Hot Coldman
Banned
You people calling 4 the best... Midnight wasn't THAT good, guys. :/
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
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Exterminieren
Banned
Turn Left, The Unicorn and the Wasp, The Fires of Pompeii, Partners in Crime and Planet of the Ood were, though.
Hell, the Sontaran two-parter as well.
Also, the Beano are doing a Doctor Who special in honour of their appearance in The Rings of Akhaten.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Turn Left is amazing, Fires is decent enough, and the rest are garbage.
I've never wanted to stop watching the show more than I did in Series 4. It's the epitome of how lazy RTD got towards the end of his run.
Exterminieren
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I have never liked lazy as a criticism of TV in general, and particularly about RTD's Who. Check out The Writer's Tale some time; the guy worked himself into the ground.
But series 4 contained the best companion and some top-quality episodes. I don't see why I wouldn't consider it the best.
But series 4 contained the best companion and some top-quality episodes. I don't see why I wouldn't consider it the best.
APZonerunner
Member
Unicorn and the Wasp is great.
Hot Coldman
Banned
It really isn't!
You two confuse the ever-living fuck out of me. But if having wacky-arse opinions about Doctor Who is what drives you write articles like that NeoGAF one, then so be it
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I've read it and to me it compounded my pre-conceived notions of the flaws in his writing process. Not planning out scripts enough and thinking that set piece after set piece followed by a throwaway ending is good enough was always going to prevent him from writing truly compelling stories (with the exception of Gridlock that is. Midnight doesn't even really have a denouement so that doesn't count).
The man was a dilettante when it came to storytelling and nowhere is this more evident than in the writer's tale. He had to be convinced not to include a cyberman looming over the doctor at the end of journey's end followed by "WHAT? WHAT? WHAAAAAT?" for a third time, which just like the titanic bursting through the TARDIS, would have disappeared immediately at the beginning of the next doctor (and 10 regenerating at the end of the stolen earth, which again just disappeared). One of his only notes for "the waters of mars" was "it needs a robot, I love robots" (it really didn't). The way he marvels at how clever he is and what a fantastic writer he is whilst explaining "the voyage of the damned" is just risible.
He had his good points, but I think the accusations of him being lazy as a writer are not completely without merit.
APZonerunner
Member
I just really like it when Doctor Who has the balls to be different, be that Blink's twisted-into-knots storytelling, Love & Monsters' complete tonal mindfuck, The Girl Who Waited's focus-shift or Unicorn's weird comedy/farce undertones - I just love when the show gets mental like that. I wouldn't want it every week, mind, but I love those sorts of episodes. I don't really like Love & Monsters as an episode of Doctor Who, but in another sense I bloody love it. It's weird.
Hot Coldman
Banned
When I say lazy, I'm only referring to his writing, because obviously RTD was television's hardest working man when he was showrunner for those 5 years.
For what it's worth, I think if the show (with its variety and scope) didn't inspire wildly different opinions and such, it wouldn't be doing its job properly. But there we are.
No, I understand. I enjoy it when we get oddball episodes, and I really hate it when they don't work either.
For what it's worth, I think if the show (with its variety and scope) didn't inspire wildly different opinions and such, it wouldn't be doing its job properly. But there we are.
No, I understand. I enjoy it when we get oddball episodes, and I really hate it when they don't work either.
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This is the same Voyage of the Damned that he spends many chapters of the book agonising about how dull and boring it is, to the extent that he's getting outright self-destructive about it?
I dunno, I guess I'm just in the camp that thinks that anyone in RTD's position simply can't be lazy if they're actually getting the show made. It rankles when people call Moffat lazy, too.
APZonerunner
Member
Well, that's the difference - I felt Unicorn really worked. In concept it's really no different to Charles Dickens, at Christmas, and there's ghosts -- the tone is just different because the episode isn't afraid to take the piss. You get the little foreign maid screaming MURADH MURDAH and somebody is killed with lead piping - and then somebody actually says "Who kills somebody with lead piping?!" - I can get behind this.
You're largely right on a lot of that, but I wouldn't call it laziness. Towards the end RTD had become trapped by his own formula, in a sense - he felt that every series needed a 'hook' to make kids excited for next time and not sad it's over (Ten/Donna/Titanic) and couldn't see the wood for the trees that the episode would actually be better without it. The success of his own previous cliffhanger series ends nearly wrecked series 4's, you're right. The same is true all over. The 'lists' he would give writers for episodes could often work against the core of the episode. Helen Raynor was told pig men, and New York, and we got Evolution of the Daleks. If she'd just been given the Dalek plot and given free reign to built it wherever she wanted, that episode would likely be better. And sure, the pig men idea may have flourished under a better writer.
He's the type of writer that needs notes and needs reining in a bit, but I wouldn't say that's any different from Moffat, really; it just comes off in different ways and in different places. RTD screeches "Pig men! That'll be great!" and "I want a robot!" while Moffat is like a kid with ADD who dashes from one cool idea, toys with it, makes it important, and then drops it like a sack of shit when the next shiny, exciting idea is in sight (we'll see how much overall is resolved on Saturday, I guess.) Moffat's no different with the lists, either - after people criticising on twitter that the new Cybermen were too powerful, Gaiman came out and said that several of the new abilites (head/other limbs detaching and things) were given to him as notes by Moffat. The list of things needed to be in The Rebel Flesh in order for Good Man to work is likely what kneecapped those episodes, too, as Matthew Graham is a good writer.
I maintain, always and forever, that they're as bad (and as brilliant) as each other.
You're largely right on a lot of that, but I wouldn't call it laziness. Towards the end RTD had become trapped by his own formula, in a sense - he felt that every series needed a 'hook' to make kids excited for next time and not sad it's over (Ten/Donna/Titanic) and couldn't see the wood for the trees that the episode would actually be better without it. The success of his own previous cliffhanger series ends nearly wrecked series 4's, you're right. The same is true all over. The 'lists' he would give writers for episodes could often work against the core of the episode. Helen Raynor was told pig men, and New York, and we got Evolution of the Daleks. If she'd just been given the Dalek plot and given free reign to built it wherever she wanted, that episode would likely be better. And sure, the pig men idea may have flourished under a better writer.
He's the type of writer that needs notes and needs reining in a bit, but I wouldn't say that's any different from Moffat, really; it just comes off in different ways and in different places. RTD screeches "Pig men! That'll be great!" and "I want a robot!" while Moffat is like a kid with ADD who dashes from one cool idea, toys with it, makes it important, and then drops it like a sack of shit when the next shiny, exciting idea is in sight (we'll see how much overall is resolved on Saturday, I guess.) Moffat's no different with the lists, either - after people criticising on twitter that the new Cybermen were too powerful, Gaiman came out and said that several of the new abilites (head/other limbs detaching and things) were given to him as notes by Moffat. The list of things needed to be in The Rebel Flesh in order for Good Man to work is likely what kneecapped those episodes, too, as Matthew Graham is a good writer.
I maintain, always and forever, that they're as bad (and as brilliant) as each other.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Oh, I should say that Unicorn absolutely delivered on what it set out to do. I just didn't like what it set out to do at all, although I appreciate it for trying, I guess?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I think 5 is only great for its overarching plot and its companions, much as 4 was great if solely for Donna. Such a breath of relief to have a character who was actually interesting and not swooning over The Doctor.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm going to say it: I like the Unicorn and the Wasp more then Vincent and the Doctor? Why? Because Unicorn and the Wasp doesn't try to be unabashedly manipulative the way Vincent does. I've never really figured out how to put it before, but thinking about the two of them in contrast I think that's a huge part of it, Vincent is just so clearly trying desperately hard to pull on the heartstrings with its ending. Whereas Unicorn, while perhaps not great, is very very fun. Its incredibly stupid, but in a very knowing way and its an example of deliberate camp working quite well.
Dr Zhivago
Member
You could almost call it... lazy criticism.
What I miss from the RTD-era is the variety. You still had Moffat writing episodes, and also funny, silly & serious ones by various other writers. The Moffat era can be a bit flat in comparison.
21st century cowboy
Member
is there any word on a full series 7 blu ray set or are we going to have to buy the 2011 christmas episode, 7 part 1, the snowman and 7 part 2 as separate sets?
APZonerunner
Member
In the UK it's already announced, but here The Snowmen also is part of the Part 2 set, so it's a different arrangement. Sounds like they're starting to split the approach for the different markets.
21st century cowboy
Member
Really? I haven't seen that announcement. I can't see a pre order on amazon either. Upon checking I see that 7 part 2 does contain the snowman but part one definitely doesn't have the 2011 LWaW episode.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
GameplayWhore
Member
Now I've heard it all!
It's kind of interesting. I'm finding that as I go I'm internally rating episodes more along the memorable/forgettable spectrum than the good/bad spectrum. For the life of me, I can barely recall anything that happens in this episode. I think there was somebody (or some thing) walking into a lake at one point.
Maybe I should make a 2D graph with points for episodes representing my views on both these axes, kind of like how the libertarian folk on the web like pushing the 2D "Left/Right × Auth/Libt" graph view.
Or I should maybe start studying for tonight's final.
Man, I'm lucky that the finalé didn't leak. I'd have no study time at all were that the case!
User 100115
Banned
Now I've heard it all!
I enjoyed it too, simply because Donna is a joy to watch.
Exterminieren
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Now I've heard it all!
Well, you had to be told the truth some day.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Sure it was. As were Turn Left and Planet of the Ood. To say nothing of the incredibly strong Partners in Crime and Fires of Pompeii. Those stories alone are enough to put it above the rest of the new series. Not to mention the great development that Donna went through over the course of the season. Donna probably had the third best arc for any companion in terms of her development (even if she isn't one of my absolute favorites).
Hot Coldman
Banned
You and me, EleventhDoctor. We'll ride this wave of nonsense out, just you watch.
Turn Left was fucking awesome
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Changing the subject-can I just say how disappointed I am that we haven't had any more adventures with Canton? He was awesome!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, series 4 had a lot of great episodes and also basically no bad or forgettable episodes. Some excellent highs and no real lows. Even the finale was, at worst, just kinda alright
Brofist.
Seriously - this right here. Conversely, and many will probably not agree, I think that's why series 6 and 7 haven't sat well with me. I felt they've been quite...conventional in their attempts to be unconventional. It feels now like the slick, well oiled production it undoubtedly is. Sure its got quirks and plays in its roots, but now I feel its got to be exactly proportioned. 20% flirting, 20% drama 20% sillyness, 20% scares and 20% exposition / resolution through sci-fi and belief respectively.
I think in Series 1 - 4, and 5 to an extent, there was still an acceptance to go nuts and off the rails - when it wanted to go somewhere, it went there and it still had some rough round the edges charm. I just can't shake the feeling of apathy lately and its sad as I do think all the ingredients are kinda there. Its tedium. With 7b I've honestly felt all the episodes have been placeholders for the events of the impending finale. Whet your viewers appetite for things to come? Sure. Layer your arc and say 'wooo Clara's a mystery but we won't develop her or tell you anything till the end' - bad call IMO
Hot Coldman
Banned
Changing the subject-can I just say how disappointed I am that we haven't had any more adventures with Canton? He was awesome!
Yeah, I was expecting Canton to turn up again at some point. He should have been in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. Although I guess he's too much of a no-BS guy to really fly in that scenario.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Thats definitly how I feel about more recent attempts at quirky unconventionalness. The God Complex is an excellent example of this I feel. Part of why I like Series 7 again is, outside of Angels and maybe the christmas special it hasn't really tried to be all that "unconventional", and has instead found ways to be interesting within convention.
That's why he'd be so perfect there.
"So, you're telling me you've got a game hunter, Queen Nefertiti, and Amy and Rory to board an uninhabited space ship set on a collision course for Earth in the future?"
"Yes, Canton, exactly that."
"Well, alright then."
Changing the subject-can I just say how disappointed I am that we haven't had any more adventures with Canton? He was awesome!
What's on her cheek?
Hot Coldman
Banned
He'd probably buy it. The CIA having crazy shit like those black blocks they used to build the Doctor's prison hinted at a side to them I'd like to see more of- a more in-depth trip to Area 51 would be nice (and yes, I've seen Dreamland).
The obvious idea would be to bring back him and Jack in the same episode.
Both the character and Tate are quite abrasive - but I'm hoping after Coleman, who is lovely and all, they go for someone more Donna than Clara.
I think Amy and Clara do suffer from being similar back to back 'flirty, feisty with the Doctor young very attractive girls with mysteries behind them' companions. Tate and Tenant had a quite different, comfortable dynamic, which contrasted nicely with the ones he had with Martha and Rose - with Rose in particular, whilst being both flirty and carrying a finale resolved 'mystery', had a sense of vulnerability and wonder that Amy and Clara I feel would shrug off with a 'whatever' comment or somesuch
Hair. She had just finished running to that spot in that scene.
Exterminieren
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You poor, poor bastard.
Sad thing was that it was the second best thing in the gap year behind The Waters of Mars.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I count Torchwood to spare me the pain.
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EleventhDoctor
Banned
Well so far with the 5 or so Episodes Clara has been on-compared to 5 episodes with Donna-I think it's clear to say Donna is far and away the more fleshed-out and likable character. Donna had a clear dramatic arc in terms of her character's growth-and the audience (most of us) connected to that. It's why the end of Season 4 is just heartbreaking in regards to her.
Clara is gorgeous, but any attempt to make her a real character has failed really. The only thing I really know about her is that The Doctor has met her before and that she's a nanny. Other than that she's just "Companion X".
A real shame. Hopefully Season 8 can start to make her more well rounded. (And not just in the places where it matters. Wocka wocka wocka)
sssstententen
Member
Its terrible I thought I was so happy to be rid of Amy (not Rory though I'd watch a show about Rory all by itself) but with Clara being the blank slate she is, looking back it makes Pond look 100x more interesting.
Its hard for me to even comprehend.
Its hard for me to even comprehend.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Clara may not be very fleshed out, but she's far more of a consistent character than Amy ever was.
SirMossyBloke
Member
It's not weird. Donna was fucking terrible. Worst assistant by a LONG shot. Only people who seem to like her are here on GAF. None of my friends liked herat all.
Your friends are bad people...
A lot of my friends love Donna, myself included. Her story arc is great, as depressing as it is.
equippedwithtowel
Member
I think GAF gives a wider sample then your friends.
Donna was awesome.
She was great up until S7.
By then her arc had run its course so far it came back around on itself.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I love Donna. Shame about her run of episodes, like.
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