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Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers |OT| New World Order, Old World Chaos
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
Flying Toaster
Member
Yes and that makes you a bad person...
Actually now that you mentioned it I am going to use it.
I don't use it because I can't figure out which rooms I already visited and which ones I didn't when the entire map is highlighted from the beginning.
cj_iwakura
Member
Look what I found!
Some 4koma:
Dat Finnegan:
Some 4koma:
Dat Finnegan:
I only understood that he's in full moon mode, but yeah, dat Finnegan.
but also
rip, and rip Spooky. 
by the way I read that you can save him in ng+, quite nice.
by the way I read that you can save him in ng+, quite nice.
cj_iwakura
Member
I think Soul Hackers might have the most charismatic villains in any SMT game. At very least the most interesting. You don't see them for long, but they all leave a lasting impression.
Thought P4 had the most interesting villains. Soul Hackers had some interesting ones but they're all too basic.
cj_iwakura
Member
P4's are just evil, though. They have no sympathetic traits. You can relate to Naomi and Judah, at least. Kadokawa and Nishi are kind of mustache-twirling evil, but that's about it.
Is that an actual Manga?
cj_iwakura
Member
I think so. They were posted on roborasputin's tumblr.
uhm, iirc you have one main villain and then you have the final boss character that you see one time in the entire game before you finish it. I found them (or just him) more "basic" or uninteresting villains than a lot of SMT villains.
from this game, Judah or Naomi are interesting characters (the whole idea of vision quests is really nice) but I don't quite see them as villains. Finnegan is more the type of "badass villain", nothing special but I still like it. then you have Kadokura and some random summoners/demons.
I also love Kaneko's design.
in any case, < my avatar = best villain world.
P4 spoilers
Out of the SMT games I played Adachi is my favorite by far, but I also really liked Ameno/Izanami since they had good lines and I liked Izanami's motivation. Hell Izanami lasts longer than Naomi or Judah, but as you said they're not even villains.
SMT villains aren't that amazing typically tbh.
I hope this is a joke post.
Ootsuki is my favorite video game villain period. No one will surprise/fascinate me again after this guy.
And I agree with cj_iwakura, Soul Hackers has some of the most charismatic and memorable villains.
I've played P3, 4, Devil Survivor 1 and 2, Strange Journey, DDS1 and 2, Soul Hackers, Raidou 2, Nocturne, SMT IV.
It's not that I don't like the villains but a lot of them are just OK or decent.
Yeah I mean, you don't need to trash the others if you don't like them. That's how I your post sounded to me, so if it's not your intended thoughts, please forgive me.
cj_iwakura
Member
From the above, I'm surprised you didn't think DDS1&2 stood out. Jenna Angel, Margot Cuvier, Mick the Slug, Jinana, Bat... it's FULL of awesome villains.
DDS villains are probably among the best, but again they fall into the problem of not lasting too long and/or not getting much development.
cj_iwakura
Member
That's kind of Atlus' MO all the way back to SMT1. Great characters, but minimal development.
In a way, isn't that kind of what makes them memorable?
They're memorable but they could be much more. As it is the way they handle the characters is just not optimal enough, for me.
cj_iwakura
Member
I agree, I wish I could've seen more of Jinana, Tayama, Finnegan, any number of awesome SMT bads, but I think the fact that they don't get hours of expository dialogue and what not is what keeps them interesting and stops them from being caricatures.
Dragon1893
Member
The villains are good but Nemissa is just friggin' awesome.
Just saw a Portuguese mag give this a 68/100. Sad.
Just saw a Portuguese mag give this a 68/100. Sad.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
They die/mutate/convince you to join them/go crazy too soon!
Brevity is very useful to master.
cj_iwakura
Member
Apparently this was a lightning deal last night for $10 at Amazon? I wonder if anyone here bought it.
Ridiculous deal, damn.
as mentioned, DDS1 and 2 have great villains/characters. same with SMT III, characters that turned into villains you could say, given the situation.
it's true that by having more characters instead of just one the one tends to have more lines, more characterization and gets more developed but regarding P4 I just didn't like him that much.
might be that I kinda knew that he was the villain all along.
by the way, you should play P2. great game, best persona game and one of the best SMT games.
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I'm done with Soul Hackers. now I want to play the first Devil Summoner since I had the impression I was missing something while playing Soul Hackers (kuzonoha group~).
It's a really good game, loved the setting and most of the characters also it has a nice story. I wished there was more to it, more background stories for every character (party members or villains), I really enjoyed that part reletad to Six's sister, for example.
cj_iwakura
Member
The Kuzunohas basically already exist in SMT DS. It doesn't explain THAT much, but I think Madame Ginko is in it, and you get lots more Rei Reiho.
Sukeroku in Soul Hackers IS Kyouji Kuzunoha from Devil Summoner.
As the only fodder to manage to hit me with a full party wipe, twice, in this otherwise easy SMT at this point (the only boss achieving it so far being the final encounter with
), Urban Terror demons can go shove broken glass up their asses.
Moowis at the very same auto plant location after taking too long to finish him
noonespecial
Member
Is there something wrong with me if I am enjoying Soul Hackers more than SMTIV? Anyone know why SMTIV gets a lot more attention on neogaf instead of Soul Hackers? is Soul Hackers just too "old school" for most people or am I just too old?
I won't crap up this thread with any bullet points on what I dislike about SMTIV in comparison to Soul Hackers but what gives? Anyone else feel the same way? What am I "not getting" with how SMTIV is better than SH?
And yes, I will be completing SMTIV - it is still a great game, but, well, Soul Hackers is the even greater game.
I won't crap up this thread with any bullet points on what I dislike about SMTIV in comparison to Soul Hackers but what gives? Anyone else feel the same way? What am I "not getting" with how SMTIV is better than SH?
And yes, I will be completing SMTIV - it is still a great game, but, well, Soul Hackers is the even greater game.
Runs and hides.
Is there something wrong with me if I am enjoying Soul Hackers more than SMTIV? Anyone know why SMTIV gets a lot more attention on neogaf instead of Soul Hackers? is Soul Hackers just too "old school" for most people or am I just too old?
I won't crap up this thread with any bullet points on what I dislike about SMTIV in comparison to Soul Hackers but what gives? Anyone else feel the same way? What am I "not getting" with how SMTIV is better than SH?
And yes, I will be completing SMTIV - it is still a great game, but, well, Soul Hackers is the even greater game.Runs and hides.
SMT IV isn't a first person game. It has better graphics and more modern design. It's also the first mainline SMT game in 10 years after Nocturne, which was awesome. Also I think the soundtrack in SMT IV is better. Think I liked the story in SMT IV more too.
Is there something wrong with me if I am enjoying Soul Hackers more than SMTIV? Anyone know why SMTIV gets a lot more attention on neogaf instead of Soul Hackers? is Soul Hackers just too "old school" for most people or am I just too old?
I won't crap up this thread with any bullet points on what I dislike about SMTIV in comparison to Soul Hackers but what gives? Anyone else feel the same way? What am I "not getting" with how SMTIV is better than SH?
And yes, I will be completing SMTIV - it is still a great game, but, well, Soul Hackers is the even greater game.Runs and hides.
I love both of them.
But thing is that I already played Soul Hackers 10 years ago, so it lost its novelty compared to SMTIV which came as the most pleasant surprise I would ever imagine.
Also there are much more things to do in SMTIV compared to Soul Hackers, that's the only reason why I spent more time playing the former.
noonespecial
Member
1) I like random battles. I don't like the Persona'ish whack-a-monster stuff on the overworld in SMTIV. Leave out twitchy reaction skills from my turn-based RPGs and leave them in my actiony RPGs please.
2) I like having spells/skills that are HP based instead of everything being MP based (like in SMTIV). This gives me awesome tactical options that otherwise don't exist and make physical builds (strong on HP/weak on MP) for demons more viable and useful. It also actually makes healer builds for demons more useful too as I can use them more often to support the HP draining skills employed by my aggressive physical demon builds (in addition to normal healing duties).
3) I like the different demon types (Sly, Kind, Dumb, etc.) and loyalty subsystems. It is a bit obtuse at first but combined with a surprisingly good AI for demon party members the overall effect is awesome and feels like I have to play along with the demons more than just summon them and completely control them. I have to somewhat negotiate with them more in-game by bribing them with gifts or earning their loyalty through combat. I like that if I tell a "Kind" demon to attack that the demon may basically tell me to go screw off and completely refuse my command and I lose loyalty. And the friendly AI has surprised me - I actually have taken on bosses without having full control over my party with some demons set to "Go" so they determine their own actions and I do this sometimes with completely loyal demons because if they have a low Agility and will go later in the round I may want them to decide what to do based on the actions of friendly and enemy demons moving before them. So there are tactical reasons to actually let them decide what to do sometimes. SMTIV's demons are brainless and just do what I tell them to do and don't give me any lip. I like my demons telling me to go f*** myself sometimes.
4) Six party members and actual front and back rows is a good thing. Makes party positioning important and it brings more strategy into the fights.
I do like some things in SMTIV more for other reasons (more customizable demon fusion system and main character inheritable skills as examples) but I just don't get the lack of love for Soul Hackers when I am finding it to be so great.
My only big criticism of Soul Hackers is that I wish it was more difficult and although I haven't won the game yet I think I am near the end, so my second criticism would be the length (kind of short). SMTIV is brutal and I wish Soul Hackers crushed me more often than it does and the length of SMTIV is great.
I can understand. This is my first run through of Soul Hackers and it is an older design.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
SMT4 does have ranbats most of the time, you just can see them. It's easily the game's worst flaw.
SMT4's much more "extreme" in the balancing. Such risk-based calculations would be less of a weighable risk or meaningful against the rather binary flow of fight outcomes.
insignia16
Member
Is there something wrong with me if I am enjoying Soul Hackers more than SMTIV? Anyone know why SMTIV gets a lot more attention on neogaf instead of Soul Hackers? is Soul Hackers just too "old school" for most people or am I just too old?
I won't crap up this thread with any bullet points on what I dislike about SMTIV in comparison to Soul Hackers but what gives? Anyone else feel the same way? What am I "not getting" with how SMTIV is better than SH?
And yes, I will be completing SMTIV - it is still a great game, but, well, Soul Hackers is the even greater game.Runs and hides.
I can totally agree with you that had more fun playing Soul Hackers. About two months ago I did a second playthrough of the game and had a blast with it. Even though I was OP beyond belief since you keep your demons, MAG, and money in NG+ there were at least two times during the playthrough where I died due to a mistake on my part during a battle.
Even in my first playthrough I had more of a challenge in SH than SMTIV mainly since the SH isn't as easy to break as the latter. Lastly, Soul Hackers just feels cooler. I could just be the biggest sucker for Cyberpunk but that's my take on it.
I find the demon personality type deal to be hit-and-miss (Dumb and Calm demons tend to just annoy me, as using "Go" is usually the only reliable option with them). In regards to the loyalty system, I would have less of a problem if it worked in a manner comparable to the Raidou Kuzunoha games, in which case loyalty doesn't decrease once maxed out, basically amounting to earning their trust before they will obey your every command. Yet, in Soul Hackers, loyalty can actually decrease even at max if a demon decides at random that they don't like what you asked them to do, even if they had no problems with performing the same action in the same situation previously.
Giving acquired demons more agency as Soul Hackers does can be argued as doing more to give them character, yet also gets in the way making combat more practical, particularly if the player prefers to handle their own tactics. If the player considers their demons to be tools at best and mere fusion fodder at worst, not putting up with backtalk might be seen as preferable, hence so many praises being sung for SMT IV.
As for me, I picked up SMT IV while it was on sale recently, but won't be starting it until later this month, so it's too early for me to draw any conclusions on how I think Soul Hackers compares to it specifically.
noonespecial
Member
Yes, SMT4 does have a lot more risk/reward than Soul Hackers which I sometimes like, sometimes don't like. I never played SM3:Nocturne (I would like to someday) so I have no experience with the "press turn" system that gets so highly praised around here. So SMT4 is my first introduction to that type of battle system. To be honest I'm not sure how much I like it or not? It does force me to think before I act in battles, which I do like, but at times it can be damn frustrating with a complete party wipe. I think most of my problem may be that I am somewhat at the mid-game or early to mid-game so I'm past the very early part where enemy demons tend to have a harder time one-shotting me and my party (they lack a lot of area effect attacks) but I'm not yet at a higher tier with demons or with fusing them to allow me to more carefully craft my party to minimize or remove the elemental weaknesses. So perhaps part of my problem with the press turn system is it feels like a lot of cheap deaths where I am at in the mid-game if that makes sense. Either that or I just suck. But it does sure feel nice steamrolling over enemy parties when I get all of my actions off exactly as planned. Maybe SMT4 is more of a finesse game than Soul Hackers? I dunno...
Soul Hackers has been an easier game to me than SMT4 and I haven't done too much grinding or followed any guides (well, not much). About the only grinding I've done in SH was to get more MAG and to recruit demons. I did this when my levels were in the early 40s or so. Not that Soul Hackers has been especially a cakewalk! I've just gotten my ass handed to me a lot more with SMT4. Could be I just "get" the battle system in SH more than SMT4.
I do agree that the environment is "cooler" in SH than in SMT4 but I do really like SMT4's grimdark post-apolocalyptic future as well. I'm a middle aged guy who grew up in the 80s and 90s so probably I have a soft spot for cheesy 90s cyberpunk...
I see your points about the demon personalities and I also see how it could go both ways with some preferring SH versus SMT4 and demon control. Probably it comes down to preference and both games their their good and bad points with how demon "personalities" are handled. I also somewhat agree with the frustration about maxed out loyalty demons sometimes not following orders but maybe I just view it more as an in-game role playing event, so that even though a demon did the same command before, maybe he or she is tired of putting up with my crap and just doesn't want to do it no matter how "loyal" they are. I haven't found maxed out loyalty demons refusing my commands too often in my playthrough so far but that may be because my playing style with SH is that I don't tend to give commands which are different from the base demon's personality type anyway so that probably helps them to not refuse my commands too much. For example, my healer "kind" demons I keep in the back row so they can concentrate on healing and spell casting so they aren't generally even in a position to attack anyway (which they don't like to do).
I hope nobody reading this thinks that I feel badly about SMT4 - it is a great game. I just happen to really have fallen in love with Soul Hackers and I have simply wondered if its just me that really likes Soul Hackers in comparison or if I'm just not seeing something about SMT4 that everyone else is seeing (and not seeing what everyone hates about Soul Hackers). So its probably a nostalgia/old-school RPG thing going on with me. You all make some very good points though and I am appreciating this discussion. It could be that SMT4 just hasn't "clicked" the same way with me like Soul Hackers did.
And I am eagerly looking forward to finishing SMT4 as soon as I'm done with my first Soul Hackers playthrough. I have some unfinished business with quite a few demons over there and I suspect not everything is as it seems in Mikado...
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Yes, SMT4 does have a lot more risk/reward than Soul Hackers which I sometimes like, sometimes don't like. I never played SM3:Nocturne (I would like to someday) so I have no experience with the "press turn" system that gets so highly praised around here. So SMT4 is my first introduction to that type of battle system. To be honest I'm not sure how much I like it or not? It does force me to think before I act in battles, which I do like, but at times it can be damn frustrating with a complete party wipe. I think most of my problem may be that I am somewhat at the mid-game or early to mid-game so I'm past the very early part where enemy demons tend to have a harder time one-shotting me and my party (they lack a lot of area effect attacks) but I'm not yet at a higher tier with demons or with fusing them to allow me to more carefully craft my party to minimize or remove the elemental weaknesses. So perhaps part of my problem with the press turn system is it feels like a lot of cheap deaths where I am at in the mid-game if that makes sense. Either that or I just suck. But it does sure feel nice steamrolling over enemy parties when I get all of my actions off exactly as planned. Maybe SMT4 is more of a finesse game than Soul Hackers? I dunno...
Soul Hackers has been an easier game to me than SMT4 and I haven't done too much grinding or followed any guides (well, not much). About the only grinding I've done in SH was to get more MAG and to recruit demons. I did this when my levels were in the early 40s or so. Not that Soul Hackers has been especially a cakewalk! I've just gotten my ass handed to me a lot more with SMT4. Could be I just "get" the battle system in SH more than SMT4.
I do agree that the environment is "cooler" in SH than in SMT4 but I do really like SMT4's grimdark post-apolocalyptic future as well. I'm a middle aged guy who grew up in the 80s and 90s so probably I have a soft spot for cheesy 90s cyberpunk...
I see your points about the demon personalities and I also see how it could go both ways with some preferring SH versus SMT4 and demon control. Probably it comes down to preference and both games their their good and bad points with how demon "personalities" are handled. I also somewhat agree with the frustration about maxed out loyalty demons sometimes not following orders but maybe I just view it more as an in-game role playing event, so that even though a demon did the same command before, maybe he or she is tired of putting up with my crap and just doesn't want to do it no matter how "loyal" they are. I haven't found maxed out loyalty demons refusing my commands too often in my playthrough so far but that may be because my playing style with SH is that I don't tend to give commands which are different from the base demon's personality type anyway so that probably helps them to not refuse my commands too much. For example, my healer "kind" demons I keep in the back row so they can concentrate on healing and spell casting so they aren't generally even in a position to attack anyway (which they don't like to do).
I hope nobody reading this thinks that I feel badly about SMT4 - it is a great game. I just happen to really have fallen in love with Soul Hackers and I have simply wondered if its just me that really likes Soul Hackers in comparison or if I'm just not seeing something about SMT4 that everyone else is seeing (and not seeing what everyone hates about Soul Hackers). So its probably a nostalgia/old-school RPG thing going on with me. You all make some very good points though and I am appreciating this discussion. It could be that SMT4 just hasn't "clicked" the same way with me like Soul Hackers did.
And I am eagerly looking forward to finishing SMT4 as soon as I'm done with my first Soul Hackers playthrough. I have some unfinished business with quite a few demons over there and I suspect not everything is as it seems in Mikado...
If Press Turn is alcohol, SMT4's take on it is 80% firewater. It's very 'distilled" and has less of the flavors (or those other flavors have less influence on the outcome) than SMT3 and DDS1/2s did. It's different.
Yes, SMT4 does have a lot more risk/reward than Soul Hackers which I sometimes like, sometimes don't like. I never played SM3:Nocturne (I would like to someday) so I have no experience with the "press turn" system that gets so highly praised around here. So SMT4 is my first introduction to that type of battle system. To be honest I'm not sure how much I like it or not? It does force me to think before I act in battles, which I do like, but at times it can be damn frustrating with a complete party wipe. I think most of my problem may be that I am somewhat at the mid-game or early to mid-game so I'm past the very early part where enemy demons tend to have a harder time one-shotting me and my party (they lack a lot of area effect attacks) but I'm not yet at a higher tier with demons or with fusing them to allow me to more carefully craft my party to minimize or remove the elemental weaknesses. So perhaps part of my problem with the press turn system is it feels like a lot of cheap deaths where I am at in the mid-game if that makes sense. Either that or I just suck. But it does sure feel nice steamrolling over enemy parties when I get all of my actions off exactly as planned. Maybe SMT4 is more of a finesse game than Soul Hackers? I dunno...
Soul Hackers has been an easier game to me than SMT4 and I haven't done too much grinding or followed any guides (well, not much). About the only grinding I've done in SH was to get more MAG and to recruit demons. I did this when my levels were in the early 40s or so. Not that Soul Hackers has been especially a cakewalk! I've just gotten my ass handed to me a lot more with SMT4. Could be I just "get" the battle system in SH more than SMT4.
I do agree that the environment is "cooler" in SH than in SMT4 but I do really like SMT4's grimdark post-apolocalyptic future as well. I'm a middle aged guy who grew up in the 80s and 90s so probably I have a soft spot for cheesy 90s cyberpunk...
I see your points about the demon personalities and I also see how it could go both ways with some preferring SH versus SMT4 and demon control. Probably it comes down to preference and both games their their good and bad points with how demon "personalities" are handled. I also somewhat agree with the frustration about maxed out loyalty demons sometimes not following orders but maybe I just view it more as an in-game role playing event, so that even though a demon did the same command before, maybe he or she is tired of putting up with my crap and just doesn't want to do it no matter how "loyal" they are. I haven't found maxed out loyalty demons refusing my commands too often in my playthrough so far but that may be because my playing style with SH is that I don't tend to give commands which are different from the base demon's personality type anyway so that probably helps them to not refuse my commands too much. For example, my healer "kind" demons I keep in the back row so they can concentrate on healing and spell casting so they aren't generally even in a position to attack anyway (which they don't like to do).
I hope nobody reading this thinks that I feel badly about SMT4 - it is a great game. I just happen to really have fallen in love with Soul Hackers and I have simply wondered if its just me that really likes Soul Hackers in comparison or if I'm just not seeing something about SMT4 that everyone else is seeing (and not seeing what everyone hates about Soul Hackers). So its probably a nostalgia/old-school RPG thing going on with me. You all make some very good points though and I am appreciating this discussion. It could be that SMT4 just hasn't "clicked" the same way with me like Soul Hackers did.
And I am eagerly looking forward to finishing SMT4 as soon as I'm done with my first Soul Hackers playthrough. I have some unfinished business with quite a few demons over there and I suspect not everything is as it seems in Mikado...
I hear you.
Actually I found much more things to criticize in SMTIV than in Soul Hackers: visible random enemies, the new demon design, Burroughs, the lack of dungeons, the fusion app instead of an actual Cathedral of Shadows, the useless demon alignment...
The only flaw of Soul Hackers is being a short game. I love its retro feeling, the classic 1st person dungeon crawling, the 6 party battles, the use of magnetite to keep the demons summoned, the demon's nature, Victor and Mary, the cyber punk touch of the game...
Despite all that, over all I prefer slightly SMTIV in which I already clocked more than 500 hours and I'm still playing it. Mainline games always been darker, more consistent and engaging than the spin-off no matter how good they are.
Soul Hackers is one of my favorite spin-offs beside SMT if... and the original Devil Summoner. Almost everything is unique and memorable in these games but it's always a short experience.
buddha0991
Member
^How do you feel about the Raidou games?
Crap stats and mediocre skills, but dat 0 Mag and Reflect everything but almighty. This along with my Dragon Zeed will be great grinding demons and new game+ demons.
Crap stats and mediocre skills, but dat 0 Mag and Reflect everything but almighty. This along with my Dragon Zeed will be great grinding demons and new game+ demons.
I like the story, music and atmosphere. Gameplay? Not so much.
It got better in the second game though but I still prefer turn based battles over real time.
Also, both of them have amazing and memorable final bosses.
Yeah that Frost Five is very convenient for grinding.
BTW I booted the game last night to start NG+ and guess what? I couldn't find my save data.
Whelp, I have to start over *sigh*
buddha0991
Member
Now I just have to grind to level 83 to get Izanami, ugh. Why couldn't they at least populate the Beelzebub room with those stronger demons that spawn when you open the doors and chests after you beat Beelzebub. Now I have like level 60 demons to grind on till i get to 83, I'm 80 now, and it takes forever.
and that sucks man
Hey on this game, there is the compendium on New Game+ so I can summon my Dragon Zeed and Frost Five on my new playthrough right?
Yes the level restriction is lifted in NG+, so you will be able to summon them right when you encounter Victor, provided you have the cash for it of course.
buddha0991
Member
I JUST GOT FUCKING MUDOONED. THANK YOU SOUL HACKERS. THANK YOU NERGAL. I LOST LIKE TWO HOURS OF GRINDING.
insignia16
Member
You may want to invest in that "Save anywhere app" once you're able to buy more apps for your COMP. Saving takes less than a second so it isn't much a nuisance to do so after every 1-3 battles. The worst is Moh Shuvuu and Last Resort; early on in the game if you can't one-hit her then don't be surprised when you die before the end of the turn.
The golden rule of classic megaten: insta kill gear protection is always a priority over defense.
Never forget that.
Red Pencil
Member
+1 this advice. Made grinding in the game more enjoyable for me knowing I didn't have to worry about a cheap game over.
buddha0991
Member
I KNOW MAN BUT IM SO FAR IN THE GAME I THOUGHT I KNEW BETTER...ANYWAYS, got back on track and got my Izanami. Also this happened.
I love Atlus
cj_iwakura
Member
You know what's funny? Atlus USA must have really spiced it up, because Tom(the fan translation's writer) said the conversations were exceedingly dull and he wanted to keep that intact.
I'm glad Atlus USA got to do it.