Using Vega would possibly be similar in die size but Zen cores are larger. It would be impossible fit a 8 core Zen in a 400mm2 die while keeping the GPU target specs at 6TF.
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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
Can developers use all that extra sauce? That is, will there be games developed exclusively for Scorpio or will it mainly be used for a smooth OS and optimization/4K rendering of games?
Until MS provides proof we should assume outside the memory controller and 4 CUs there is no customization beyond the ps4 pro. I guess makes sense cut the R&D budget to get costs down to hit 399.99. I am assuming they got great pricing on this since it is recycled old tech from the pro. It's a shame Scorpio could been great instead of solid. I'll probably end up getting one because of the extra ram. I guess no Vega killed my excitement would loved to see what Vega would do in a closed box.
For the one millionth time since they announced it... No exclusives save some vr titles
Since they present without proof I will make up stuff without proof
Okay thread is no longer fun.. Just nonsense repeated ove and over
It's simple.
Games that are running 900p/1080p and 60fps on X1, will run at 4K and 60 fps on xbox scorpio.
Games that are running at 900p/1080p and 30fps, will run at 4K and 30 fps on xbox scorpio.
So games like Halo 5, Overwatch, Forza Motorsport, DOOM, and others, will be able to run at 4K/60 fps.
The good thing is that, besides the bumb in resolution, there will be room for other improvements like better textures.
A new low for this thread
Caayn
Member
I know, but that's all GPU related.
Chobel
Member
1) Yes
2) No
3) Developers can use the extra power to improve the games beyond just resolution/framerate.
Exactly... A major change in cpu would be useless as these games need to run on Xbox one also
transformer
Member
Okay then. If we are limited to 60 fps gaming on the Scorpio because of a CPU bottleneck then I'm okay with that. I'm not even sure if my tv can take any higher frame rates. Never tried.
Just to take the heat off of Matt, he's not the only person calling out the CPU.
Caayn
Member
It wouldn't. Better CPU would be able to result in better draw distances(also for shadows), more objects on screen, higher framerates, etc. without even needing to create new/higher quality assets.
It'd still be able to run on the base XB1. Just scaled down, like we've seen happening for ages in this industry.
I'm fine with Scorpio overall although I'd lie if I said that I was fine with the CPU.
No idea how people can be disappointed.
MS came out saying they would be making a console with 8 cores, a 6TF GPU and memory bandwidth of 320GB/s and that's what they're gonna release
In the meantime we also had info from AMD that there was no semi-custom Zen planned for 2017 so Zen was out
People who couldn't keep their expectations in check only have themselves to blame
I know its convenient to leave out, but its important to note none the less...
"Scorpio's Command Processor provides additional capability and programmability beyond what Xbox One/Xbox One S can do. We plan to take advantage of this in the future."
-Microsoft's Andrew Goossen
Saying that it was recycled from the pro doesn't make it a pure fact Mr. Trump
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I can't wait for the day that we can get past the Jag being a bottleneck.
It is a bottleneck and it is disappointing... compared to the idea of a Scorpio with Zen because you could have gotten better Performance at higher framerates and WITH higher fidelity graphics as well, EASIER. Period.
As it is though, the CPU is absolutely not as much of a bottleneck at all for utilizing the extra power with the new gpu and RAM that have been added... in terms of graphical fidelity. It will not stop games from looking great and better than the Pro versions since there is no 4K mandate on devs (Yes I think MS 4K marketing is silly) and they can use CB rendering as well which would allow Scorp to utilize the rest of it's power advantages in graphical bells and whistles.
As it stands, in terms of performance only, you could probably look at the Pro and expect Scorp to perform more stable. That is where fps might fluctuate on the Pro or where it might have bad pacing you could probably expect to see that be stable, smooth and buttery, on Scorp. I don't think it's going to be a huge fps difference but a more stable experience is absolutely something to look forward to in just that regard.
I think this conversation would be much more interesting if we focused on those other things like the RAM etc. and what they could mean for games in terms of bells and whistles until we get more info about the changes made to the cpu and if it would actually effect anything more..
It is a bottleneck and it is disappointing... compared to the idea of a Scorpio with Zen because you could have gotten better Performance at higher framerates and WITH higher fidelity graphics as well, EASIER. Period.
As it is though, the CPU is absolutely not as much of a bottleneck at all for utilizing the extra power with the new gpu and RAM that have been added... in terms of graphical fidelity. It will not stop games from looking great and better than the Pro versions since there is no 4K mandate on devs (Yes I think MS 4K marketing is silly) and they can use CB rendering as well which would allow Scorp to utilize the rest of it's power advantages in graphical bells and whistles.
As it stands, in terms of performance only, you could probably look at the Pro and expect Scorp to perform more stable. That is where fps might fluctuate on the Pro or where it might have bad pacing you could probably expect to see that be stable, smooth and buttery, on Scorp. I don't think it's going to be a huge fps difference but a more stable experience is absolutely something to look forward to in just that regard.
I think this conversation would be much more interesting if we focused on those other things like the RAM etc. and what they could mean for games in terms of bells and whistles until we get more info about the changes made to the cpu and if it would actually effect anything more..
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Seems disappointing for those of us that are looking for gaming experiences that go beyond just higher resolutions and fancy graphics. How will this make the interactions with NPCs in an Elder Scrolls game better? How will this make the detail and enormity of a city in GTA more impressive?
They can't use the power on that kind of improvement because it is too close to the core of the game engine and make it unplayable on the older hardware.
that's never what these mid-gen consoles were about. To expect otherwise is foolish
anothertech
Member
Interested to see how games with dynamic res actually work on the Scorpio. Considering they don't run 1080 on the Xbone most of the time, but cater more to the 60fps side. I imagine ms will work some kind magic to make the game look amazing despite the 60fps
These kind of changes were never, ever in the cards.
The fact that it doesn't live up to these expectations isn't on Microsoft, it's on you.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
EDIT: You know what. I'm just going to say that I agree.
GarthVaderUK
Banned
I'm personally happy that if for games like those, Scorpio can do 4K native 60fps with higher quality assets and other graphical improvements. Yes, not every game will reach 4K native 60fps, as some devs will of course prioritise other things and they are free to do so. Whether people knew or expected Scorpio would be this powerful or not is neither here nor there to me now, I'm eagerly looking forward to getting and playing on my Scorpio
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I mean, You don't even see this on PC on multiplats...
Games with dynamic res will play at the target res. Halo 5 or the witcher 3 will play always at 1080p on scorpio.
HighResTomato
Member
Exactly
That ForzaTech demo had Dynamic weather, 4k assets, better car models, etc and had a lot of gpu resources left. Forza 6 was already taxing og XB1 but Scorpio is running it way better with room to spare
You were looking for a new generation console, something neither the Pro or Scorpio are
Which makes PS4Pro look even worse. XB1 and PS4 had different gpu architectures bonaire vs pitcairn. So a performance difference would be expected. It would be one thing if Scorpio was zen/vega for there to be a 40%-50% difference. But if both are using jaguar/polaris yet MS engineers designed a system with such a gulf in power speaks to how Sony either rushed or more likely cheaped out on the design of PS4Pro. I think the exclusion of a UHD bluray drive in there "Pro" version brings credence to Sony being frugal on the design.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Man, since Microsoft has said that devs are free to use the extra horse power how they want, the idea of a dev using checkerborad the scoprio and using the extra horsepower for effects, physics, etc. Damn .
.Glad I didn't buy a Pro, just seems so half assed compared to Scorpio.
This. It is like these people are not understanding this was a way for Xbox One gamers not to be stuck with 720p or 900p games that also have issues with framerates. Now they will get more 1080p/60 or even 4k/30 or 4k/60 ability to play games, closer to PC high or ultra settings.
This will not magically make any game you want better because like Phil wants, each game on Scorpio must be feature parity to base Xbox One. PS4 Pro and Scorpio have enough power to blow us away with games if they wanted to. Remember what 343 achieved in 2012 with Halo 4 on 360? Now imagine if they could use all of Scorpio's power and not worry about base Xbox One. Imagine what Guerilla would have done with Horizon Zero Dawn if they didn't have to ensure it worked flawlessly on PS4.
The good stuff will come the next real generation break which will now be started by Sony. Scorpio has full BC and even makes previous xbox one games better with its texture filtering and whatnot. Whereas the Pro really doesn't do much for the PS4 base, there is no real BC. The next PS5 will be ultra powerful and that would be when the generation starts for those who want more NPC's or blah blah. To move away from jaguar cpu architecture.
Depending on how you look at it, it either makes the Scorpio or the Pro look bad. Everyone wins in this discussion.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Man, since Microsoft has said that devs are free to use the extra horse power how they want, the idea of a dev using checkerborad the scoprio and using the extra horsepower for effects, physics, etc. Damn
Don't get carried away, You'll only be disappointed. The games will be gorgeous and run smoothly but lets not start dreaming of next gen experiences. We'll see the best versions of the current games and that's it.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
Is it just VR games that will be exclusive like the other dude was saying? How else can developers improve the game?
Am I crazy if I think it (and ps pro) are actually fairly balanced systems? Yes, it would have been nice to have a faster CPU, but considering these are designed to play games designed around a jaguar CPU, but to drive them at 4x the resolution, they seem about right. The GPU will always be the majority of the silicon and while that is amplified here compared to XB1/PS4, that is just a factor of needing to generate a 4k output.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I don't know why even bothering answering like this. Not everyone here knows how this tech works, maybe he only wants to understand it. No need to act all sarcastic.
Well, Scorpio or PS4 Pro were never meant to be next-gen consoles. Still, I would say Scorpio may not disappoint if it delivers the great improvements DF said it may (supersampling, 4k, better fps, and overall improvements even at X360 titles).
SeeNoWeevil
Member
Now they'll get 1800p games that have issues with framerates. Exciting stuff.
geordiemp
Member
Sony was conservative on clocks for heat and TDP. I am eager to see what temps Scorpio gets to when pushing a demanding game from a tech stand point, it is interesting.
maybe TSMC runs cooler than Global F. But you are being a bit unfair with cheaped out, MS are just pushing clocks and thermals here. Got to love MS for that, they do push the boat.
Credit where its due, Scorpio Bandwidth looks lovely.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Which is why both of them should have stuck with releasing an entirely new generation every 4-5 years instead of moving to whatever this is. How long until we do get those things I mentioned after Scorpio comes out? 3 more years? 4?
amstradcpc
Member
Yeah, thats why Pro has Vega wavefront scheduler and Vega shader cores making the gpu more efficient...
E-Cat
Member
You need to realize that we're still in the same console gen. No matter what MS says. It's not disappointing for what it is, a mid-gen refresh.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Sadly this. I made a post a while back about how consoles generally hold the entire industry back,
"If anything traditional console generations are doing more harm than good if we are talking about graphics and such. Consoles hold the industry back in terms of multiplatform games at the planning stages having to think about the lowest denominator. Heck, I'd say it even effects first party games not being able to make huge distinctive leaps with their sequels over the span of the gen. Not to mention all the time and effort and money spent trying to eek out as much of the power of the consoles as they can over the long gens.
PC if I am not mistaken doesn't have this problem and has always been the definitive place to play games and that is more like an iterative space than traditional console gens. This has remained true no matter the generation consoles where on. This has a lot to do with the way games on PC scale to various types of hardware which MS at least has specifically mentioned they are utilizing for Scorpio from here on out for launching all games on Xbox One as well. I see no reason that with the iterative console approach (if it is indeed where we are headed) that we shouldn't be looking at it more (not exactly) like GPU's releasing for PC and being able to reach further fidelity in games with each one sooner/faster than we could before with traditional gens.
So, as a PC only gamer, I very much welcome these new iterative consoles because they will be raising the bar graphics wise for me as well much sooner than normal.
NOTE: This is more for those who understand the impact that RAM and such have on games and what avenues having more opens up for development possibilities during the planning stages."
It's just too bad that we are still stuck with Jag on the most recent of the iterative consoles.
A better CPU at the LCD would allow more devs to utilize it to do the things that poster was talking about and more. You can do some amazing things as is, but you have to be extremely clever and take shortcuts and it cost time and money which a faster CPU would alleviate to a great extent.
I know I saw an article on the implications of a faster CPU in game dev but I can't remember for the life of me what it was and now I can't find it. Would be great if someone more knowledgeable than I could give more info on this though.
Locuza
Member
Bonaire and Pitcairn are chip names not architecture names.
Both used GCN Gen 2 as a foundation.
Games would have to be patched to run in 4K. That doesn't just happen automatically. If they support dynamic resolution, they'll like max out whatever the supported resolution was in the engine. And framerates will certainly be more stable.
They are doing half step refreshes every 4 years. The IC business dictates that this is the best way forward for them. It should be noted that consoles launching in 2013 were using technology that existed on the PC in 2011.
The previous generation consoles used bleeding edge hardware when they launched.
This is a really silly position to take. A year of development (and a higher build cost) brings a lot of changes. A Scorpio released last year would be roughly the same as the Pro, maybe a bit more to correspond with a higher cost.