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[sigrad]

Still not worth almost $800.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

It is. But it's not the power jump we are used to (unless you were nintendo fan 2001-2011).

Results so far indicate it's the biggest mid-gen jump I've ever seen not even one x was doubling frame rate and that's universally considered the biggest mid-gen upgrade.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Results so far indicate it's the biggest mid-gen jump I've ever seen not even one x was doubling frame rate and that's universally considered the biggest mid-gen upgrade.

The One X still had that weak Jaguar CPU.

No question this is gonna be the biggest mid-gen upgrade when you add up the "big 3"

- 67% more GPU cores
- RDNA 4 RT
- PSSR

 

[SweetTooth]

It is. But it's not the power jump we are used to (unless you were nintendo fan 2001-2011).

Just forget about the power jumps of the past, won't happen again for anything (even PC). Nvidia latest and greatest $2000 GPU will be a marginal upgrade to their current one.

 

[Bojji]

Results so far indicate it's the biggest mid-gen jump I've ever seen not even one x was doubling frame rate and that's universally considered the biggest mid-gen upgrade.

One X was able to render game that was 900p on Xbox One at native 3840x2160 (RDR2) - this requires more than 4x more power. Pro so far keeps resolutions the same.

The One X still had that weak Jaguar CPU.

No question this is gonna be the biggest mid-gen upgrade when you add up the "big 3"

- 67% more GPU cores
- RDNA 4 RT
- PSSR

Jaguar in one X was 31% faster, not maybe 10%. Plus 4GB of RAM more and massive jump in memory bandwidth. PS5 Pro is not even close to power jump like this (and all that for 500$, same MSRP as base console!).

 

[DeepEnigma]

Now the argument is back to native resolutions. They didn't have AI tech back then, or they would have used it. This is to provide the DLSS like tech that people rave about, but not when it's PSSR I suppose.

Painfully transparent.

 

[Bojji]

Now the argument is back to native resolutions. They didn't have AI tech back then, or they would have used it. This is to provide the DLSS like tech that people rave about, but not when it's PSSR I suppose.

Painfully transparent.

If they had ML reconstruction they wouldn't bother with native 4k in RDR2 - they would have used this 4.5x power jump to make game look much better (sadly with shit cpu, no room for framerate improvements), they don't have much room with mere 45% upgrade (1.45x). People saying that PS5 Pro is the biggest mid upgrade ever are just wrong/full of shit, in fact it's the worst one.

 

[DeepEnigma]

If they had ML reconstruction they wouldn't bother with native 4k in RDR2 - they would have used this 4.5x power jump to make game look much better (sadly with shit cpu, no room for framerate improvements), they don't have much room with mere 45% upgrade (1.45x). People saying that PS5 Pro is the biggest mid upgrade ever are just wrong/full of shit, in fact it's the worst one.

No, they would not have. This is Rockstar we are talking about here. They can't be fucked to do a 60fps patch for the game.

You're being painfully obtuse in this entire thread. On purpose.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Still not worth almost $800.

Could I interest you in this...

 

[DeepEnigma]

Could I interest you in this...

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

 

[Crispy Gamer]

One X was able to render game that was 900p on Xbox One at native 3840x2160 (RDR2) - this requires more than 4x more power. Pro so far keeps resolutions the same.



Jaguar in one X was 31% faster, not maybe 10%. Plus 4GB of RAM more and massive jump in memory bandwidth. PS5 Pro is not even close to power jump like this (and all that for 500$, same MSRP as base console!).

Notice how I said "results" obviously one x brute forced its way to amazing results but we are effectively getting a 4k(and sometimes better)quality picture @60 fps with pro even if it's not native it looks just as good or better.

 

[Bojji]

Notice how I said "results" obviously one x brute forced its way to amazing results but we are effectively getting a 4k(and sometimes better)quality picture @60 fps with pro even if it's not native it looks just as good or better.

Results are impressive, especially in this game. But it really objectively don't beat power jump One X got, in pure hardware AND results - for the same amount of money base console launched (and with disc drive, lol). With PS4 there is room for debate, developers were often lazy with this console and memory bandwidth/size jump wasn't good enough for some games for bigger improvements.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Results are impressive, especially in this game. But it really objectively don't beat power jump One X got, in pure hardware AND results - for the same amount of money base console launched (and with disc drive, lol). With PS4 there is room for debate, developers were often lazy with this console and memory bandwidth/size jump wasn't good enough for some games for bigger improvements.

That's because the XB1 was so weak. Now compare this to the S.

Right.

 

[PaintTinJr]

We all have different expectations I didn't expect we'd get these results this soon because we know things are only going to get better over time since it's ML based.

For me, I'm still surprised, not because it looks really bad, but because it seem so out of character for a high quality Japanese developer to not re-balance their renderer first and replace troublesome ancient fx and increase rendering resolution in source data and instead march straight onto using the new crutch, which can't fix the ancient fx source issue.

Compared and contrasted to team Asobi's technical efforts on the base PS5 that look pixel perfect in Astro Bot, Square by their own previous gen standards and the general philosophy in rendering we see in all Nintendo first party stuff, and have seen historically from Japanese developers through the generations to provide clean and complimentary imagery from background to foreground, it feels like the pressure of the sales under performing and OLED user criticism of 60fps mode - despite the game being turn based or palatial action pace not needing 60 - has got to Square, as the tweet looks like an intended acknowledgement of a capitulation to DF's arbitrary and nonsense technical demands for their game since launch just to fix the game's underperforming sales with some DF promotion.

Me personally I think the game already looked and played great at 30fp and would have rather seen the Pro version improve the engine on visuals at 30fps even more before using PSSR.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Jaguar in one X was 31% faster, not maybe 10%. Plus 4GB of RAM more and massive jump in memory bandwidth. PS5 Pro is not even close to power jump like this (and all that for 500$, same MSRP as base console!).

I'm not sure why you're constantly trying to downplay the PS5 Pro.

Making the argument that it's the weakest jump in console generations lacks a lot of much needed nuance, the PS4 to PS4 Pro, and likewise the Xbox One to One X had a much higher jump in GPU performance, size and bandwidth, that's because they needed to, as at the time it was the only way to increase performance and IQ.

The PS5 Pro for what it's aiming to do simply doesn't need this massive jump in raw compute or rasterization thanks to ML and AI upsampling. I remember people were downplaying the PS5's ray-tracing capabilities at the start of the generation, and now we have the Pro which is offering 2 to 3x ray-tracing performance which is a significant upgrade.

This isn't a jump from 1080p to 4K like the previous generation, it's more focused on 30 FPS to 60 FPS whilst maintaining IQ and maintaining or adding in ray-tracing effects, which the Pro is doing very successfully. These are not arbitrary benchmarks either, it's what most gamers care about.

 

[shamoomoo]

One X was able to render game that was 900p on Xbox One at native 3840x2160 (RDR2) - this requires more than 4x more power. Pro so far keeps resolutions the same.



Jaguar in one X was 31% faster, not maybe 10%. Plus 4GB of RAM more and massive jump in memory bandwidth. PS5 Pro is not even close to power jump like this (and all that for 500$, same MSRP as base console!).

The Pro is like 60% and 50% faster in terms of texture and ROP fiil-rates vs the base PS5.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

Results are impressive, especially in this game. But it really objectively don't beat power jump One X got, in pure hardware AND results - for the same amount of money base console launched (and with disc drive, lol). With PS4 there is room for debate, developers were often lazy with this console and memory bandwidth/size jump wasn't good enough for some games for bigger improvements.

Bro you are adding in tons of caveats I'm just talking about the results/real world performance but it's OK we just disagree but in a different conversation just talking raw numbers then absolutely one x is the biggest jump on paper but my point is we can't just look at raw numbers to quantify real world performance. Microsoft thought they would have a real world 30% rendering and 25% memory bandwidth performance advantage just looking at PS5 spec reveal but we all see how that turned out.

 

[shamoomoo]

That's because the XB1 was so weak. Now compare this to the S.

Right.

Well,in terms of fill-rates,the Series consoles are roughly comparable to the XboneX and XboneS. The Series X is about 3x in terms of both fill-rates and 2.5x the bandwidth vs the S.

The uplift of the Xbone X vs S are a little over 4x in terms of bandwidth,4x the texture and 2x pixel fill-rate in favor of the XboneX vs the base Xbone.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Jaguar in one X was 31% faster, not maybe 10%. Plus 4GB of RAM more and massive jump in memory bandwidth. PS5 Pro is not even close to power jump like this (and all that for 500$, same MSRP as base console!).

I don't know if you are doing this on purpose.... but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't.

There are a lot of mitigating factors to consider when looking at the last gen and this gen. And I would think you are well learned in these matters enough to know everything I am about to say... so it makes me wonder why you are saying what you are saying to begin with.

1. I think it would be obvious by now to anyone that has remotely followed tech over the last 2 decades, that (pardon the pun), Moores law is dead.
   
   PS1 to PS2:~10x more powerful
   PS2 to PS3: ~35x more powerful
   PS3 to PS4: ~8x more powerful
   PS4 to PS5: ~5.5x more powerful
   
   It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what has been going on, and you can do the same for GPUs too. That brings me to the next point
   
   
   
   
2. If the laws of physics means we can no longer just throw ever bigger processors and ever-rising clocks at the problem anymore, it simply means that the next technological leap would be to make "smarter" processors. And that is literally what is being done now. The PS5pro, doesn't need to be 4x more powerful than the base PS5 to justify its cost, especially when compared to say the One X, because we simply don't live in that world anymore.
   
   Because now, its a results game, not a numbers game. Eg. If running native rez, and that is your only option, how much power do you need to take PS5 games from say 1080p to 4K. That would be about 4x the power right? So we are talking about like a an actual 40TF (or 80TF dual issue) GPU. For some perspective.... that's 2TF less than the 4090.
   
   The 4090... an almost $2000 GPU.
   
   You don't see how crazy what you are expecting sounds?
   
   So now, we have smarter processors, giving the perceptual results of a 400%+ performance uplift, while using less than 70% more actual hardware. That is what you are paying for. This is the world we live in now. If you are going to make comparisons and throw numbers around, then please, be consistent, and look around you. Sony, or the PlayStation does not exist in a vacuum.
   
   
   
3. And lastly... I am not calling you ignorant (pity I have to make such a disclaimer before I even make the point since we have some super sensitive people around these parts), but that point about how much it cost and how much stuff cost before... is an ignorant statement to make. Why? It's simply not accounting for the ridiculous rise in chip costs. eg.
   
   - 28nm (PS4) = $3K/wafer
   - 16nm (PS4pro) = $6k/Wafer
   - 7nm (PS5) = $10K+/Wafer
   - 4nm (PS5pro) = $18k - $20k+/Wafer
   
   And somehow, you expect prices to remain the same? How is that even possible? The same size chip, on a PS5pro vs a PS4 (~300mm2) will literally cost 6x+ more money. So how in the world would you suggest that they give you the kinda gains you are expecting, without being smart about things?

 

[hinch7]

I just don't get the focus on the cpu, most performance modes so far have only reduced resolution and graphical settings to hit 60fps and many of those games were not originally designed to have a 60fps option in the first place.

If they gave it a better CPU you might have seen more modes with 120fps options instead. And games from locked at 30 to 60+. Which would've been really nice.

I guess that will take away the sheen from PS6, or next gen whenever that releases.

 

[Gaiff]

And somehow, you expect prices to remain the same? How is that even possible? The same size chip, on a PS5pro vs a PS4 (~300mm2) will literally cost 6x+ more money. So how in the world would you suggest that they give you the kinda gains you are expecting, without being smart about things?

I didn't get anywhere from his post that he expects prices to remain the same. He's arguing the Xbox One X was a bigger jump in power and it arguably was. Problem was, of course, that it stayed stuck at 30fps anyway. However, games often went from sub-1080p to 1800p-4K, which was an enormous jump. The price increase was also comparatively smaller.

For what it's worth, I don't care all that much about resolution if I'm still forced to play at 30fps anyway. I sooner would have taken 1080p/60 over 4K30. Whether the Xbox One X was a more satisfying upgrade than the Pro is a different matter...but the Pro also upgrades from a much better and balanced console than the X1 so...

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I didn't get anywhere from his post that he expects prices to remain the same. He's arguing the Xbox One X was a bigger jump in power and it arguably was. Problem was, of course, that it stayed stuck at 30fps anyway. However, games often went from sub-1080p to 1800p-4K, which was an enormous jump. The price increase was also comparatively smaller.

Ohhhh... he did.

He said all those gains of the One X and PS4pro, were made while still being at the base consoles' launch prices. I was simply pointing out why that was something they could do then but not now.

And of course, the price increase then was comparatively smaller... I think I just showed why that was?

For what it's worth, I don't care all that much about resolution if I'm still forced to play at 30fps anyway. Whether the Xbox One X was a more satisfying upgrade than the Pro is a different matter...but the Pro also upgrades from a much better and balanced console than the X1 so...

Now this is a different matter. And we are hovering around subjectivity here. So I won't get into that. What value someone sees or takes from all of this is up to them... but if we are talking about numbers... there is not subjectiveness there.

 

[Gaiff]

Ohhhh... he did.

He said all those gains of the One X and PS4pro, were made while still being at the base consoles' launch prices. I was simply pointing out why that was something they could do then but not now.

And of course, the price increase then was comparatively smaller... I think I just showed why that was?

How did you get from that that he was expecting prices to remain the same? He states the upgrade was bigger all the while prices remained the same. That’s him pointing the cold hard truth. In your very case, you were expecting it to be $500. That’s expecting prices to remain the same.

Not sure whether Bojji expected it to be $500 or not, but saying that he was unreasonable with his price expectations based on these posts doesn’t seem correct since he didn’t call a price or even implied his expectations. Maybe in other posts he did, but not in this one.

 

[Radical_3d]

It is. But it's not the power jump we are used to (unless you were nintendo fan 2001-2011).

It’s not. But that’s not on Sony but because the speed and cost of technology nowadays. We’re in the sad part of the evolution. What happened to graphane?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

How did you get from that that he was expecting prices to remain the same? He states the upgrade was bigger all the while prices remained lower. That’s him pointing the cold hard truth. In your very case, you were expecting it to be $500. That’s expecting prices to remain the same.

And in hindsight, that was very stupid of me. Because even I then was not taking into account how chip prices are going up. But what makes any of us here worth anything, is an ability to know when wrong on something, admit it, learn from it, and adjust. I have done that. In retrospect, it was really stuof me to have overlooked that... even when people like Mibu no ookami was screaming it form the rooftops. But when shit like this happens, the smart thing to do is take a step back and try and understand why.

And all I am pointing out to him saying that, while its a factual statement to make, there are (as I said) mitigating factors to consider as to why what happened or worked then, simply wouldn't work now.

Not sure whether Bojji expected it to be $500 or not, but saying that he was unreasonable with his price expectations based on these posts doesn’t seem correct since he didn’t call a price or even implied his expectations. Maybe in other posts he did, but not in this one.

I don't get how you don't see it here... but he was clearly using the previous gen upgrades and their price in relation to the launch versions to point out how with the PS5pro we arent even getting those kinda physical gains and yet the price is higher.

And that is a wholeheartedly unreasonable thing to say (even if its true) and I have shown why.

Like come on, some people... and this is what I think whenever I see them do it... talk like if sony could throw in a 490 class GPU and a 5800X3D CPU in there and make a system for under $500 they wouldn't have done it. Whereas, Sony's single biggest issue, every single time they make a console, is how they can get the most power into the smallest upfront cost. And that problem, is becoming increasingly difficult to solve at a $500ish pricepoint.

 

[SweetTooth]

I don't know if you are doing this on purpose.... but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't.

There are a lot of mitigating factors to consider when looking at the last gen and this gen. And I would think you are well learned in these matters enough to know everything I am about to say... so it makes me wonder why you are saying what you are saying to begin with.

1. I think it would be obvious by now to anyone that has remotely followed tech over the last 2 decades, that (pardon the pun), Moores law is dead.
   
   PS1 to PS2:~10x more powerful
   PS2 to PS3: ~35x more powerful
   PS3 to PS4: ~8x more powerful
   PS4 to PS5: ~5.5x more powerful
   
   It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what has been going on, and you can do the same for GPUs too. That brings me to the next point
   
   
   
   
2. If the laws of physics means we can no longer just throw ever bigger processors and ever-rising clocks at the problem anymore, it simply means that the next technological leap would be to make "smarter" processors. And that is literally what is being done now. The PS5pro, doesn't need to be 4x more powerful than the base PS5 to justify its cost, especially when compared to say the One X, because we simply don't live in that world anymore.
   
   Because now, its a results game, not a numbers game. Eg. If running native rez, and that is your only option, how much power do you need to take PS5 games from say 1080p to 4K. That would be about 4x the power right? So we are talking about like a an actual 40TF (or 80TF dual issue) GPU. For some perspective.... that's 2TF less than the 4090.
   
   The 4090... an almost $2000 GPU.
   
   You don't see how crazy what you are expecting sounds?
   
   So now, we have smarter processors, giving the perceptual results of a 400%+ performance uplift, while using less than 70% more actual hardware. That is what you are paying for. This is the world we live in now. If you are going to make comparisons and throw numbers around, then please, be consistent, and look around you. Sony, or the PlayStation does not exist in a vacuum.
   
   
   
3. And lastly... I am not calling you ignorant (pity I have to make such a disclaimer before I even make the point since we have some super sensitive people around these parts), but that point about how much it cost and how much stuff cost before... is an ignorant statement to make. Why? It's simply not accounting for the ridiculous rise in chip costs. eg.
   
   - 28nm (PS4) = $3K/wafer
   - 16nm (PS4pro) = $6k/Wafer
   - 7nm (PS5) = $10K+/Wafer
   - 4nm (PS5pro) = $18k - $20k+/Wafer
   
   And somehow, you expect prices to remain the same? How is that even possible? The same size chip, on a PS5pro vs a PS4 (~300mm2) will literally cost 6x+ more money. So how in the world would you suggest that they give you the kinda gains you are expecting, without being smart about things?

Beautifully worded response. Thank you

 

[Rudius]

Way worse mountain water reflections wtf!?

Mountaingate

 

[Rudius]

Lmfao

I don''t get it