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[Klocker]

I think your not understanding what they meant by beyond generations. Again look at iPhone software, there are apps that can run on multiple phones but cant on earlier models. Everything isnt going to be forward compatible, when it cant keep up its going to get dropped. If its refreshed every 4 years by the time year 8 comes along the first iteration will no longer be supported, so it wont hinder development of games.

Yep. I look forward to this new model , hell I'll take a three year refresh at $400/pop (relative) but 4 makes the most sense and will keep pushing the tech and games without leaving out people who are no more than 8 years removed from last hardware purchase in the loop.

Also like not having "new generation" where we have few next gen games and shit software until the devs have time or resources to leave the old gen behind to catch up. The people who are 8 years out can buy the 4 year old (last refresh) for cheap and stay in the ecosystem with a graphical bump and keep playing their games.

It's great imo

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

I see Scorpio ♏ getting back the 360 fanbase it lost to PS4, especially if those gamers have only played popular games like Call of Duty and Battlefield. My colleague is already packing his PS4 up all ready to trade in prep for this fall, for the best though because he didn't really take advantage of the niche games and Japanese titles. What remains to be seen is how the marketing deals for COD, Destiny 2, Battlefront 2 and RDR2 play out. MS may well get COD back.

A lot of the CoD casuals simply don't play games anymore. This partly explains the extreme drop in dedicated gaming hardware sales that's about to happen launch aligned from last gen and why Sony and MS have partially shortened the generations to three years with these "half step" hardware sales attempting to offset some of the drop.

Between the Blu Ray movie drive, free PS3 online, PS Move, Kinect, plastic shovelware, the Wii craze and the casual CoD explosion this generation will probably finish 150 million hardware sales down compared to last generation.

Netflix, YouTube, Twitch and the explosion of free to play games will also have a massive effect on dedicated console sales. People only have so many entertainment hours per week.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Out of interest.

With this being Polaris and Jaguar with heavy customisation. What does that say about the cost of producing each wafer? To me, sounds like MS have dodged a bullet (cost) by forgoing Ryzen and Vega altogether while achieving the same results. Right?

They saved a lot of money in CPU and GPU but:

- CPU is still the same overclocked
- GPU is very high-clocked for a console
- Because of high clocks cooling is way more complicated and costs way more

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

That's my point. He was looking for decidedly next-gen experiences with "better interactions with NPCs in an Elder Scrolls game" and "more impressive detail and enormity of a city in GTA" and, hence, came away disappointed due to his unrealistic expectations.

I cannot wait until PS5 launches, so that people stop touting this 'beyond generations' BS. At that point, it shall become abundantly clear that you can't "forward-compatible" a stopgap console without paying a terrible price, if that's the path that MS decides to take.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but don't PC's not have this problem? I mean, when a console releases a multiplat game, and then that same console reaches a new gen and drops compatibility of all existing titles, PC's can still play those older games even on newer GPU's... and they do it even better than consoles. This is because they make scaleability a priority on PC no? What I mean is that even though you have these gigantic generational leaps like you say, nothing is lost on PC. You can still play your library even if it has a multiplat game that was released during the last console gen.

I mean, MS has said that they plan on doing the exact same thing, or at least allowing for it, from here on out with all of their titles, just like the PC. So I don't see a problem with this.

I believe MS calls this Project Helix. Specifically Dev mode as seen here. Unless I'm taking this the wrong way.

 

[soundscream]

But those games that have to support both Scorpio and the next-gen Xbox are going to be horribly compromised by the ancient Jaguar CPUs and 12 GB of GDDR5 memory, thus making the concept of buying the new console obsolete in the first place!

You dont know that. People play games on low end PCs, with settings turned down. I dont think there will be that huge a jump in 4 years that scorpio buyers will be locked out from playing good looking games.

 

[fantomena]

♏

What is that? I don't think Ive ever seen that symbol.

 

[Matt]

You dont know that. People play games on low end PCs, with settings turned down. I dont think there will be that huge a jump in 4 years that scorpio buyers will be locked out from playing good looking games.

The problem is the CPU's in the next gen systems will be ridiculously better than the Jags.

I don't see this idea people have about forward compatibility working out, at least for now. It has way too many problems.

 

[jroc74]

Ok, you do know that Sony also put in a ton of custom optimizations into the Pro too, right?

Your post is completely incorrect.

What in sweet fuck are you talking about?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

Oh it's just folks that really are brand bias.

Anyone whose been keeping up with PS4 Pro news would have known this.

I guess Sony's work doesn't count.

 

[amstradcpc]

No, it would Not. Microsoft didnt Just upclock the cpu and put in some more RAM. No, they actually looked how to optimized the Hardware from a game Developers Point of view. Also, added some DX12 Hardware Features.

They would have done the same Last year. Sony did Not anything remotely like that.

what?.Didnt you read the updated DF article when the DX12 thing is debunked by MS?.

 

[amstradcpc]

The problem is the CPU's in the next gen systems will be ridiculously better than the Jags.

I don't see this idea people have about forward compatibility working out, at least for now. It has way too many problems.

Yes, slaving yourself to such a weak baseline would make next gen improvements futile.

 

[fantomena]

Oh it's just folks that really are brand bias.

Anyone whose been keeping up with PS4 Pro news would have known this.

I guess Sony's work doesn't count.

In Scorpio threads, who needs games when you got 4K and features?

 

[soundscream]

The problem is the CPU's in the next gen systems will be ridiculously better than the Jags.

I don't see this idea people have about forward compatibility working out, at least for now. It has way too many problems.

So your saying scorpio couldnt hang for 4 years? So are low end PC's also going to be cut out from this new generation of cpus?

 

[MarveI]

I have a question. Let's say Forza Horizon 4 is going to be an exclusive to Scorpio instead of Scorpio + XOne. Would it be a much better game ? Or would it look pretty much the same considering they'll build it with Scorpio at hand and then downgrade it to the X1 version ? My only fear is that this whole backwards compatibility thing MS has going forward will hold back the games quality on the latest consoles. In this case Scorpio.Please tell me I have nothing to worry about.

 

[Matt]

So your saying scorpio couldnt hang for 4 years? So are low end PC's also going to be cut out from this new generation of cpus?

I'm saying that forcing games meant for next gen to also run on Scorpio would be essentially handicapping the entire generation.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Spencer and Co. were thinking "how can we downplay a competitor that's already massively outperforming us and has their refresh model on shelves a year in advance? I know, let's call it half assed." That's really all the thought that needs to be applied to their comments.

As for everything else, I don't think you can reasonably call things half assed in retrospect. All those 1080p TVs that came out a year before 4K were not half assed.

Different products with different launch dates and different prices have different strategic goals behind them, and to call one names is just being small. The Pro delivered a serious performance boost over the PS4, and that's what it aimed to do.

You know what I mean. Your analogy doesn't make any sense either. I'm saying that if two companies are advertising something to you and promising near the same thing. Then you go to see those two things sitting on the store shelf or compare them online. If one of them looks half assed to you in comparison because it doesn't have features that the other one does then that is a legitimate reason to think so.

People have different standards on what they think companies are trying to sell them through marketing. If I reach the conclusion that thing a. is half assed in comparison to thing b. that is trying to do the same thing then it is to me.

My whole point was that whether it technically is or not isn't going to matter in the eyes of the consumer. All that matters is what they see that is there in the end results.

And yeah, undoubtedly some are using it just to downplay. But some aren't and that doesn't change any of what I said.

 

[Matt]

I have a question. Let's say Forza Horizon 4 is going to be an exclusive to Scorpio instead of Scorpio + XOne. Would it be a much better game ? Or would it look pretty much the same considering they'll build it with Scorpio at hand and then downgrade it to the X1 version ? My only fear is that this whole backwards compatibility thing MS has going forward will hold back the games quality on the latest consoles. In this case Scorpio.Please tell me I have nothing to worry about.

Because of the design of Scorpio I'd say that honestly you don't lose much having a game on it also run on XBO.

 

[Fat4all]

I play all my video games on an old 720p Samsung, no joke

Every time I consider upgrading I end up spending all my money on consoles, games or Christmas gifts instead

I need to buckle down and make sure to upgrade me tv this year

 

[amstradcpc]

So your saying scorpio couldnt hang for 4 years? So are low end PC's also going to be cut out from this new generation of cpus?

If you launch a game in PS5/XB3 taking advantage of a 8 cores Zen cpu at 3,8 GH and your game is 30fps the game would need such a downgrade to run in the Jaguars that would be in the end non-viable.

 

[soundscream]

I have a question. Let's say Forza Horizon 4 is going to be an exclusive to Scorpio instead of Scorpio + XOne. Would it be a much better game ? Or would it look pretty much the same considering they'll build it with Scorpio at hand and then downgrade it to the X1 version ? My only fear is that this whole backwards compatibility thing MS has going forward will hold back the games quality on the latest consoles. In this case Scorpio.Please tell me I have nothing to worry about.

If you follow what DF said about how they approached the scorpio, they said they focused on reducing bottlenecks on the existing xb1 engines. So any 1st party or 3rd party game is still using the existing xb1 engine, but they have more power they can add to the scorpio version.

 

[timlot]

Sony was conservative on clocks for heat and TDP. I am eager to see what temps Scorpio gets to when pushing a demanding game from a tech stand point, it is interesting.

maybe TSMC runs cooler than Global F. But you are being a bit unfair with cheaped out, MS are just pushing clocks and thermals here. Got to love MS for that, they do push the boat.

Credit where its due, Scorpio Bandwidth looks lovely.

My analysis is that it seems MS spent more time engineering the same cpu/gpu hardware as Sony and came out with drastically different results. The power draw will be interesting because Richard mentioned that Scorpio has a 245W power supply that "Del Castillo (MS general mgr of hardware design) reckons is the most efficient in Xbox history". PS4 Pro has a 310W power supply. That's 245W for faster cpu, faster/larger gpu, more ram, higher bandwidth, uhd bluray drive, etc. I just don't think it would have hurt Sony to keep the Pro in the kitchen for 6 more months if this kind of performance would have been the result.

 

[E-Cat]

You dont know that. People play games on low end PCs, with settings turned down. I dont think there will be that huge a jump in 4 years that scorpio buyers will be locked out from playing good looking games.

There will certainly be a huge jump on the CPU side with likely some Zen+ architecture being adopted, not to mention ~32 GB of HBM2 at around 1 TB/s. And it's not that the GPU architecture on Scorpio is not already a lot more modern, but it cannot be fully utilized in the current setup where all games have to be well-optimized for both it and Xbox One.

Making a game that both maxes out a next-gen Xbox yet runs on Scorpio on lower settings would yield something that looks worse on Scorpio than if it was made with just the Scorpio specs in mind. Maybe people will be happy with that? On the other hand, if they bought Scorpio in order to play games that look more cutting-edge, does it make a lot of sense for them to keep investing in watered-down experiences at that point?

 

[shandy706]

No idea how people can be disappointed.
MS came out saying they would be making a console with 8 cores, a 6TF GPU and memory bandwidth of 320GB/s and that's what they're gonna release
In the meantime we also had info from AMD that there was no semi-custom Zen planned for 2017 so Zen was out
People who couldn't keep their expectations in check only have themselves to blame

I don't know either. Some appear to be. Just covering all the bases. It's OK if they are legitimately. Hopefully it's not being feigned to trash up the thread.

More on the changes would be nice.☺

 

[JamesHolden]

I'm saying that forcing games meant for next gen to also run on Scorpio would be essentially handicapping the entire generation.

This would be distressing, if I could think of any novel features that PC exclusives have used to take advantage of the excess CPU power available on almost the entirety of PC's that people game on.

 

[soundscream]

Because of the design of Scorpio I'd say that honestly you don't lose much having a game on it also run on XBO.

But isnt scalability something thats been on pc like forever. Ive heard that the cpu gains have stalled in comparison to 10 years ago (dont know if thats true) but i find it hard to belive that the jump will be so great that there would be no scalable option for scorpio.

 

[Kaako]

I'm saying that forcing games meant for next gen to also run on Scorpio would be essentially handicapping the entire generation.

So basic common sense essentially since we want to keep the bottom line(architecture/HW) as high as possible for next gen consoles?

 

[Matt]

You know what I mean. Your analogy doesn't make any sense either. I'm saying that if two companies are advertising something to you and promising near the same thing. Then you go to see those two things sitting on the store shelf or compare them online. If one of them looks half assed to you in comparison because it doesn't have features that the other one does then that is a legitimate reason to think so.

People have different standards on what they think companies are trying to sell them through marketing. If I reach the conclusion that thing a. is half assed in comparison to thing b. that is trying to do the same thing then it is to me.

My whole point was that whether it technically is or not isn't going to matter in the eyes of the consumer. All that matters is what they see that is there in the end results.

And yeah, undoubtedly some are using it just to downplay. But some aren't and that doesn't change any of what I said.

I don't really buy your premise. Both Scorpio and Pro offer the same thing to consumers. They are video game machines that take advantage of 4K tvs, and they will both play second fiddle to their cheaper cusions for the rest of this generation. I think Scorpio will do somewhat better than Pro in the end, but they will still be the niche products in a larger market.

 

[MarveI]

Because of the design of Scorpio I'd say that honestly you don't lose much having a game on it also run on XBO.

Thank you Matt.

If you follow what DF said about how they approached the scorpio, they said they focused on reducing bottlenecks on the existing xb1 engines. So any 1st party or 3rd party game is still using the existing xb1 engine, but they have more power they can add to the scorpio version.

I've tried following DF but sadly I'm not smart enough to understand even a fraction of what I've followed. Thanks for the answer btw.

 

[Detective]

Can we keep the discussion OT please and talk about PS else where?
This thread has nothing to do with Sony.

 

[E-Cat]

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but don't PC's not have this problem? I mean, when a console releases a multiplat game, and then that same console reaches a new gen and drops compatibility of all existing titles, PC's can still play those older games even on newer GPU's... and they do it even better than consoles. This is because they make scaleability a priority on PC no? What I mean is that even though you have these gigantic generational leaps like you say, nothing is lost on PC. You can still play your library even if it has a multiplat game that was released during the last console gen.

I mean, MS has said that they plan on doing the exact same thing, or at least allowing for it, from here on out with all of their titles, just like the PC. So I don't see a problem with this.

I believe MS calls this Project Helix. Specifically Dev mode as seen here. Unless I'm taking this the wrong way.

You are referring to backwards compatibility, not forward compatibility. Forward compatibility would be where the old console can play titles that come out for the next-gen console, albeit with some compromises.

 

[amstradcpc]

My analysis is that it seems MS spent more time engineering the same cpu/gpu hardware as Sony and came out with drastically different results. The power draw will be interesting because Richard mentioned that Scorpio has a 245W power supply that "Del Castillo (MS general mgr of hardware design) reckons is the most efficient in Xbox history". PS4 Pro has a 310W power supply. That's 245W for faster cpu, faster/larger gpu, more ram, higher bandwidth, uhd bluray drive, etc. I just don't think it would have hurt Sony to keep the Pro in the kitchen for 6 more months if this kind of performance would have been the result.

The 310 watts is maximum watts supplied, not the effective consumption.Scorpio will have a greater wattage consumption, Pro is near 150 watts.

 

[Matt]

This would be distressing, if I could think of any novel features that PC exclusives have used to take advantage of the excess CPU power available on almost the entirety of PC's that people game on.

PC games are largely limited by the need to also run on consoles.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Yes, slaving yourself to such a weak baseline would make next gen improvements futile.

I actually do agree with this.

Though yes, multiplat PC games can be played regardless of console generations, the LCD cpu's absolutely do hold games back from a development standpoint when looking at the possibilities that new better tech can provide.

I think it would be wise for MS to have some sort of cutting off point where newer games didn't need to be supported/designed around during dev on hardware that was x old.

But I still think that back compat is the best thing they have going for them in regards to compatibility.

 

[Matt]

But isnt scalability something thats been on pc like forever. Ive heard that the cpu gains have stalled in comparison to 10 years ago (dont know if thats true) but i find it hard to belive that the jump will be so great that there would be no scalable option for scorpio.

It's because the Jags are so far behind. You can't buy a deaktop with equivalent CPUs.

 

[Matt]

So basic common sense essentially since we want to keep the bottom line(architecture/HW) as high as possible for next gen consoles?

Yep.

 

[Liabe Brave]

That was only when set to ultra with no lod models. The 66% gpu was with high models and lod models.

But space_nut was referring to the ultra version.

No 88% was the max load on gpu. Do I need to link you to the article?

And let's no forget this is with ultra settings 4k native. Biggest thing is DYNAMIC WEATHER not found at all in Forza 6. Scorpio ran it all with spare gpu

Sorry, I read on GAF that Digital Foundry said GPU utilization fluctuated between 88% and 100%, but I can't find the primary source. It appears I was wrong. But if 88% was the highest GPU utilization, that very likely means they're CPU bound. So that "spare GPU" would remain unused.

Everything isnt going to be forward compatible, when it cant keep up its going to get dropped. If its refreshed every 4 years by the time year 8 comes along the first iteration will no longer be supported, so it wont hinder development of games.

But the second iteration of Xbox One, Scorpio, will still hinder games due to its CPU (which is only ~30% stronger than standard Xbox One).

They're not doing forward compatibility. The next Xbox after Scorpio will be apart of a new generation.

This is exactly contradictory to what Phil Spencer said last E3.

we don't even have a date for scorpio :/

Mr. Leadbetter did say it would be Q4, and Microsoft last E3 said "holiday 2017". That doesn't leave a lot of range.

People play games on low end PCs, with settings turned down. I dont think there will be that huge a jump in 4 years that scorpio buyers will be locked out from playing good looking games.

Part of the reason people can play some current games on low-end PCs without difficulty is because PC hardware is massively more powerful than console hardware at the top end. So what counts as "low end" for PC is just barely below console performance. This is especially exacerbated for CPUs.

In 4 years if Sony have a true generational PS5, and Microsoft require all games to run on Scorpio's Jaguars, the performance gap is liable to be very large.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

You are referring to backwards compatibility, not forward compatibility. Forward compatibility would be where the old console can play titles that come out for the next-gen console, albeit with some compromises.

I meant it for both a little bit I think. After Jag anyway I don't think we are going to be looking at much larger jumps in cpu's in the consoles so close together. Just like it has been. So it wouldn't be that bad to have forward compat for an iteration or two where games where designed around them. Though I agree games would evolve more and faster without this limitation.

Anyway, I do think there should be some sort of forward compat cut off. I see this as being a good thing for the industry as a whole and I really think if gamers thought about it and the advantages they would agree. Perhaps do it like PC does where it doesn't bar you from running the game but you aren't going to have a good time if you aren't up to spec lol.

Just as long as back compat was always there I would be fine with that I think.

EDIT: I don't know why it didn't post your quote. It was there before I posted this.

 

[soundscream]

It's because the Jags are so far behind. You can't buy a deaktop with equivalent CPUs.

But shouldnt you not compare pc to console since consoles punch above their weight? Also the dx12 features being built into the hardware to make up for the cpu, is that not going to help eliviate its faults? I dont have a deep knowledge when it comes to cpu/gpu strengths and weaknesses but it seems some of you guys are being overly doom and gloom.

 

[E-Cat]

This would be distressing, if I could think of any novel features that PC exclusives have used to take advantage of the excess CPU power available on almost the entirety of PC's that people game on.

That's precisely because PC's don't have the luxury of being consoles, but have to lowest-common-denominator everything across two orders of magnitude. It's only when the next-gen consoles come out that the baseline is reset, including for PC.

 

[Scottish Sin]

Probably a dumb question but say the xbox console after Scorpio uses Zen, will that mean it will be a big pain in the ass to keep backwards compatibility? Could they keep doing it?

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

I don't really buy your premise. Both Scorpio and Pro offer the same thing to consumers. They are video game machines that take advantage of 4K tvs, and they will both play second fiddle to their cheaper cusions for the rest of this generation. I think Scorpio will do somewhat better than Pro in the end, but they will still be the niche products in a larger market.

Agree to disagree. Like I said in my first post to you, I see enough of a diff. At the very least, I see how others could see it that way.

 

[Matt]

But shouldnt you not compare pc to console since consoles punch above their weight? Also the dx12 features being built into the hardware to make up for the cpu, is that not going to help eliviate its faults? I dont have a deep knowledge when it comes to cpu/gpu strengths and weaknesses but it seems some of you guys are being overly doom and gloom.

No. The Jags, no matter what anyone tries to tell you, are weak and will be absolutely blown away by the CPUs in the next consoles. Any customizations or whatever is putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[BigPapi]

Probably a dumb question but say the xbox console after Scorpio uses Zen, will that mean it will be a big pain in the ass to keep backwards compatibility? Could they keep doing it?

They can keep doing it

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Can we keep the discussion OT please and talk about PS else where?
This thread has nothing to do with Sony.

You know this will not happen, best to reply to relevant post and ignore the folks from both sides bringing it up if it bothers you.

 

[timlot]

The 310 watts is maximum watts supplied, not the effective consumption.Scorpio will have a greater wattage consumption, Pro is near 150 watts.

I never said it was the wattage consumption. I stated a fact about what was the wattage of the power supply each system was using. Of course consumption will vary based on what the system is doing, but I highly doubt MS put in a power supply of 245W to consume 200+ watts. Especially since the whole reveal has been about how efficient the system is and MS has stated this is most power efficient xbox ever.

 

[Space_nut]

But space_nut was referring to the ultra version.


Sorry, I read on GAF that Digital Foundry said GPU utilization fluctuated between 88% and 100%, but I can't find the primary source. It appears I was wrong. But if 88% was the highest GPU utilization, that very likely means they're CPU bound. So that "spare GPU" would remain unused.

Before the ultra settings were used they were 40%-60% usage. In your case this "CPU bound" they wouldn't have been able to then go to pc ultra settings. This again on a 2 day port using no optimizations to take advantage of Scorpio

 

[Matt]

Agree to disagree. Like I said in my first post to you, I see enough of a diff. At the very least, I see how others could see it that way.

You might. For most people, there isn't. It's XBO and PS4, and while the PS4's power helped (and I think it will for Scorpio), it's not going be an amazing difference for the general populace of system buyers.

 

[amstradcpc]

I never said it was the wattage consumption. I stated a fact about what was the wattage of the power supply each system was using. Of course consumption will vary based on what the system is doing, but I highly doubt MS put in a power supply of 245W to consume 200+ watts. Especially since the whole reveal has been about how efficient the system is and MS has stated this is most power efficient xbox ever.

After how DF messed the DX12 thing I have my doubts 245 watts isnt the real consumption.Take a look at what is the RX480 consumption overclocked to reach 6tflops.

 

[Scottish Sin]

They can keep doing it

Cool, thanks.

 

[Wedzi]

What is that? I don't think Ive ever seen that symbol.

It's the symbol for the astrological sign Scorpio. It's a pretty good way to tell who's an Xbox fanboy on twitter as well lol

 

[JamesHolden]

PC games are largely limited by the need to also run on consoles.

Which is why I said PC exclusives.