get a fairly lengthy Ubisoft response.

 

[Nesotenso]

But isn't the idea behind the co-op presumably that other developers/assassins/templars are logging into the Animus to join you inside the same man's memory? Or are they entirely different people being logged into through the Animus? People who are a part of the history of your character... only when your friend is around.

If your friend logs off, does the other assassin blink out of existence in the game world?

All of this is totally acceptable for gameplay reasons, but women are pushing things too far?

you are playing as Arno in coop the whole time.

 

[The Librarian]

That's not essentially what it comes down to because I literally explained in every step why it can't be done given the legacy of this series and what they're going for and you say "nope, just change it" as if it's some trivial thing that can be changed easily. It's not an issue, it's people who don't know about game development being misinformed by journalists.

Yes it is! The whole reason people are asking why they can't play as females is because women want to play as women, and they're more comfortable speaking out about it.

 

[Azih]

Especially in the context of a co-op feature that is a drop in to the main campaign in which the character that the player actually plays as never changes.

 

[Blackthorn]

Yes, as generic NPCs

Hard to see why your co-op partners couldn't appear as female then.

 

[Bucca]

Yes it is! The whole reason people are asking why they can't play as females is because women want to play as women, and they're more comfortable speaking out about it.

But you would still appear as Arno to yourself!

You're saying you want other people to see you as a woman but not yourself? Trying to understand what you're getting at.

And, again, there is no customization of these co-op characters.

 

[APF]

Why are there four Arnos?

 

[Impeccable]

That's not essentially what it comes down to because I literally explained in every step why it can't be done given the legacy of this series and what they're going for and you say "nope, just change it" as if it's some trivial thing that can be changed easily. It's not an issue, it's people who don't know about game development being misinformed by journalists.

So basically, there was no female assassins in this period of time in their open universe solely because of how clothes were fitted, weapons looked and there wasn't enough development time? I mean, I see how people can see this as un-important but that is a clusterfuck story wise going forward.

 

[Tigress]

Does anyone actually want this? I don't think there would be any less of a backlash if you couldn't play as a woman but other players saw you as one.

I think the problem here is they did write the story for Arno, not for a woman. And the point of having you look like Arno is the story is written directly at Arno, so when you are playing with others, you are still playing the story (That's why the game is designed that everyone sees themselves as Arno). It makes it so there is no disconnect when people join your game. Everyone can just pretend they are still playing the story as the NPCs look like they are addressing them.

Honestly, if the game really just lets you change face and clothes, I could understand the no time argument. They don't have a real character creator anyways (it's not like just adding the option to the character creator), and it would take putting in a character creator which I think is a lot more work probably than just letting you change clothes (and a change of face is probably pretty much like changing clothes).

Granted, I'm no developer but I would think being able to change the body around takes more work then just letting people change skins over the body (which is pretty much all clothes are, and really faces can be treated like skins as well).

 

[Bucca]

Hard to see why your co-op partners couldn't appear as female then.

From what I remember seeing (I need to go back through the info), the characters are all named.

So perhaps they are tied to the story in some fashion? Just my speculation, someone correct me if they know more.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes, but you said you can't genderswap in multiplayer. I'm telling you that you actually can, so it's not like story-wise it's impossible.

During the MP it's just a training ground like in halo 4 MP. So yes it is story-wise impossible to do. There's no MP story. The story of the MP is
"The multiplayer aspect of the Assassin's Creed franchise is an Animus-based training program used by Abstergo Industries, in order to prepare new Templar agents for the fight against the Assassins in 2012. Introduced in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood and featured in Assassin's Creed: Revelations, Assassin's Creed III and Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, the multiplayer is composed of several game modes comprised mainly of hunting and killing an assigned target, while evading pursuers at the same time."

In fact, if you check every single MP character profile, they all say this.
The Cutthroat (harvested from: Adrien Flood) was an Animi Avatar used by the entertainment branch of Abstergo Industries, as part of their plan to influence the general public, via the console stage of the Animus technology. He used a dagger as his specialty weapon.

 

[figadapaura]

Why are there four Arnos?

Immersion.

 

[Azih]

So basically, there was no female assassins in this period of time in their open universe solely because of how clothes were fitted, weapons looked and there wasn't enough development time? I mean, I see how people can see this as un-important but that is a clusterfuck story wise going forward.

Who said there were no female assassins in this period of time?

 

[The Librarian]

But you would still appear as Arno to yourself!

You're saying you want other people to see you as a woman but not yourself? Trying to understand what you're getting at.

And, again, there is no customization of these co-op characters.

If we're at that point where I may appear as female to other people but still have a male character in co-op, why not the option of making the male character female in co-op?

 

[Crossing Eden]

So basically, there was no female assassins in this period of time in their open universe solely because of how clothes were fitted, weapons looked and there wasn't enough development time? I mean, I see how people can see this as un-important but that is a clusterfuck story wise going forward.

No no no. There are female assassins in the story, every game has them. Ubisoft never said that there were no female assassins in the game. They just said that you don't play as a female assassin because all the animations belong to the main character who doesn't have a androgynous build.

 

[Oersted]

I honestly think everyone is making a big deal out of nothing. There was an AC game with a black female lead and you could play them in MP before. This game has a male lead that works just like Watch Dogs in that in MP you look the same to yourself but different to others.

Edit: I know the excuse they gave is bad. Maybe that's what people are really mad about? I don't know, I'm not really following this closely.

Yes, they have been able to do it, and they could/should do it again. That is the point.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

You don't have to be a woman to create female characters. The assertion that men can only write men because it's 'what they know' implies that they have never known a single woman in their life.

Also, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

I'm not asserting men can only know men. I am just saying men know men better and women know women better especially with more sensitive topics. Recently, there has been more women in the game industry, and there has been more inclusion compared to 10+ years ago. And now, (despite how I feel about these games) there has been much more 'inclusion' and gender equality because of it, games like Last of us, Tomb Raider, Remember Me, that AC game.

Publicly attacking them like this, like a lot of people are doing is a form of pressure.

I want to see well designed woman characters in games as well, I just think that getting more woman into the industry, into science/math/engineering in general will be good for games as well as society.

 

[figadapaura]

During the MP it's just a training ground like in halo 4 MP. So yes it is story-wise impossible to do. There's no MP story. The story of the MP is
"The multiplayer aspect of the Assassin's Creed franchise is an Animus-based training program used by Abstergo Industries, in order to prepare new Templar agents for the fight against the Assassins in 2012. Introduced in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood and featured in Assassin's Creed: Revelations, Assassin's Creed III and Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, the multiplayer is composed of several game modes comprised mainly of hunting and killing an assigned target, while evading pursuers at the same time."

In fact, if you check every single MP character profile, they all say this.
The Cutthroat (harvested from: Adrien Flood) was an Animi Avatar used by the entertainment branch of Abstergo Industries, as part of their plan to influence the general public, via the console stage of the Animus technology. He used a dagger as his specialty weapon.

It still all happens inside the animus. If it can be done during training, why not during a memory? It's not like there would have been 4 Arnos, so why is genderswap such an issue?

 

[Bucca]

If we're at that point where I may appear as female to other people but still have a male character in co-op, why not the option of making the male character female in co-op?

Because of the way co-op is designed.

It is seamless multiplayer, which is why you are still Arno on your screen and Aiden in Watch Dogs.

On top of that, I think the other 3 characters may be linked to the story as I remember them having specific names. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[ExVicis]

I just want to play the female that kills Marat, Ubisoft why won't you let me play as the best Assassin of the Revolution?

 

[Azih]

Yes, they have been able to do it, and they could/should do it again. That is the point.

In the drop in co-op mode of a game in which the character the player actually uses never changes?

 

[Blackthorn]

From what I remember seeing (I need to go back through the info), the characters are all named.

So perhaps they are tied to the story in some fashion? Just my speculation, someone correct me if they know more.

Tried to find a better image, but here you see they appear to be (slightly) different:

Beard might be a customisation option though.

Honestly, if they are story characters and they're all male that might be even more ridiculous than four Arnos.

 

[The Technomancer]

Attack, criticize, same difference. And when it comes to matters of plot, character development etc. I do think it's an incredibly bad idea to badger creators to not create what they want. This applies to this game, SP:SOT, GTA:V etc.

I don't think they are at all. And again as I pointed out earlier, you can't just swap a female skin in place of Ezio in AC2 and have the result work at all. I can easily see the same being true for Arno in AC V.

Artistic vision literally only seems to be evoked when it comes to matters of gender and minority representation. In the Splatoon thread the other day someone mentioned how they wished it had had Mario characters, and while a dozen people said "no, these new characters are awesome, we like that it's not Mario" there wasn't a single accusation that the person "wasn't respecting Nintendo's artistic vision"

Like a good 50% of Gaming side is bitching about stuff in games and the "just let the developers do what they want, don't try and censor them man" pushback only seems to come up when its this one issue

Its really weird

 

[The Librarian]

Because of the way co-op is designed.

You may magically appear as a female assassin but your character may not magically be changed to female?

That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Bucca]

Tried to find a better image, but here you see they appear to be (slightly) different:

Beard might be a customisation option though.

Honestly, if they are story characters and they're all male that might be even more ridiculous than four Arnos.

I'm fairly certain the beard on the guy isn't new.

I think in terms of customization, it's just slightly cosmetic appearances, i.e. clothing, trinkets, etc.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If we're at that point where I may appear as female to other people but still have a male character in co-op, why not the option of making the male character female in co-op?

Because
1.Arno's animations are not anything like a female
2.If Arno's animations were to be put on a female it would most likely look awkward/half-assed
3.The solution is that they would have to re-rig and redesign of of Arno's outfits and animations to be female centric
4.But THEN they would have to create some technology where the player sees different animations than what other players see because you always see yourself as Arno.
Have you played Watch Dogs? Or MGSeacewalker?

 

[Bucca]

You may magically appear as a female assassin but your character may not magically be changed to female?

That doesn't make much sense to me.

Seamless multiplayer = no change of screen or game mode, no loading screens or anything.

Which is why they keep your character on YOUR screen as Arno, but your character on THEIR screen as someone else.

 

[maneil99]

Because
1.Arno's animations are not anything like a female
2.If Arno's animations were to be put on a female it would most likely look awkward/half-assed
3.The solution is that they would have to re-rig and redesign of of Arno's outfits and animations to be female centric
4.But THEN they would have to create some technology where the player sees different animations than what other players see because you always see yourself as Arno.
Have you played Watch Dogs? Or MGSeacewalker?

These two points are pretty good.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

If not including gender options for a protagonist in a story based game is "alienating and insulting half your userbase", where are the people asking for a male version of the protagonist in Rise of the Tomb Raider?

Spoiler

Yes, I know mine is a dumb argument but I'm using it to highlight the absurdity of the quoted post

Tomb Raider doesn't get a new protagonist every iteration, now does it?

Established characters are fine. No one is arguing to play as Natalie Drake in Uncharted (maybe Cloe in a spin off ) or Larry Croft in Tomb Raider. It is games were every new iteration has a new protagonist (Ezio trilogy excluded) that I am arguing dual characters for.

 

[SuperDowns]

Aww, how I wished FFXV started with a female protagonist.

lol it does... ZING!

 

[JDSN]

Attack, criticize, same difference. And when it comes to matters of plot, character development etc. I do think it's an incredibly bad idea to badger creators to not create what they want. This applies to this game, SP:SOT, GTA:V etc.

But what exactly makes you percieve this as an attack? What is so treatening about this that you refuse to see it as customers demanding something from a product? When people complain about 1080p and DRM its called "customers's rights", when is demanding more representation of minorities we turn into a bunch of tumblr lesbians destroying the original unique non-focus tested vision of those poor randian heroes called game developers.

 

[Blackthorn]

Because
1.Arno's animations are not anything like a female
2.If Arno's animations were to be put on a female it would most likely look awkward/half-assed
3.The solution is that they would have to re-rig and redesign of of Arno's outfits and animations to be female centric
4.But THEN they would have to create some technology where the player sees different animations than what other players see because you always see yourself as Arno.
Have you played Watch Dogs? Or MGSeacewalker?

I bet the animals in the game are really well animated and modelled.

 

[Impeccable]

[/B]

These two points are pretty good.

You can appear female in Watch Dogs.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It still all happens inside the animus. If it can be done during training, why not during a memory? It's not like there would have been 4 Arnos, so why is genderswap such an issue?

It can't happen during a memory because the story is that you are trying to relive memories as accurately as possible. Period. This isn't an rpg and posts like that are just asking for Ubisoft to change the series altogether.

 

[Zoe]

Tomb Raider doesn't get a new protagonist every iteration, now does it?

Established characters are fine. No one is arguing to play as Natalie Drake in Uncharted (maybe Cloe in a spin off ) or Larry Croft in Tomb Raider. It is games were every new iteration has a new protagonist (Ezio trilogy excluded) that I am arguing dual characters for.

If dual protagonists is what you want though, then it's not fair to laugh at the developers when they talk about the extra work necessary.

 

[captainnapalm]

But what exactly makes you percieve this as an attack? What is so treatening about this that you refuse to see it as customers demanding something from a product? When people complain about 1080p and DRM its called "customers's rights", I dont see no one rationally defending the company's vision in those situations.

Look, you can badgers devs all day for not making games the way you want them to be, as others pointed out, gamers do it all time time across a whole host of different issues.

The difference with something like representivity in games is that it is also a social and political issue, and sites like Kotaku use it create negative and potentially damaging publicity for people who make these games.

That's clearly a bit different to whining about not having more multiplayer maps or whatever, and its a bit disingenuous of people to claim they are somehow the same thing.

I dislike the idea of hurling damaging accusations at people simply because they made the game they decided it was best to make. I see this has now hit the LA Times as well. Do people really feel happy about creating all this trouble for the people who made this game because of a lack of female co-op skins? It must be really frustrating to try and create in an environment like this.

 

[figadapaura]

It can't happen during a memory because the story is that you are trying to relive memories as accurately as possible. Period. This isn't an rpg and posts like that are just asking for Ubisoft to change the series altogether.

So explain to me how 4 Arnos is accurate then, please.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I bet the animals in the game are really well animated and modelled.

I bet everything in the game is well animated and modelled. It's a good thing Ubisoft decided to have a clear focus instead of focusing on appealing to a very vocal minority, half of which doesn't know the game works in the first place.

 

[Bold One]

sounds like an incoming patch

 

[Kuldar]

Why are there four Arnos?

There aren't four Arno.

 

[dancingphlower]

I'd like to seen more minority representation as well. When was the last time an East Asian, male or female, was the lead character in a game? Sleeping Dogs is the only one that comes to mind.

 

[enzo_gt]

Violence against women is also a ratings issue in some regions / countries.

Interesting, I didn't know this was a thing. Makes a lot of sense though (I guess violence against minorities is similar as well).

 

[Ascenion]

Tomb Raider doesn't get a new protagonist every iteration, now does it?

Established characters are fine. No one is arguing to play as Natalie Drake in Uncharted (maybe Cloe in a spin off ) or Larry Croft in Tomb Raider. It is games were every new iteration has a new protagonist (Ezio trilogy excluded) that I am arguing dual characters for.

That requires either a very impersonal story (lots of you, they, them, generic title) or a hell of a lot of work as you would essentially be making 2 games. AC just isn't that kind of series.

 

[Impeccable]

It can't happen during a memory because the story is that you are trying to relive memories as accurately as possible. Period. This isn't an rpg and posts like that are just asking for Ubisoft to change the series altogether.

If you do not do the memories in co-op are the other assassins AI controlled?

 

[Bucca]

So explain to me how 4 Arnos is accurate then, please.

There isn't 4 Arnos, because it doesn't show 3 other Arnos running around all together.

You're Arno on your screen, they're Arno on their screen.

They appear as one of the other 3 guys, you appear as one of the other 3 guys.

Same thing in Watch Dogs with an invader seeing himself as Aiden and you as an NPC, and you seeing yourself as Aiden and the invader as an NPC.

 

[Azih]

Artistic vision literally only seems to be evoked when it comes to matters of gender and minority representation. In the Splatoon thread the other day someone mentioned how they wished it had had Mario characters, and while a dozen people said "no, these new characters are awesome, we like that it's not Mario" there wasn't a single accusation that the person "wasn't respecting Nintendo's artistic vision"

Like a good 50% of Gaming side is bitching about stuff in games and the "just let the developers do what they want, don't try and censor them man" pushback only seems to come up when its this one issue

Its really weird

*Shrug* Does it matter when the issue is brought up? The strength of the argument remains the same. I was consistent in this point of view when War Horse the makers of the Kickstarted Kingdom Come game were being attacked for not having non Caucasian options in their character creator.

 

[maneil99]

I'd like to seen more minority representation as well. When was the last time an East Asian, male or female, was the lead character in a game? Sleeping Dogs is the only one that comes to mind.

Not enough Indians either, make an AC in British occupied India and make an alternate revolution without Ghandi

 

[nynt9]

So explain to me how 4 Arnos is accurate then, please.

Have you ever played Saints Row 3/4 coop? This is a non-issue.