I watched the video. If you're talking about the segment where they say Zen wasn't going to be in the box and they did what they could with Jaguar, I'm not sure what your point is. So far any customizations done to benefit the CPU are from the XBO or Polaris. We need an actual deep dive to what they did to Jaguar outside of raising the clock rates, if they did anything at all.
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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
I watched the video. If you're talking about the segment where they say Zen wasn't going to be in the box and they did what they could with Jaguar, I'm not sure what your point is. So far any customizations done to benefit the CPU are from the XBO or Polaris. We need an actual deep dive to what they did to Jaguar outside of raising the clock rates, if they did anything at all.
Yikes, what an embarrassing post.
That's sensible I'd say. We'll see special cases perhaps(?)
Agreed on all counts. That memory BW is quite sexy. Hopefully 3rd party devs will also go crazy with including real 4K textures packs/patches.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Shouldn't you be waiting for independent reviews before making that decision.
If the machine is as low as $399-$499 and can play say Forza Horizon 3 at 4K settings, then you are going to struggle to build a PC to do the same for the same price.
I mean, the closest spec card to what is in the Scorpio (RX480) is almost half of that immediately. Then you need motherboard, CPU, OS ,HDD, etc so it's not such an unrealistic expectation that you are going to get a very capable machine that comes really damn close to what you can build for the same price.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think it is weird we went for pretty much calling it a tablet CPU you find in 10,000 bundles in McDonald's happy meals to a question of "why are you not HAPPY and HYPED as I am? Why are you saying something bad about it dammit?!?!?!?
I still think now what I thought at the beginning of the generation, while the CPU is not as fast as some, MS and Sony included, would have wanted it to be, it still fits the system better than the PPE and PPX cores were in the previous gen with a lot less bottlenecks and weird performance pitfalls. They are dependable mostly surprise free cores.
Also, like you said many times neither MS nor Sony had any alternative they could use back then and compatibility forced their hands to limit themselves to clock speed updates.
Tripolygon
Banned
I have to say I appreciate your patience in discussing with us plebs. Some people would have checked out a long time ago.
I think you are over estimating the "custom" aspect of things. If they really made deep customisations that make big difference they would have said so. It being custom doesn't mean or so much when these parts of being custom since OG XB1/PS4 were custom. Either way with time and events like hotchips we will know more.
Colbert
Banned
You must have seen a totally different video than me. I can remember seeing Leadbetter praising the customizations on Jaguar CPU they made based on the profiling the actual code base to kink out all those bottlenecks in there.
Just from a logical standpoint if you make this kind of research on a specific CPU then you have to go with that CPU for your next hardware as another CPU would not act the same exact way and you wouldn't know what actually to change/customize to improve performance.
Can you now comprehend why it was their only option and why I referenced the Matt's comment because of that?
Edit:
And thats why I disagree with Matt on the matter continuing with that "bad naughty Jaguar CPU" talk. I don't see any benefit in it for people that seek for information if they should or shouldn't buy the console end of this year.
Fascinating candid interview, thanks
Sad Affleck
Member
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
On Beyond3D the majority expected a Zen/Vega based machine:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...-prediction-thread-april-2017-revision.60004/
I recommend reading the actual predictions, not just the poll which was closed late.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...-prediction-thread-april-2017-revision.60004/
I recommend reading the actual predictions, not just the poll which was closed late.
But we had quite a few people hammering that custom rhetoric treating it as a new CPU since the DF reveal. Are you suuure it's still a Jaguar though? xp
Colbert
Banned
Liked it to. Much better than the one that was titled like a click bait article.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Because of the obvious efficiencies and balance in terms of manufacturing costs vs costs per watt and IPC you are only going to get an APU from AMD this console generation and perhaps all console generations going forward from now.
This generation, the only choice of the CPU component of the APU is the Jaguar.
For better or worse it was always going to be Jaguar in or before 2017.
Other than being a totally different discussion, the comparative performance (dis)advantages Jaguar has over other solutions is immaterial because there are no other solutions.
I think this is the jist of what Matt is getting at.
This generation, the only choice of the CPU component of the APU is the Jaguar.
For better or worse it was always going to be Jaguar in or before 2017.
Other than being a totally different discussion, the comparative performance (dis)advantages Jaguar has over other solutions is immaterial because there are no other solutions.
I think this is the jist of what Matt is getting at.
Well wait. First of all, I have been saying for forever now that the Jag was their only option, but has nothing to do with anything you said here. It was their only option because AMD doesn't make another CPU they could use instead.
And the other problem with what you said here is that, simply put, it would be better to have a stronger CPU and give up all of the "optimizations" MS made here than to take a weaker CPU with them.
lol, well I'm glad someone is happy.
I thought you were trying to dispute his claim that Jaguar was the only option, sorry about that.
I took most of their changes based on existing software to be on the GPU, not the CPU. We still need an explanation to what these changes even are.
It's weird right!?!?
And yeah, I'm certainly glad these are standard x86 cores. As much shit as we give them, of course things could be worse.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
I am slightly surprised Scorpio uses Polaris tech. In many, many ways, Scorpio is similar to PS4 Pro not that,that's a bad thing.
Colbert
Banned
First part: I did not say you said that, I was referring to your comment as I was agreeing (Yeah!) just from a different perspective and to give you another point of view. Thats why I recommended to watch the video you so wonderfully declined to do so.
Second part: There is no right or wrong on this part. Having this profiling work done also helped to further optimize other parts in the system like the GPU. So they leveraged a lot out of the approach in favor of their complete solution and not just one part of it. A very smart decision from a business perspective but also from a technology perspective I see here. I can understand if you favor the raw brute force approach which is the easy route.
Architecture wise in terms instructions yes. I posted this earlier but this is what they did with XB1, i expect a similar thing with Scorpio -
Add me to the happy circle 😀🤗
I...it just keeps going around and around. There was no smart or dumb decision to use this CPU. They had to use it. That actually goes for most of the Scorpio hardware. The stuff that's impressive about it largely has to do with working around those limitations (like the heat issue). A lot of these optimizations that keep getting brought up are actually kind of normal and expected. They are good to have and nice and many are quite clever in fact, but none of them are actually worth stronger hardware if given the option (which they weren't).
And look, I'm not obligated to watch a half hour video full of information that I already know. If there was something in there you wanted me to speak to specifically, you should have just highlighted it yourself.
Colbert
Banned
No need to be sorry. All comments could be traps built by a hidden agenda reaching for world domination ...
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
"Performing like a GTX 1070"
You're spinning here, the comment was, "Digital Foundry was making passing comments about it performing like a GTX 1070"
Proof: "From what I've seen so far, there is some evidence that Scorpio's true 4K performance could pose a challenge to the likes of Nvidia's GTX 1070 and AMD's Fury X-class hardware. "
"Scorpio is a hardcore gaming console for people who want the power of PC without the hassle."
Scorpio outperforms a $400-500 PC. I have a 8-core AMD CPU and RX 480 and the performance being described and shown in specs is superior to what I can pull by up to 25%. It was $500 just for my CPU, GPU, and OS.
---
When I told GAF months ago that it could be Jag/Polaris I got gang-piled and told I was nuts. Now a lot of these same "experts" are talking a mad game about something they really must have no hands on experience with, given some of the responses.
Look at all this CPU jabber, Zen would have done jack-shit for 4k/30fps. There is no 40CU, 384-bit, 326GB/s Polaris on PC. I had a R9 390 PCS+ and did all these tests last year, then traded for a RX 480 and did them again. The 390 is a 5.1TFLOPS part and it outperforms the 5.8TFLOPS RX 480 by ~12% in 4K across over a dozen titles. This is almost all down to the memory bandwidth.
A simple 12.5% bump in memory clock yields 6% performance increase with the RX 480 in Unity. We're looking at a 50% increase in memory bandwidth going from PS4 Pro to Scorpio and a 50% increase in VRAM paired with a 43% compute advantage. Yet, people want damage control by characterizing it as a simple overclock. This is Polaris with 40CUs paired with 390x memory performance and a whole slew of custom designs. Only Richard Leadbetter has seen it's ability and reported on it. It's going to be between 390x and Fury X level of performance in 4K for $400-500.
By all means, get a 8-core AMD CPU and Polaris GPU and see for yourself.
Colbert
Banned
6000+ comments .... tl;dr Matt knows best ... /s
Edit:
Did you actual read the last comment I made? I agreed on "only option" and I said there is no right or wrong about if they could have it done differently.
Thats a Greay Area
Member
I disagree. I think that's exactly why they scaled back vs. optimized. The AC production schedule didn't allow for it. In my opinion, that's why there was no AC last year. I think it's all about optimization and polish for the new sequel.
I don't know why I bother...
Again, it's a simple example, I'm not going to go into the intricacies of AC tech or production. But yeah, maybe the crowd tech can make a return.
Colbert
Banned
Nothing of this kind is involved. I think we just have a dissent how we judge on things like in this case Scorpio.
There is no beef so to say, just disagreement on certain things.
Why yes, because we all know what they could've achieved with Ryzen+Vega architecture in a closed box system lol.
We don't know what type of customizations are in there yet. They mention 60 customizations but don't talk about any of them.
No matter what it's safe to say they are not hitting Ryzen performance.
Colbert
Banned
From a manufacturing standpoint the die sizes are quite similar between Xbox One and Sbox Scorpio, so pure manufacturing should be more or less the same. When it comes to R&D cost it depends what would have been more expensive to do: a) research the tech that is already well known and do some customizations that need some iterations or b) use newer tech you have no experience with and have more iterations in testing to learn about the new hardware. Your choice
Edit:
Totally forgot about the cost of IP which of course would have been higher with Zen & Vega.
We shouldn't forget they have to sell that thing on a reasonable price even they say it is "premium".
Well in terms of Ryzen dodging a bullet that doesn't exist would be silly 😉☺️
Chris_Rivera
Member
Just make sure exclusives like Sunset overdrive and halo 5 run at 1089p/60 or higher.
I have a feeling multiplats will be simple upscaling most of he time.
I have a feeling multiplats will be simple upscaling most of he time.
This is Jaguar+Polaris, no amount of "customizations" will magically transform them into Zen+Vega
Jaguar Victory
Member
Dat 1089p
BTW for those who haven't played Sunset Overdrive yet, go pick it up. It looks great and plays great.
Chobel
Member
ُExcited? More like delusional, I don't judge people who were "excited" about Vega, but AMD outright denied Zen for Scorpio. Nothing about Zen was in the realm of possibility.
And nice try with "disappointed concern" and "second version of the Pro with a better CPU", because you got me: I'm here to troll and not to call out bullshit arguments from few months ago. /s
transformer
Member
Forza at 4K/60 with ultra settings after two days of work to port code. With that "bottleneck". I'm not worried about where or what is the bottleneck with that kind of performance.
It's delicious
Chris_Rivera
Member
You know forza will be a special case. Open your mind...
transformer
Member
Are you indicating that only this game will be 4k60? Or 4K? Why would that be?
Plenty of people buy PCs for $500 or lower, even for gaming.
Actually it would take approximately a 650-700 pc to match or beat scorpio is pure specs alone, which is probably close to the price range of most people.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The cooling solution and profiling they use allows any 1080p Xbox One game to run on Scorpio at 4k with Ultra textures. Some 900p games like Ryse can even make the jump.
Something like DOOM runs 828p(?)/60fps on Xbox One, and will not make the jump to 4k/60fps. 1440p or a checkboard solution is within grasp. That's the difference Zen would have made.
Caayn
Member
Forza also ran at 60fps on the XB1 CPU, that doesn't change that the CPU is weak and a bottleneck for the rest of Scorpio.
anothertech
Member
Kind of a shame the dx12/d3d12 implementation is just the same thing they did already with Xbone. Seemed like it was such a big deal at first.
Hawk269
Member
Don't forget they also cranked up settings and gpu load hit about 80% without optimizing code. this is on early sdk as well.
Guys, it's OK to know what is in Scorpio.
It's OK to be disappointed.
It's OK to be excited.
The performance looks to be technically impressive for what they're using.
Just a thread full of people banging their heads against a brick wall now, lol.
Microsoft, we'd like details on those 60 changes to enable better discussion 😉...if you don't mind.
It's OK to be disappointed.
It's OK to be excited.
The performance looks to be technically impressive for what they're using.
Just a thread full of people banging their heads against a brick wall now, lol.
Microsoft, we'd like details on those 60 changes to enable better discussion 😉...if you don't mind.