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Divinity: Original Sin |OT| Sandbox RPG. Co-Op friendly. Bread.
- Thread starter Casimir
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Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
Wow, so I just realized you need to USE your bloodstones in order for areas in the shelter to unlock. I was wondering why the main plot wasn't moving forward...
Also, you don't need to keep inert stones.
Also, you don't need to keep inert stones.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I have a Bachelor of Science (Honours), and am extremely fluent in English (can't spell for shit sometimes though!). I have played BG2 as a child (but never got very far) and have played some low level D&D itself. I booted up Baldur's Gate 2: EE last week, having not played the game since I was ~13 (10 years ago). I am now 25 hours into the game, and charname is a level 11 sorcerer (almost 12). I'm not an idiot, I have put the time into the game, and I do have the patience to learn highly complex games (I love Paradox grand strat titles, for instance, which are often extremely obtuse and unnecessarily complicated themselves).
With all that said, I find the game to be obtuse and do not properly understand many of the mechanics involved. It is very possible to blunder your way out of the first dungeon and through the early parts of the game with little understanding of what is going on. I find myself constantly referring to online guides or googling particular enemy names to find ways to effectively deal with them. There is no "monster manual" in the game for me to consult, there is no book of mechanics for me to look up so I know what is immune to which spell, or what Hit Dice are (numerous spells refer to "hit dice" but no explanation for what that is can be found in the game), or how resistences work, or any such things. I still don't actually know how resistences work, I think a % resistence is just a chance to negate all effects when struck by things. That's how magic resistence *seems* to work at any rate. But there are PLENTY of things that are counterintuitive even with a grasp of the basics. Magic Missile creates projectiles which hit enemies. Enemies which are immune to seplls are not damaged by this. Melf's Minute Meteor's creates magical projectiles which you hurl at enemies. These DO damage creatures with spell immunities! What is a round and how is it different from a turn? Effects in game make mention of both but no adequate explanation was given for what the difference is, if any.
BG2 does seem to have some kind of level scaling but I have no idea how it works. But as for the bestiary, I appreciate that monsters are "consistent", but there seem to be alternate, tougher versions of monsters I encounter. But what consistency they do have is only really a benefit if I have already encountered them a few times to get a feel for them, or I have some kind of book of statistics to know what to expect. It basically guarantees that the first encounter with a tough enemy, or an enemy with some unusual characteristic results in a "load last save", possibly three or four times until I figure it out or get sick of it and look it up online. Vampire level drain, LOL.
Even just on a conceptual level the translation doesn't feel very good for a videogame. The AI for pathfinding is braindead and a constant source of frustration. The rest mechanic in particular is just downright bizarre. Am I really sleeping for 8 hours in the middle of a dungeon? Why does my health recover when I am interrupted during sleep, but not my spells? Why do I only sometimes get interrupted? It's just encouraging me to save before rest, then resting, and reloading if I do get interrupted. Actually save scumming is strongly encouraged in the game, because there is oftne no way of knowing a head of time whether the next room is filled with friendly or hostile people, whether a trap is around the next corner etc. I mean theoretically I could be casting my (highly limited) spells to scry ahead, or to slowly inch my theif forwards to check for traps, but this is extremely monotonous in both cases. What actually happens is I save constantly, blunder into rooms, then reload my most recent save if things go tits-up. The game actually tells you to save constantly, so I can only assume this was conscious design?
These problems are not preventing me from progressing in the game. Yet if I did not have any patience for this 90's era (it's 2001, but you know what I'm saying) jank I would absolutely have given up after two or three hours. I don't know how you could deny that it is janky, that it is obtuse, that it is complicated, that it lacks good explanations for many things inside of it. As children we put up with *a lot* of bullshit in games that would not fly today. It doesn't make us superior, and we should not wear it as a badge of honour. In particular you should not insult people for calling a spade a spade.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
Yes you skipped a section (I did the same thing since it wasn't explained very well where exactly you need to go.) Get rid of the barrier around the
White Witch's
Prototype Viktor
Member
got a staff of imagination, i got all excited when i saw the unique color til i realize it's just a weapon for flavor text
The resurrect spell requires level 16 so it wouldn't do you much good.
Thanks, maybe I will have to do some more save and loading to come out of fights with four people alive then. It is great that the game doesn't mess around with trash encounters like most do.
There is an geomancy spell that puts a magic shield on them and a pyro magic spell that gives a fire shield. These help a ton.
Also get your warrior the leech skill asap. They heal when standing in blood. Very effective more than you would think.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
So guys.
The editor.
Do I have time to make a super awesome game before San Diego in two days?
The editor.
Do I have time to make a super awesome game before San Diego in two days?
Suggestion:
You might try moving some screens (found in the nearby homes) so that they block the presenters sight line to the head.
Depends on how easily you can master its intricacies. There are links to the official editor guides in the OT if you wish to find out how demanding the learning curve it is.
Cast Haste and Oath of Desecration on them prior to their turn. Make sure they have the Leech talent (hopefully comeback kid and/or weather the storm if available). Use a healing spell as needed.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I am going to create the perfect RPG in two days.
No, in all seriousness, I'm totally going to try to recreate Comic-Con in the editor.
There are a lot of skills in the various melee skill trees that make movement/traversal easier. Learning those should be your priority. (One of the lowest level and most useful ones I can think of is Battering Ram)
I feel like you're just breaking the game for yourself. Figuring out on your own how to deal with encounters is a huge part of what makes the combat-focused IE games compelling. I guess you need a PhD to play them, independent research and all that.
Well, D:OS is an elite RPG.
Absolutely, as long as this works both ways. What one person may consider unbearably obtuse might well be a desirable lack of handholding for another.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Oh come on.
Yeah, usually when I'm reading GAF I append a [, to me] to the end of everyone else's sentences.
Do you have something to say?
Sentenza
Gold Member
Well, I don't even know what to say at this point, you seem to be overwhelmed by EVERYTHING.
But let's address few random points:
1- "magic immunity" as a whole doesn't exist in D&D as a concept. You may have creatures that are immune at a specific type of magic, immune to spells of a specific tier (i.e levels 1-to-3 spells) and so on.
Same goes for magic defense spells. There's not a "magic barrier that makes you totally immune to everything", you have spells of different tiers that protect you with different degrees of vulnerability.
In the example you mentioned, Melf's Minute Meteor doesn't do magic damage, it's an evocation that does physical damage. It's considered a projectile.
Once again, nothing of this is stuff you need to guess out of the blue. Spell descriptions are usually detailed enough to outline the subtleties, if you know what to look for.
Of course, as a beginner at first one could (and probably will) miss some of these details. But you know what? It's fine. You wouldn't need to know most of this stuff anyway, not at the beginning. You'll eventually catch up going on, when exotic creatures and stronger enemies that require a more advance strategy start to show up.
God forbid games being learning experiences rather than immediately obvious from the beginning.
Anyway, one thing I can agree with you is that the rest function was way too forgiving and easy to exploit. I never liked that, to the most of the times I forced myself to pretend it wasn't there.
Ironically, I doubt that correcting that mistake would make the same people who rant about the game being too overwhelming happier.
Well, here's the difference, you are "tolerating" the game, I'm missing it and I wish there were more following the same path.
Mostly because I never found it exceedingly complicate and surely never overwhelming.
When I think about BG2 progression and pacing "rewarding" is the word that comes to mind. In fact I consider it probably the single RPG with the most rewarding sense of progression and best itemization around.
I don't wear shit as a badge of honor. I don't like to talk about what BG2 did good because I think it gives me "game cred"; I do because I want more games with similar qualities.
And let me stress that I *WANT* them, I wouldn't "tolerate" them.
Hopefully Pillars of Eternity will fill the gap and not reveal itself as an underwhelming, pre-digested version designed to be "welcoming to newcomers" or something.
Oh, and I wasn't insulting anyone, anyway.
Not sure if that was just a generic figurative speech or you were specifically accusing me of something.
Agreed. You had actually convinced me to buy this game a week or so in this thread, and I absolutely love it. Trying out different strategies for tough fights and actually needed to read, talk, and investigate things to keep the story going is so much more fun than chasing questmarkers the entire game. I had to use a guide early in the game when I was still getting the hang of things, but I just entered the third town and have not used a guide at all aside from one quest that was actually bugged.
Maxwood
Oh rock of ages, do not crumble, love is breathing still. Oh lady moon shine down, a little people magic if you will.
I finally made some progress with the Counsilor Jake's Murder Questline and I (First and maybe second area spoilers
I guess I wasn't supposed to go there yet.
should be looking for Evelyn's (I'm terrible at remembering name's, so please excuse me if i'm wrong) secret hideout near some forest or something. Whatever, i'll first explore some more. Accidentially found my way into the second area after defeating a whole lot of "the fire...will cleanse...you" shouting skeletons.
Anyway, some guy approached me, asked for my assistance and a quest was added to my questlog. Somethingsomethingsomething evil source using people, obtain acces to the village somethingsomethingsomething it looks like they've kidnapped the White Witch.
....
Who the fuck is The White Witch?
Anyway, some guy approached me, asked for my assistance and a quest was added to my questlog. Somethingsomethingsomething evil source using people, obtain acces to the village somethingsomethingsomething it looks like they've kidnapped the White Witch.
....
Who the fuck is The White Witch?
Apparently the initial game lacked proper eyefinity/surround support but was added after a customer posted in their forums? Incredible. Most developers these days seem to dismiss it as a fringe thing not worth the time (assuming it doesn't support it out of the box).
Will definitely be supporting Larian more in the future.
Will definitely be supporting Larian more in the future.
Sentenza
Gold Member
Well, no, you weren't, but...I finally made some progress with the Counsilor Jake's Murder Questline and I (First and maybe second area spoilersI guess I wasn't supposed to go there yet.should be looking for Evelyn's (I'm terrible at remembering name's, so please excuse me if i'm wrong) secret hideout near some forest or something. Whatever, i'll first explore some more. Accidentially found my way into the second area after defeating a whole lot of "the fire...will cleanse...you" shouting skeletons.
Anyway, some guy approached me, asked for my assistance and a quest was added to my questlog. Somethingsomethingsomething evil source using people, obtain acces to the village somethingsomethingsomething it looks like they've kidnapped the White Witch.
....
Who the fuck is The White Witch?
that hardly changes anything, since you weren't supposed to know who she is even coming here at the right moment in the story.
Just that you are looking for her for some reason.
Just that you are looking for her for some reason.
Sithlord77
Banned
Does this game work with a controller?
Nah. You can play the whole game with just a mouse pretty easily though* if that impacts on your comfy couch PC gaming.
*a few key rebinds will be necessary, so this assumes you have access to a couple of extra mouse buttons, thumbs or mousewheel-sideways, etc.
hurricanepilot
Neo Member
One of the buttons round the mini-map toggles an overhead view. I've not used it myself (for reasons of not remembering until about 20 seconds ago that it existed), but I would imagine this would mitigate the occasional annoying mis-clicks during enemy animations.
So let me get this straight, you feel like having a tooltip explaining what terms like "THAC0" mean would turn the game into a "pre-digested version"?
Because I don't think anyone in here is questioning the quality of progression or itemization, nor arguing against the game being a "learning experience", in fact you're the only one so far to bring up these topics.
It seems to me this is all about asking for a bit more clarity on the basic mechanics so that the game doesn't just assume you're already familiar with the source material.
This game seriously has some of the best and most unpredictable AI I've ever seen in any game. Some of the stuff enemies do is just ridiculous. Had a battle where I killed an enemy. Than after dying the enemy drops a health potion. Another enemy walks up to that potion and picks it up off the ground during combat. Uses the potion on himself and than uses a healing scroll on another fellow enemy. Than that fellow enemy uses some haste/defense thing on another teammate and shoots oil barrel near me to slow me down.
Than the final enemy in that turn just lights half of my team on fire. I was just all like.....
And It took them only one turn to do all that. Went from being near dead to not only surviving for another 4-5 turns but also put half of my team close to death. They are so resilient. Seeing the AI be so aware of the environment and their teammates health just puts a smile on my face. sogood.gif
No. You can try and map the controls to a joystick if you have a program. I did it and played for about 15 min using a 360 controller. Its unbearable and completely kills the pace of the game. Like playing in slow motion. I wouldn't recommend it.
Than the final enemy in that turn just lights half of my team on fire. I was just all like.....
And It took them only one turn to do all that. Went from being near dead to not only surviving for another 4-5 turns but also put half of my team close to death. They are so resilient. Seeing the AI be so aware of the environment and their teammates health just puts a smile on my face. sogood.gif
No. You can try and map the controls to a joystick if you have a program. I did it and played for about 15 min using a 360 controller. Its unbearable and completely kills the pace of the game. Like playing in slow motion. I wouldn't recommend it.
Sentenza
Gold Member
Uh, no? We weren't even talking about Thac0 at all, now.
And by the way the game HAS an explanation for what the term THac0 means, that's where I learned about it.
What I feel, on the other hand, is that tuning down the intricacies of the magic system, of all the interactions between special abilities, passive skills, spells and what else would equal to vastly reduce the appeal of the experience.
What I feel is that having a tooltip outlining what a new creature is exactly capable of, what can hurt it and what not would ALSO reduce the experience.
I feel that learning to deal with special enemies through a mix of in-game hints (like the quest giver warning you that the terrible monster seems immune to common weapons and books describing creatures) and direct experience is GREAT, not a "barely tolerable pain in the ass".
If you're responding the to he "elite" comment, then I agree with Durante's premise (perhaps not the language chosen
).This is indeed an "elite" game, in that it requires a certain mindest to make the most of the various systems and mechanics. You're required to read large amounts of text (dialogue, notes, books, etc...), you're required to pay attention and explore in detail, you're required to correlate and deduce using the data you discover.
This isn't beyond the average gamer's capability imo IF they could break the habit and put the effort in. It's difficult to make the switch from GPS handholding, I found it a bit of a strain initially and I've literally just handed in my final exam peice for the university year so I should be in the mindest. Too used to not using my brain this way in gaming, and I think that's the issue with many people.
joshbob1985
Member
BG2 is a very hard game to learn and I would not try and get a friend into it without being there to talk them through the basics. You have to read the manual to stand a chance and even then you will struggle. Adding tool tips to all the stats like in D:OS would help a lot and would not be dumbing the game down. My heart goes out to the guy earlier who didn't even know what a round and turn are (6 secs and 1 min IIRC).
Understanding D:OS is a cakewalk by comparison.
Understanding D:OS is a cakewalk by comparison.
joshbob1985
Member
oops. sorry DP.
It was just an example of a core mechanic that's not exactly intuitive if you're not familiar with D&D. (notice I'm not saying it's a hard concept to grasp once someone explains it to you, just that it's difficult to infer its meaning without any kind of description)
You sure about that? I'm checking back on BG1 right now and I swear I can't find it anywhere. Maybe you read about it in the manual? (that I don't have since I own a crappy "greatest hits" version)
Yes that's perfectly undestandable, another matter completely.
In fact I'll stress that my reply only concerned the reported difficulties in approaching basic D&D mechanics without any prior knowledge as I feel the game could indeed do a better job in introducing you to them. (again, no idea about the manual)
So as far as this matter is concerned, I really believe that applying 10 years of advancements in UI design could very well make the game more welcoming without robbing it of its depth.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I'm glad you enjoyed that aspect of it, but after I've died four or five times horribly on some weird and difficult encounter that's usually when I start getting frustrated. Figuring out how to win really hard fights usually involves noting down which enemies are there and preparing for that specific encounter using knowledge that realistically your characters never could have had. Well, just as often it involves cheesing the enemies by laying traps and then preemptively striking them with something like web or skull trap to get an extremely unfair advantage, instead. Rarely do I feel like I've won a fair fight. I'm assuming you're going to tell me this is because I'm just too stupid on a basic level to grasp the details of the system properly, and that if I'm not enjoying being raped by a spiked dildo every time I turn a corner I just don't "get" the satisfaction of working this all out on my own.
Magic resistance exists, certain creatures have level-spell immunity as you say and certain mages cast spells silently or instantly and it's not clear what they have buffing them until your spells bounce off and they nuke your whole party with a giant death cloud. Overwhelmed by everything? Hardly. I'm just explaining that maybe the fact that you already know the ins and outs of the system and have played the game for years is warping your sense of how easy it is to pick up and learn, or how intuitive and complete the descriptions of mechanics are. You seem to be implying that since your personal experience of the game (or at least how you remember your initial experience with it)
didn't give you a feeling of being overwhelmed, that since you picked up the mechanics and so forth, that therefore it's basically fine and not lacking. This is total bollocks.
Maxwood
Oh rock of ages, do not crumble, love is breathing still. Oh lady moon shine down, a little people magic if you will.
That's a relief.
But while I don't really mind them, the game does have some problems regarding the questlog. Just now, for example; (North-West Cyseal & Murder plotline spoilers)
I started exploring the beach on the northwest of Cysseal and got into a fight. The questlog say's we got into a fight on our way to Evelyn's secret hideout as stated in her diary. The thing is, I never read her diary. I missed it.
I guess I should be gratefull, though. Wouldn't have found the diary otherwise.
You see this as a disadvantage. I find it a great strength in a game if you have to prepare unique strategies for each individual encounter.
You said that, not I.
This is completely true. But I think there's a huge difference between clearly conveying mechanics (which is always desirable) and keeping the player in the dark about specific applications or manifestations of those mechanics e.g. in encounters (which might also be desirable).
Been on holiday for the past week and just got back to playing the game. Went east to find some wolves that were two levels higher than me. I had a 40%-50% hit chance on all of them, but thanks to me focusing on healing spells on some of my characters, I still managed to beat them, although, most of my chars were on the brink of death. One of them did actually die, and I am now out of resurrection scrolls for the time being. Need to advance carefully for the time being.
LurkerPrime
Member
Passion interacts with opinion much the same way fire interacts with oil barrels.
On the right border of the combat UI are two buttons - flee from combat and ... uh.. some other one. You can always use flee from combat to save an ally from death, if necessary. And, in your case, it may be necessary.
Just keep it in mind.
There are interesting discussions about RPG mechanics and philosophy on this page.
And then there's your post.
The other one is delay turn. It's exceedingly useful actually, so I'm surprised you forgot about it.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Thread whining and meta commentary is against the rules. Your post has been reported.
LurkerPrime
Member
The way initiative has worked out for my party has meant that it's been less useful for me.
I blame Leadership... or rather, my leader's lack of initiative.
It used to be like that for us, then a main melee character got a new initiative item and now it makes much more sense to use it. (I find it almost always preferable to have tanks go after casters, either for buffing, or moving them, or to use AoE)
I'm getting my ass handed to me at lvl 5 on hard difficulty. Doesn't help that undead are completely immune to nearly all witch spell. Struggling to clear
at the moment, I might have switch to normal difficulty for a while. I'd probably have a much easier time if I had a fire mage in my party
the lighthouse