Support NeoGAF

[rofif]

A consistent 40 is a massive improvement over 30, so yes.

Played through the entire game on the 40hz mode myself. Great experience with the higher caliber visuals instead of the gimped Performance mode with no RTGI and flat lighting.

40 feels now how 30 felt to me few years back.
It's not only 50% of frametime faster than 30fps. It's also in 120hz container.
If Sony were at least running 30fps in 120hz…:

 

[Lysandros]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay? Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

 

[Gaiff]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay?Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Despite significantly cutting the resolution, the frame rate still drops a lot more with PSSR. That the final output is better than with TAAU is good, but something needs to be done for that performance penalty.

I don't think VRR should ever be used as an excuse to drop below 60fps so consistently.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay? Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

why did Sony recently make that announcement about their partnership with AMD and how FSR4 is coming to the Pro as well as PS6, if Sony is happy with PSSR? I think pssr just isn't very good and Sony knows it, otherwise they wouldn't be announcing partnerships where they're putting the focus on FSR again ...

Pssr hasn't freed up enough resources of the Pro's gpu since it's frame time cost is high. This is why we see these really low native resolutions in some games. Pssr has had plenty of its own flickering, shimmering and artifacting. Gt7 with pssr and RT looks like shit. Pssr didn't work well with RT for a while and now we're stuck with a big batch of games that have pretty bad implementations of pssr.

Only recently we've seen some pssr implementations free of most of these problems like ac shadows, space Marine 2, black myth, and kingdom come but then we need to ask ourselves whether pssr is serving the function we hoped it would and I don't think it has.

 

[Physiognomonics]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay? Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

They suppose the advantage of TAAU is the ability to drop resolution quickly enough to prevent drops, and it shows in motion as the sharpness and clarity you get with PSSR is significantly better. Similar to FSR vs PSSR.

But they seem to be locked down to a minimum resolution with PSSR (864p or so). I mean it's a problem but most people already have VRR TVs and they don't seem to have problem with the performance loss.

 

[Mr Moose]

why did Sony recently make that announcement about their partnership with AMD and how FSR4 is coming to the Pro as well as PS6, if Sony is happy with PSSR? I think pssr just isn't very good and Sony knows it, otherwise they wouldn't be announcing partnerships where they're putting the focus on FSR again ..

They never said that.

 

[omegasc]

Yeah, that's a weird one. Despite significantly cutting the resolution, the frame rate still drops a lot more with PSSR. That the final output is better than with TAAU is good, but something needs to be done for that performance penalty.

I don't think VRR should ever be used as an excuse to drop below 60fps so consistently.

Not the perfect solution, but TAAU option is still there for those without VRR until a fix is done, if they ever work on it.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

They never said that.

Almost positive they said it ...

 

[saintjules]

They never said that.

Almost positive they said it ...

The AMD x Sony collab gave us FSR4 and a version will appear in PlayStation next year, too, having 'already started to implement the new neural network on PS5 Pro'

"It should take the same inputs and produce essentially the same outputs."

www.pcgamer.com

Eurogamer recently talked to Sony's Mark Cerny on the development of FSR 4 and what it means for the future of PlayStation consoles. The exciting news is gamers won't have to wait for the PS6. Sony plans to have a version of the machine learning tech working on the PS5 Pro in 2026.

"Our target is to have something very similar to FSR 4's upscaler available on PS5 Pro for 2026 titles as the next evolution of PSSR; it should take the same inputs and produce essentially the same outputs. Doing that implementation is rather ambitious and time consuming, which is why you haven't already seen this new upscaler on PS5 Pro."

So technically Mark Cerny said the comment about the feature(s) coming next year, not Sony themselves.

 

[Fake]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay? Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

Agree. And I don't think asking consumers to buy a TV with VRR is a solution for bad optimization.

I really hope PS6 improve this by a lot, not upscaling 360p resolution and fuck the frame rate, turn ON your VRR.

 

[Mr Moose]

Almost positive they said it ...

The AMD x Sony collab gave us FSR4 and a version will appear in PlayStation next year, too, having 'already started to implement the new neural network on PS5 Pro'

"It should take the same inputs and produce essentially the same outputs."

www.pcgamer.com

So technically Mark Cerny said the comment about the feature(s) coming next year, not Sony themselves.

Our target is to have something very similar to FSR 4's upscaler available on PS5 Pro for 2026 titles as the next evolution of PSSR;

It's just an updated PSSR.

 

[Bernardougf]

We are all going to miss console wars if all we have left is The upscaling, zooming and puddle reflexes wars... so stupid

 

[DenchDeckard]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay? Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

Is this caused by an increase in raytracing effects? I feel like this game is very well optimised so I feel quite confident that the developer is working with what they have. Maybe a few patches will increase performance.

 

[Bernardougf]

40 actually feel smooth?

You will have to test for yourself ... for me 40 fps modes feel as dogshit as 30fps ... for others is a great improvement ... so all will depend on your perception and sensitivity, if you like 30 fps modes you will definitely like 40 since is the more balanced.

 

[Karim]

why did Sony recently make that announcement about their partnership with AMD and how FSR4 is coming to the Pro as well as PS6, if Sony is happy with PSSR? I think pssr just isn't very good and Sony knows it, otherwise they wouldn't be announcing partnerships where they're putting the focus on FSR again ...

Pssr hasn't freed up enough resources of the Pro's gpu since it's frame time cost is high. This is why we see these really low native resolutions in some games. Pssr has had plenty of its own flickering, shimmering and artifacting. Gt7 with pssr and RT looks like shit. Pssr didn't work well with RT for a while and now we're stuck with a big batch of games that have pretty bad implementations of pssr.

Only recently we've seen some pssr implementations free of most of these problems like ac shadows, space Marine 2, black myth, and kingdom come but then we need to ask ourselves whether pssr is serving the function we hoped it would and I don't think it has.

PSSR isn't very good based on what exactly? I seen the last video of DF about DLSS4 and I haven't noticed a miracolous difference at lower resolution neither it's so cheaper. Maybe your expectations are a bit too high? And if AMD was that good to make their own upscaler why announce a collaboration with Sony?

 

[Xyphie]

They suppose the advantage of TAAU is the ability to drop resolution quickly enough to prevent drops, and it shows in motion as the sharpness and clarity you get with PSSR is significantly better. Similar to FSR vs PSSR.

But they seem to be locked down to a minimum resolution with PSSR (864p or so). I mean it's a problem but most people already have VRR TVs and they don't seem to have problem with the performance loss.

I think Alan Wake 2 was 864p too, which is an even 0.4x (864/2160) resolution scale at 2160p, so that might be the lowest input resolution PSSR allows for. They might need a 0.33x Ultra Performance mode (720p internal) to get a solid 60 fps.

 

[Karim]

I think Alan Wake 2 was 864p too, which is an even 0.4x (864/2160) resolution scale at 2160p, so that might be the lowest input resolution PSSR allows for. They might need a 0.33x Ultra Performance mode to get a solid 60 fps.

RE4R RE8 also. But I think the list of games it's a bit longer, especially for games with 120fps mode.

 

[Physiognomonics]

I think Alan Wake 2 was 864p too, which is an even 0.4x (864/2160) resolution scale at 2160p, so that might be the lowest input resolution PSSR allows for. They might need a 0.33x Ultra Performance mode (720p internal) to get a solid 60 fps.

If they update PSSR and allow the DRS floor to be lower, like 720p, it should resove those performance problems, while still keeping a better IQ in-motion.

 

[jm89]

 

[Fafalada]

The performance loss (despite significant resolution cut) is simply unacceptable, that is not a good implementation of PSSR. You would think it cost them 3ms or something per frame, how did they managed to do that? How they thought that was okay? Those botched implementations hurt PSSR reputation quite a bit i think.

It's possible that sync points and async execution of TAA they have is highly optimised, and PSSR is running entirely serially as a quick drop-in, thus incurring a much larger penalty compared to time it has compute-occupancy.
One thing that gets ignored (almost entirely) in performance scaling conversations is that contrary to popular belief - GPU workloads are not immune to pipeline stalls in the system - and that's actually a rather big part of optimization in modern render pipelines. For instance - this is where things like 'cache scrubbers' can have a rather dramatic impact on 'GPU performance'.
It's also why all those 'pixel <-> Flop linear scaling' shorthands are largely nonsense - plenty of things in pipeline don't scale linearly with resolution, or compute throughput.

Now of course - this is entirely speculative too, as we have absolutely no info on what mechanics of PSSR integration actually look like, or how the cost can be amortized. But I've certainly done things like hiding AA/postprocess pass in Async batches back in PS4 days, so the cost scaling wasn't a simple 'X ms for AA + everything else'.

Reminds me of early VR time, when most eyes/discussion was on 'cost of rendering frames multiple times' etc. but in an average recommended system at the launch of Oculus - the Oculus overhead was something like 2-3ms (at 90fps!), so a scene that would render perfectly fine (with all the multiple views, higher resolution etc) at 90hz - would still drop into 70ies when you turned on the tracking + async-reprojection.

 

[omegasc]

If they update PSSR and allow the DRS floor to be lower, like 720p, it should resove those performance problems, while still keeping a better IQ in-motion.

either this or they improve PSSR cost. But I think it can already go lower. Path of Exile 2 shows an Ultra Performance profile along Perf, Balanced, Quality and No Upscale (AA)

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

PSSR isn't very good based on what exactly? I seen the last video of DF about DLSS4 and I haven't noticed a miracolous difference at lower resolution neither it's so cheaper. Maybe your expectations are a bit too high? And if AMD was that good to make their own upscaler why announce a collaboration with Sony?

Pssr hasn't been very good, period. Out of all the big batch of launch day games using pssr there were numerous issues, mostly around ray tracing noise and artifacting. Alan wake 2, Hogwarts, dragons dogma, Silent Hill, Black Ops 6, sw outlaws, sw jedi, Avatar, gt7, Spiderman, etc etc most of them haven't been fixed or updated to the newest version of pssr and won't be. Don't you remember Digital Foundry talking about Temporal instability? That was them downplaying the issues in reality. Even some games that were considered good implementations have issues if you dig a little deeper ..like Spiderman 2 (more aliasing on Pro but its still a good patch becauee you get 60 fps), last of us 2 (the Santa Barbara level has flickering and broken up shadows only on the Pro), Darktide has a lot of aliasing.

Then the expensive frame time cost is another clear negative with the upscaler.

 

[Nankatsu]

Already?

So what new problem is about to surface?

 

[Zuzu]

NX Gamer's analysis video:



Here's the visual settings on PS5 & Pro (from the video):

 

[Physiognomonics]

NX Gamer's analysis video:

Nxgamer just calculated the PSSR could cost 1.5ms to 1.6ms more than TAAU: 9% (performance loss on average) of a 16.67ms frame is indeed exactly 1.5ms.

But he is wrong in his conclusions that 1.5ms PSSR cost is an improvement over 2ms as he forgot to take into account the TAAU cost which like Fafalada just explained earlier must be super cheap (maybe around 0.5ms) thanks to very good optimizations on consoles.

 

[saintjules]

Nxgamer just calculated the PSSR could cost 1.5ms to 1.6ms more than TAAU: 9% (performance loss on average) of a 16.67ms frame is indeed exactly 1.5ms.

But he is wrong in his conclusions that 1.5ms PSSR cost is an improvement over 2ms as he forgot to take into account the TAAU cost which like Fafalada just explained earlier must be super cheap (maybe around 0.5ms) thanks to very good optimizations on consoles.

How can these youtubers put such analysis and be wrong? Feels like I need to stick to one or two reputable sources.

 

[Bojji]

lmao that exactly you whenever a PS5 Pro thread gets posted

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

 

[Karim]

Pssr hasn't been very good, period. Out of all the big batch of launch day games using pssr there were numerous issues, mostly around ray tracing noise and artifacting. Alan wake 2, Hogwarts, dragons dogma, Silent Hill, Black Ops 6, sw outlaws, sw jedi, Avatar, gt7, Spiderman, etc etc most of them haven't been fixed or updated to the newest version of pssr and won't be. Don't you remember Digital Foundry talking about Temporal instability? That was them downplaying the issues in reality. Even some games that were considered good implementations have issues if you dig a little deeper ..like Spiderman 2 (more aliasing on Pro but its still a good patch becauee you get 60 fps), last of us 2 (the Santa Barbara level has flickering and broken up shadows only on the Pro), Darktide has a lot of aliasing.

Then the expensive frame time cost is another clear negative with the upscaler.

I invite you to check the last of video of DF about DLSS4 "flaws" compared the DLSS3 especially the part about 720p reconstructed to 1440p. You would be surprise about the similarities with the PSSR.

 

[Mr Moose]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it

Yup, that's why I haven't bought one yet.

 

[Karim]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

You literally called PSSR a crap upscaler or whatever, you said it many, many times. You spent most of your time to downplay it or spread even misinformation. I mean, it's not hate but surely it's not mental healthy if I can say.

 

[viveks86]

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

Welcome to the club! Now people can stop picking on you

 

[Karim]

Yup, that's why I haven't bought one yet.

I have one. Love it and prefers it a lot more over the ps4 pro upgrade. But I perfectly understand if people found ps5 pro crazy higher priced and not worth it. Said that PSSR for me it's the more fascinating hardware feature of this console generation.

 

[Bojji]

You literally called PSSR a crap upscaler or whatever, you said it many, many times. You spent most of your time to downplay it or spread even misinformation. I mean, it's not hate but surely it's not mental healthy if I can say.

There are games that looked like shit with PSSR: SH2, Avatar and some others (I think AW2 looks bad as well).

In other games it can look really good (TLoU1/2, Ratchet, GOWR, KC2, Wukong etc.). So far results are inconsistent.

Welcome to the club! Now people can stop picking on you

Thanks! They won't! There are few posters here that own a Pro and PC and they are attacked for having wrong opinions, lol.

 

[jm89]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

@mods Bojji's account has been hacked, please investigate

 

[mckmas8808]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

 

[Gaiff]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

Welcome to the club. We highly recommend Astro Bot for an appetizer. Demon's Souls Remake is a very popular main course, and for dessert, Gran Turismo 7 is sure to please even the most demanding of gourmets.

 

[adamsapple]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

 

[Ozriel]

Adding this here:



These guys are such clowns it's not even funny



We know what we do is full of shit, but we're going to keep pushing it anyways. In other words, you can't tell at all.



The DRS doesn't act fast enough when you're actively trying to break it rather than just playing the game like you normally would...

Video game developers don't developer their game around the way that DF tests games. They aren't expecting the player to pan the camera around at a stand still to see if they can drop the framerate or walk up to the tv with a magnifying glass. These are fundamentally unserious people who have somehow managed to amass a huge following for people interested in technical analysis.



We didn't see any drops, but who knows maybe there are drops. This isn't the only time they say this, but it's curious when they say it and when they don't. It's such an odd thing to say in general. It's hard not to see this as a shot.



Says the guys crying about the lack of RT in 5 year old games like TLOUP2... Again, this is a shot. Something isn't perfect, but it's better than SSR, but they don't want to give the PS5 Pro credit here. It's doing A LOT more than the base consoles with PSSR and without PSSR.

You can't take a lot of the criticism from DF regarding the PS5 Pro seriously, because the things they often get on PSSR for, they'll totally excuse in TAAU and then focus on framerate. They also seem so dismissive of the fact that the vast majority of people with PS5 Pros are going to have VRR capable displays. It's always an afterthought, but VRR is a big reason why the PS5 Pro is a significantly better machine than the PS5, especially when you're looking at quality modes unlocked or balanced modes unlocked.

It's also why the VRR issue on PlayStation is a big deal that needs to be addressed.

Man, when it comes to DF you're firmly in 'bitch eating crackers' mode. You're in every DF article about the Pro, nitpicking every line.

Maybe give up the vendetta already? There's nothing egregious or objectionable in what you're highlighting.

 

[Shaki12345]

In a world where Nintendo and Sony screw over their customers and Microsoft pivoted, Ubisoft is there to save gaming with polished products.

 

[Bojji]

Thanks!

Welcome to the club. We highly recommend Astro Bot for an appetizer. Demon's Souls Remake is a very popular main course, and for dessert, Gran Turismo 7 is sure to please even the most demanding of gourmets.

I have one month of Premium so I was able to test shit ton of games. I love doing this, I didn't sell my first PS5 to test how games perform and look, lol.

Spoiler

I'm sure some people will still hate me here (same people that hate you) so we will still fight them together!

 

[Zathalus]

I never hated Pro - piece of hardware. I hated Sony decisions:

- lack of disc drive, ridiculous prices of add on and poor availability of it
- ridiculous price of console in Europe
- poor patches and support in many games (this one is 50/50 on Sony and publishers).

Few months later:

- market is saturated where I live, disc drives are everywhere and at MSRP.
- price is still ridiculous (~816 Euro where I live)
- most games with poor support were fixed
- Death Stranding 2 is coming soon (and GoY, GTA6 later)...

So... I found some good deal (almost brand new console for ~618 Euro) and I have Pro right now

Spoiler

Nice that you got one for a good price. Welcome to the club. DS2, GoY, and GTAV are indeed all looking to be great on the Pro this year.