I see Scorpio ♏ getting back the 360 fanbase it lost to PS4, especially if those gamers have only played popular games like Call of Duty and Battlefield. My colleague is already packing his PS4 up all ready to trade in prep for this fall, for the best though because he didn't really take advantage of the niche games and Japanese titles. What remains to be seen is how the marketing deals for COD, Destiny 2, Battlefront 2 and RDR2 play out. MS may well get COD back.
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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
soundscream
Member
When did MS ever say this was a next gen console?
The only thing they said was about moving to a ecosystem thats beyond generations. Think phonea/tablet model.
Never.
soundscream
Member
Its getting really silly now. All they did is deliver exactly what they said they would and people still accuse them of being misleading.
Thebeardofknowledge
Banned
Good luck with that
Scorpio , Xbox one and Xbox one S still aren't selling more than 50 million Lifetime
MisterXDTV
Member
No, it makes the PS4 Pro look better. A good upgrade using the same components without overclocking a YEAR earlier....
The cooling system in Scorpio is gonna cost a lot. Money they saved sticking to Jaguar/Polaris a year later, will be used for that. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me....
And still, we don't know Scorpio price: I don't think the upgrade compared to Pro would be worth a 150 or 200$ difference in price...
Depends on how you see it. You can buy a pro today but you can't buy a Scorpio. It is a mid gen refresh so it depends on your priorities. I bought a slim instead of a pro because the extra cost wans't worth for me.
When next gen launches pro customers will have enjoyed their hardware one more year at least, so that has its value. Just like phones, buy now or wait for next year model?
I think both did a decent job, we have to remember this is the first time this mid gen update happens in a meaningful way, so each did the most reasonable to deliver a good product considering the tech available at the time, and at a competitive price, and we have yet to know pricing for Scorpio, but i hope the cooling solution did not make it very expensive
Liabe Brave
Member
Actually, it's a pretty small number of games that have notably unstable framerates on Pro. But I do expect the handful of games with unlocked framerate modes to be much improved on Scorpio.
It did not have a lot of GPU resources left. Digital Foundry said the upgraded version hit 100% GPU utilization at points. Also, Forza was not taxing Xbox One. That's why it was locked 60fps. Scorpio of course does run it much better.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Ok, but when you look at the whole picture and the end result you can start to understand why Spencer said that.
How many years is the Scorpio and Pro going to be on the market till the next iteration?
I believe what he was trying to say is that he didn't want to be stuck in a place where the console he puts out is stuck with struggling to meet performance expectations for years and also sacrifice on other features that he thought where important.
So to him, sacrificing what the Pro did to be on the market sooner was half assed compared to what he thought was important to have in a console. He definitely didn't want another XB1 situation where everyone is ragging on it's performance for the rest of the gen (or whatever it is we are calling it now lol).
And from what I have seen of the Pro and how it just barely manages to eek by in a lot of places strictly performance wise and then I look at peoples reactions or disappointments in lackluster Pro patches, I can see where he is coming from.
These consoles are going to be on the market much longer than the span between them that it took for them to respectively hit the market. In a year or two it's going to seem like no time at all just like the 360-ps3 releases. Many people wouldn't even know that if you didn't tell them. All people generally know and care about is what the end results are and what is available to them now until the next iteration.
E-Cat
Member
That's my point. He was looking for decidedly next-gen experiences with "better interactions with NPCs in an Elder Scrolls game" and "more impressive detail and enormity of a city in GTA" and, hence, came away disappointed due to his unrealistic expectations.
I cannot wait until PS5 launches, so that people stop touting this 'beyond generations' BS. At that point, it shall become abundantly clear that you can't "forward-compatible" a stopgap console without paying a terrible price, if that's the path that MS decides to take.
soundscream
Member
That was only when set to ultra with no lod models. The 66% gpu was with high models and lod models.
I...wasn't responding to a Spencer quote?
soundscream
Member
But you said no matter what MS says. They never said it was a next gen console.
And there's no reason it cant be forward compatable 1 iteration at a time. Scorpio 2 games play on scorpio 1 but not xb1s, and so on and so on.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Microsoft has only ever said "beyond generations" which is just a fancy way of saying they're all in on backwards compatibility. Your library will carry forward for as long as it possibly can.
RebornYeti
Member
So these games will be able to achieve 4K/60 fps, but hopefully (I don't know if it's already been announced or confirmed) they receive 4K assets, if at all possible. Halo 5 would particularly look pretty amazing with 4K textures. Those rocks would look even more amazing lol.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I've seen you respond in pretty much the exact same way to people saying they think the pro was half assed.
That is basically what the poster you responded to was saying in a more thought out way.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure Spencer said he didn't want to release a console that was half assed in a tweet or something. That's where the half assed sentiment is coming from I believe. I could be very wrong though lol.
That poster was specifically criticizing Sony's engineering work, not their strategic planning. He's saying if MS did this with Polaris and Jaguar Sony must have fucked up their design work or cheapened out.
No, it would Not. Microsoft didnt Just upclock the cpu and put in some more RAM. No, they actually looked how to optimized the Hardware from a game Developers Point of view. Also, added some DX12 Hardware Features.
They would have done the same Last year. Sony did Not anything remotely like that.
SEGAvangelist
Member
Half_assed comment was Thomas Mahler.
E-Cat
Member
Yeah, ok. But they're kind of implying that we're past gens, so that could have inflated his expectations I guess.
I think you mean "all in on forward compatibility" -- which is a really great way of making it impossible for developers to squeeze performance out of your next-gen console due to legacy concerns.
Ok, you do know that Sony also put in a ton of custom optimizations into the Pro too, right?
Your post is completely incorrect.
soundscream
Member
Thats on him, and you implying that they were misleading when they weren't is on you.
Mwah people say that for PC versions also. I gladly have my full library coming with me then devs not absoluty getting everything out of the console. I am a big fan of this beyond generations idea and upgrades every 4 years or so. If you want you can upgrade. If dont want you just will upgrade the normal 8 years.
E-Cat
Member
Oh, I wasn't saying that they were intentionally misleading anyone.
Can Crusher
Banned
The power of perception.
Electret
Member
What in sweet fuck are you talking about?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine
wesleyshark
Banned
If anything, from what we know so far, they're going to overdeliver a bit. 👌
No 88% was the max load on gpu. Do I need to link you to the article?
And let's no forget this is with ultra settings 4k native. Biggest thing is DYNAMIC WEATHER not found at all in Forza 6. Scorpio ran it all with spare gpu
soundscream
Member
Yeah you did.
And where are you getting that this will be for all iterations going forward? They only said xb1 & scorpio will share games. They never said all games will be forward compatible.
E-Cat
Member
No, I'm talking "beyond generations", like, literally in the sense of beyond generations. Not merely mid-gen refreshes, but no more gens. That is what MS are flirting with, at least in rhetoric.
Stopgap consoles are a great idea and I support them, but they should not be confused with the idea of "beyond generations".
They are doing it now already really.
theDeeDubs
Member
Same here. I love MS's views on this. As for worst case scenarios with sticking with the old ideas of generations, the thought of only being able to play PS4 games through PSNow on Sony's next gen console is frightening. I'd gladly take a generationless system compared to what is currently going on with the lack of backwards compatibility on current consoles.
lensoftruth
Member
E-Cat
Member
Well, then I apologize.
But if it was only that, then it would be, by definition, within a single generation.
tiredheadcrab
Member
Developers will be making games on PS4 and Xbox one (and both their upgraded models) well after the next systems come out. I can see MS sticking to this gaming beyond generations when the next system launches. By that point Scorpio will already have a slim model and be a good upgrade for One S owners who just want to play CoD and whatever else.
In 4 years we arent going to get a jump as big as the OG Xbox to Xbox 360, atleast not anymore. The amount of power we can use in this form factor is starting to slow down. Whatever system Sony and MS release next, probably wont blow us away like we were years ago.
Admittedly, I am not blown away by the power jump this gen either. And that was 8 damn years.
In 4 years we arent going to get a jump as big as the OG Xbox to Xbox 360, atleast not anymore. The amount of power we can use in this form factor is starting to slow down. Whatever system Sony and MS release next, probably wont blow us away like we were years ago.
Admittedly, I am not blown away by the power jump this gen either. And that was 8 damn years.
E-Cat
Member
No, they really aren't. They have not released a console whose CPU and memory architecture and floating-point performance is so beyond Xbox One as to be worthy of a traditional generational leap. If, at that point, they were to insist on games made for that console to be compatible with the previous gen, they would be "doing it".
soundscream
Member
Well, then I apologize.
But if it was only that, then it would be, by definition, within a single generation.
I think your not understanding what they meant by beyond generations. Again look at iPhone software, there are apps that can run on multiple phones but cant on earlier models. Everything isnt going to be forward compatible, when it cant keep up its going to get dropped. If its refreshed every 4 years by the time year 8 comes along the first iteration will no longer be supported, so it wont hinder development of games.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Welp, it was Thomas Mahler that said it not Spencer so that is where the sentiment is coming from. I remember that all now. But yeah, I definitely saw a lot of that sentiment start to spread even more after that. I say even more because I saw a whole lot of it in the Scorpio launch thread and surrounding threads even before that. But anyway.
I think my post explains the sentiment in general. I still think it is what Spencer and Co where thinking.
In regards to the poster you where replying to, It's just what I took from it. You could look past that though and just apply it to the times you replied to people saying that in their opinions they thought pro was half assed in comparison.
I'm just saying that it is still a fair comparison to make because with products that are on the market as long as these are with iterations few and far between all people generally care about in the end is the results especially with the gap between the time these hitting the market being relatively small in the big picture of the consumers minds.
In two years I don't think that someone walking into a store to buy either of these consoles are going to care how long a gap there was between launches rather what features and such each have that appeals more to them.
If one of them seems more half assed than the other, it's not going to matter if someone explains the intricacies of tech dev to them and say it's not fair to say that. They are still going to want the one that appeals to them the most.
Lol I knew it.
In fairness, if my arguments seem a little disjointed right now it's because I'm also trying to keep an eye on my son and a bunch of kids in my back yard jumping on a trampoline. I'm in my stern loud grownup voice mode atm and it's probably translating badly lol.
See without being a fanboy you don't know what the fuck your talking about. I think many people don't know what the their talking about in this thread. Instead or having good conversation it's a bunch of meaningless back and forth.
I'm not not gonna even deny Scorpio's performance and unique architecture. MS kills at software and they invented DX. But I wall highlight your ignorance.
No they may not have DX11/12 For a fact Sony has multiple optimizations in the PS4 Pro:
Article for reference. Oh yeah, Mark Cerny is a pretty smart dude too!
Some of these optimizations are a combination of hardware and software.
Also some devs have or already implemented it:
And yes Sony even has teams that specialize in optimization:
ICE Team and SN Systems
Razer Profiler by Cort Stratton
Not trying to detract just trying to clarify statements without any value. Let's get back on topic and focus now. Take care.
E-Cat
Member
No, I'm understanding it perfectly well. Are you saying that by the time the next Xbox rolls out, some games will support both it and Scorpio (but not necessarily the OG Xbox One)? That would be my definition of "beyond generations", too. And it's still a terrible idea.
Clearly.I think we both have a different definition then of "beyond generations"
CassidyIzABeast
Member
They're not doing forward compatibility. The next Xbox after Scorpio will be apart of a new generation. Your old games will carry over but Microsoft isn't going to burden Turn 10 with having to make sure Forza 34 isn't going to be hamstrung by trying to make sure the game runs at 60fps on a OG XB1 in 2025.
True. Even if Xb2/PS5 are 'next gen' and you can't play Xb2 games on XB1 - that won't mean a quantum leap in game design.
1) the performance jump probably won't be that big - like you say, tech seems to be relatively slower than around previous generations. Plus these mid-gen refreshes naturally impact the perception of how much of a job no the next machine will be
2) business reality will require those shiny new Xb2 game to be released on the larger install base of XB1 etc. Just cross gen games last time around. And the x86 / similar architecture moving forwards makes that even more simple than before. So you'll have publishers wanting both Xb2 and XB1 games released, which may hold back the design freedom for at least the first few years of next gen - by which time you're hearing rumours about another refresh..and so it continues
soundscream
Member
Yes.
You cant play xb1 games on your 360. A 8 year life cycle for a console is great. And if you want a more beefy version every 4 years you have the option to upgrade, but if you dont want to you have another 4 years of games.
E-Cat
Member
But better backwards compatibility is just that, better backwards compatibility! It should have nothing to do with the concept of 'beyond generations', semantically. Aaaah !!
Spencer and Co. were thinking "how can we downplay a competitor that's already massively outperforming us and has their refresh model on shelves a year in advance? I know, let's call it half assed." That's really all the thought that needs to be applied to their comments.
As for everything else, I don't think you can reasonably call things half assed in retrospect. All those 1080p TVs that came out a year before 4K were not half assed.
Different products with different launch dates and different prices have different strategic goals behind them, and to call one names is just being small. The Pro delivered a serious performance boost over the PS4, and that's what it aimed to do.
Metalingus5150
Member
Not even close to Ryzen
we don't even have a date for scorpio :/
E-Cat
Member
But those games that have to support both Scorpio and the next-gen Xbox are going to be horribly compromised by the ancient Jaguar CPU and 12 GB of GDDR5 memory, thus making the concept of buying the new console obsolete in the first place!