Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Why do we need anyone to tell us that? It's a mid-tier GPU and you're out there acting like it's secretly a PS6.
DF - Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth: PS5 Pro vs PS5 - A Vast Improvement At 60FPS
- Thread starter HeisenbergFX4
- Start date
MacReady13
Member
All he is speculating on in this pod is what he has been told from his insider mates. And people that actually have the Pro and are using it.
MacReady13
Member
Where have I said it's a PS6?
HeisenbergFX4
Member
We have had people on this very forum know devs with it in hand for awhile now and tell people this very thing to not judge it based on specs and wait to see it perform
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Clearly, you know what a hyperbole is. Point is, it doesn't have some super duper secret power that no one is suspecting.
MacReady13
Member
OK so what point are you trying to make exactly? I'm saying the PS5 Pro will be better/more powerful than what many clowns are saying it will NOT be, and you're trying to say what exactly...?
I mean, are you trying to dunk on people wanting a Pro? Do you want people to get a PC instead? Wait for the PS6? Laugh at people upgrading? What point it is you are trying to make by questioning/lampooning what I wrote?
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
No, I'm saying it's a mid-tier GPU and we don't need anyone to tell us how "truly powerful it is". We've known for months and what we've seen so far is in line with what those of us who actually know how hardware works expected.
So MLID can surprise the idiots all he wants. He won't surprise anyone who bothered doing their research.
The one wild card was always PSSR.
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MacReady13
Member
Well he certainly surprised this idiot cause from all the chatter online, the Pro seemed like a joke of an upgrade. Considering what I'm paying for it as opposed to the equivalent PC, I'm happy to shell out for a dedicated gaming console.
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
Wasn't the PS5 GPU mid against the high 12TF of the XsX? ...because we all needed that powerfulness explained, didn't we?
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
If you bought into the TFLOPs=performance narrative like a fool, yes.
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
What like you are doing, now?
Do you then think the leaks that say the Pro can do sparse matrix maths - making it better at matrix maths than any AMD or Nvidia gamer GPU - are wrong?
Do you also believe that the 2 Rays in BVH8 on the Pro vs Nvidia's BVH4 with 4 rays doesn't allow a 2x to 3x increase in RT performance on the Pro as Cerny claimed - making it far more capable than a RX 7700XT, and then what about the 300TOPs and dual issue with rapid pack maths combined with those other things, does that still make it vanilla AMD hardware that has expected performance?
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I'm buying into what Cerny said. If you keep being disingenuous and using strawmen, you might as well not bother replying.
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PaintTinJr
Gold Member
How can you be buying into what Cerny was saying and still going along with Bojji's take that it is the weakest upgrade that needs no explaining? The two positions are in contradiction, and we don't even know if how the 300TOPs is consistent with the CUs and clocks, or is it an NPU in its own right? or some other non symmetrical design oddity.
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Leaks suggested the AI performance is an NPU.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Your utter inability to read and form coherent arguments is frankly getting tiresome and I grow bored of your word salads that say absolutely nothing. Do you actually bother reading the posts of the people you reply to? Or are you doing what you did with DF and just not reading but replying a bunch of nonsense?
This is what I said in response to it being compared to a 7800 XT.
Now against the 7700 XT.
Where did you get that I was going along with what Bojji said in this thread? My stance hasn't changed for the past several months and I've maintained from what Heisenberg said that it should be somewhat comparable to a 4070 (albeit a tad slower). Then you accused me of using the TFLOPs narrative when I've repeatedly said it was bogus and Cerny's 45% claim would put it squarely on the level of a 7700 XT in rasterization, but I still think it'll be faster and much faster in rt, Yet here you are questioning me as if I had doubted the claims about 2-3x better ray tracing performance when for months I've been on board with that.
Got it? Or you won't bother fucking reading again because it's too hard for you?
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PaintTinJr
Gold Member
I already quoted these words you said. In light of your last reply do you wish to retract that?
And even in your last reply you still quote yourself comparing the PS5 GPU to 7700XT but with better RT, but attribute difference to the inclusion of the PSSR software component, which all still points to mid-tier vanilla-ish GPU that needs no explaining.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
No, because the 4070 is a mid-tier GPU.
No, you doofus. I've always maintained that the Pro would be faster than the 7700 XT. A poster even said, "I doubt the Pro will outperform a 7700 XT" and I replied that I didn't, and that in addition, you can add PSSR and it won't even be close. So even without PSSR, I still think that the 7700 XT will be slower.
Next time you wanna go for those gotcha moments, learn to read. Last time I'm replying to your ass.LikeHeisenbergFX4 has been repeating for several months now. 3080/4070/7800 XT tier of performance in rasterization.
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PaintTinJr
Gold Member
Yeah I think if your discussion points about the Pro performance are all with linear terms like faster, slower, more raster like GPU ... then from my perspective you are just comparing raw quantities much like teraflops
whereas IMO the parts of the puzzle that we don't know - and would need expertly explained - and will be where the real transformative performance gains over a 7700XT will come... or not, is in the question of what custom features are in?
like is sparse matrices supported? Or is it an AI accelerator with an extra 300TOPs in? or is it just 300TOPs via new instructions of the existing CU count? All things that factor into if the compute is more like 16,75 TF, or 33 TFs dual issue, or 67 half TFs dual issue rapid pack maths.
In your discussion style it feels like the Pro can be slotted into a chart of PC GPUs at the mid section, which I feel downplays the Pro negatively because the reality is far more nuanced and positive of a GPU that doesn't neatly fit unless underutilised.
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watch this guy video. Is he fo real?
He putting up a better case in favor of the Pro than sony presentation especially at 3:55. Going by the picture from left to right is like going from very low, medium and high in my opinion. But watch till the end to see his conclusion, it will blow your mind.
There are ton of people like this on twitters and most of them follow Digital foundry which analyze to the smallest detail by zoom in and FF7 rebirth does not need be zoom in to see the major difference in DF video. Are we being gashlighting here?
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Slothbeing1209
Member
This guy's video always like this, misleading, console drama video,.... If only I know a way to block a youtube channel... He keep showing up on my feed, I don't even watch any of his video.
For the posters that said this mid gen upgrade is weakest compare to the ps4 era, they couldn't be more wrong.
In term of actually raw rasterization, yes the ps4 to pro is alot larger but because of most of ps4 games are 30fps, the perceptual image clarity or motion clarity is still horrible. Image quality going from 30fps from base ps4 to the ps4 pro is not as transformative as going from the base ps5 to the ps5 pro because of 60 fps. Hell, to many people 30fps is a slide show, so it does not matter it 1080p or 4k.
We also not even factor in the ray tracing from the ps5 pro. Look at GT7, polyphony could not implement in game ray tracing on the ps5.
In term of actually raw rasterization, yes the ps4 to pro is alot larger but because of most of ps4 games are 30fps, the perceptual image clarity or motion clarity is still horrible. Image quality going from 30fps from base ps4 to the ps4 pro is not as transformative as going from the base ps5 to the ps5 pro because of 60 fps. Hell, to many people 30fps is a slide show, so it does not matter it 1080p or 4k.
We also not even factor in the ray tracing from the ps5 pro. Look at GT7, polyphony could not implement in game ray tracing on the ps5.
Crispy Gamer
Member
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JerryinSoCal
Member
I just don't get the focus on the cpu, most performance modes so far have only reduced resolution and graphical settings to hit 60fps and many of those games were not originally designed to have a 60fps option in the first place.We have had people on this very forum know devs with it in hand for awhile now and tell people this very thing to not judge it based on specs and wait to see it perform
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
Yeah that's pretty definitive, but shame all the shots they are showing with PSSR in the tweet are all amazing without PSSR.
Seems it would have been more revealing why there are some very coarse square edged alpha masked foliage in the distance that looks to be defeating PSSR completely.
Crispy Gamer
Member
We all have different expectations I didn't expect we'd get these results this soon because we know things are only going to get better over time since it's ML based.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Naoki Hamaguchi is the director so that 100% confirms PSSR for any remaining doubters.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
There was literally one doubter who's been spouting a bunch of nonsense. Imagine being this confidently wrong.
Bu bu buut it's not PSSR. It's FSR! Square is too incompetent to get it to work on time.
Square: Our implementation of PSSR is awesome!
Zathalus
Member
That seems doubtful, the leaked 300 TOPS figure lines up very close to the improvements that RDNA4 brings with WMMA and Sparsity support.
Ironman_Bad
Member
Zathalus
Member
Probably because it's the only meagre upgrade in the console, some games could really have benefited from a CPU bump like BG3 or Dragons Dogma 2.
Obviously not the end of the world, but a tad disappointing nonetheless.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yeah, might have added some additional ALUs, registers, etc… maybe, but yeah it is not a separate NPU. It would have to be quite large… AMD NPU's, Qualcomm's ones, and Apple's ones too are near the 35-40 TOPS mark and they are a decent portion of the total die size. There is lots of HW reuse in GPUs when we see the quoted AI figures.
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TheRedRiders
Member
Likely not an NPU, as having a 300 TOP NPU would require 200mm2 of die space as one of the posters on here mentioned.
PeteBull
Member
Assuming its close to rtx 4070 its high end gpu, less than 10% steam players got gpu similary strong or stronger in raster, if u count in pssr and rt capabilities %age is even lower coz gotta scrap off all amd gpu's, last gen xbox one X was at that lvl with its 6tf gpu but it had terrible jaguar cpu which was holding it back big time.
Mr Moose
Gold Member
Radical_3d
Member
Imma gonna tell you: it'd be more impressive if this was achieved with FSR. Square would have NASA tier engineers as coffee boys.There was literally one doubter who's been spouting a bunch of nonsense. Imagine being this confidently wrong.
Bu bu buut it's not PSSR. It's FSR! Square is too incompetent to get it to work on time.
Square: Our implementation of PSSR is awesome!
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
It is interesting that you mention 35-40TOPS on those NPUs, because working in straight data type size conversion terms:
16.75TF (single issue FP32)->
33.5TF(dual issue FP32)->
67 Half TF(Dual Issue FP16 RPM)->
(134TOPS dual issue INT8 RPM->)
268TOPs dual issue INT4 RPM
leaves the last spec - that should be 300TOPs - short by that type of number, making me think there is a dedicated NPU with 35-40TOPS in the Pro, maybe even allowing a 3% lower GPU clock-rate when the NPU is utilised so that the 300TOPs is actually more accurate than just a ballpark-ish number.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
45-50 TOPS is confirmed to be INT8 ops, I still think that it is reusing the existing CU's (maybe some added ALUs and registers on top of the new instructions) to reach the 300 TOPS number. INT4 is interesting as people quoting INT8 makes me think it is still the preferred data format, but maybe for upsampling it is fine.
I do think PS6 will receive a dedicated NPU developers will be able to use for more flexible AI acceleration (Apple's SoC have both for example).
JerryinSoCal
Member
The bit DF saw of DD2 was running at 60fps, of course it was only a very short clip but we'll see. Seems like you need to use DLSS to get DD2 running at 60fps or above on PC so the CPU may be an issue but the graphical settings matter as well. We'll see, obviously not all games are going to be 60fps but some people really seem fixated on something that in a mid gen refresh was never going to happen.
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Zathalus
Member
That was in the wilds where the game is GPU limited, the Pro would have no issues getting that to a solid 60. The issue is CPU drops in the major city hub. Patches have improved it but it's still quite a ways off from 60 on the base PS5.
Bojji
Member
Despite stupid PR from MS, Xbox Series X is the successor of Xbox one - Series S wasn't even known for a long time after XSX went public, it's just "cheap, underpowered" variant.
PS4 to PS5 was over 5x GPU jump, 2x RAM jump and 3-4xCPU jump. Xbox is pretty much the same other than 10x GPU jump vs Xbox One.
Differences between gens before that were more impressive. It's not exactly Sony or MS fault, technology is reaching silicon barriers...
It was like 3 seconds in a cutscene from tutorial area so we will see.
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Do you have any links or information relating to RDNA4 wmma improvements? Because I was assuming if the Pro was going to use an NPU, only half of the TOPs would come from an NPU with the rest of the performance coming from the GPU.
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Mr Moose
Gold Member
PS4 Pro and One X exists. The jump between One X and S is the smallest.
Edit: Maybe Wii and Wii U? What was the difference between those?
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Zathalus
Member
Good article about some of the improvements to RDNA4: https://chipsandcheese.com/2024/01/28/examining-amds-rdna-4-changes-in-llvm/
Bojji
Member
PS4 Pro and One X exists. The jump between One X and S is the smallest.
Edit: Maybe Wii and Wii U? What was the difference between those?
If you count PS4-PS4 Pro you still get weaker numbers fron PS5-PS5 Pro, it's 2.2x (or 2.4?) GPU increase vs. 1.45x.
I forgot about Nintendo because they play different power game since Wii, but yeah GCN - Wii is the lowest tech jump in history, Wii is just overclocked GCN with some more RAM. Wii U was actually next gen compared to that.
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
Is the 300TOPs confirmed at INT8? If so that makes the final possible solutions for the PS5Pro even more intriguing IMO.
I have a feeling we might get multiple NPUs on the motherboard in the PS6. I think many game uses of AI doesn't require most of it to be low latency on a high bandwidth bus, so keeping prices down using older lithography and bigger chips that can be passively cooled elsewhere on the mobo while still adding a large amount of TOPs compared to what can be added directly inside a cheap lean and mean APU would suite Sony's expertise of advance mobo wiring.
At the end of the day companies like Sony are in competition with Nvidia and Microsoft so being able to utilise and access 25M PS6 NPUs on standby power while the console 'sleeps' has further incentives for Sony to use NPUs.
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YeulEmeralda
Linux User
Please correct me if wrong but it's still an underclocked Zen 2 CPU no?
SweetTooth
Banned
I don't look at it as mid-tier GPU .. its the most powerful console ever created
Bojji
Member
It is. But it's not the power jump we are used to (unless you were nintendo fan 2001-2011).
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