In a final ouroborous-like reference to the first NewWho filming block, he farts out regeneration energy?
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
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In a final ouroborous-like reference to the first NewWho filming block, he farts out regeneration energy?
Alternatively, Bad Beans caused him to regenerate.
Bad Beans: an alien alliance consisting of the Allied Apples, Yogurt Systems, Bacon Brotherhood, Bad Bad Beans, and Terror Toasts.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Not having the regeneration limit tied into an overall arc for a season (or even multiple seasons) would be a missed opportunity. The New Who background mythology is the most interesting thing for me so I'd like to see more of it (and not necessarily all powerful Time Lords).
StalkerUKCG
Banned
The world is not ready for Zachary Quinto as The Doctor. It's a shame.
His regen count got reset when he rebooted the universe.
Done.
BBC you can send me my check now.
I'm pretty sure they're not going to get rid of the regeneration limit since it's a intergral part of the show's mythos, much less throw it out with a single line from an episode.
I think the regeneration limit could make for an amazingly interesting story arc when the Doctor is on his last regeneration, as it would finally make him look at his life with a sense of impending dread, since as far as he knows, this could be his last "life". Maybe it'll even help make him understand humans better since he'll know what it feels like to have the idea of "true death" hovering over him.
Part of the Doctor's personality (No matter what incarnation) is that he's alienated to a degree from everyone since he has to accept that everyone he'll come to care about will die except him, so seeing him actually facing the prospect of dying permently himself could bring about a big change within him.... At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
I think the regeneration limit could make for an amazingly interesting story arc when the Doctor is on his last regeneration, as it would finally make him look at his life with a sense of impending dread, since as far as he knows, this could be his last "life". Maybe it'll even help make him understand humans better since he'll know what it feels like to have the idea of "true death" hovering over him.
Part of the Doctor's personality (No matter what incarnation) is that he's alienated to a degree from everyone since he has to accept that everyone he'll come to care about will die except him, so seeing him actually facing the prospect of dying permently himself could bring about a big change within him.... At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
Or it could be since the time lords are locked away in the time war the regeneration limit no longer applies to the Doctor since he's outside the time war.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I wonder if this is something they'll specifically deal with in the 50th special, or the following Christmas special.
I really do get the sense this is meant to get as close to clean-slating it as possible for Series 8. All the old baggage gets handled.
I really do get the sense this is meant to get as close to clean-slating it as possible for Series 8. All the old baggage gets handled.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
The 13 regen limit was imposed by the Time lords. They granted the master a new regen cycle for the time war and offered him one during The five doctors in exchange for his help.
The limit was likely in place to stop someone having an insanely profound effect on time (like the doctor has) and to limit current population of time lords at any given time.
In Sarah Jane the doctor says he can change 507 times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D-2HJMD9s
Throw away line or not it's something they could fall back on.
The 13 lives thing seems silly to me, Any explanation around it is just going to cause confusion for fans of NuWho only. Just ignore that aspect completely. Doc13 dies and have a throw away line like "It's a good job the Time Lord council isn't around" and move past it.
The limit was likely in place to stop someone having an insanely profound effect on time (like the doctor has) and to limit current population of time lords at any given time.
In Sarah Jane the doctor says he can change 507 times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D-2HJMD9s
Throw away line or not it's something they could fall back on.
The 13 lives thing seems silly to me, Any explanation around it is just going to cause confusion for fans of NuWho only. Just ignore that aspect completely. Doc13 dies and have a throw away line like "It's a good job the Time Lord council isn't around" and move past it.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Thank God you're not a television writer.
Hot Coldman
Banned
StalkerUKCG
Banned
The problem is if you completely ignore it Old Who fans are going to get all uppity and if you talk about it too much new series fans (or at least some) are going to be pretty confused.
Even if you ignore everything from the new series (like the Season 4 FAQ or Sarah Janes throwaway line) the old seasons cast doubt on the issue and/or gave multiple paths out.
The War Games says Time lords can live forever(whatever that means, it could mean a single life) and Its heavily implied that the Time lords imposed the limit of 13 regenerations.
New series does a good(ish) job at glossing over pertaining old series issues and I expect this to be exactly the same.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I have a tiny little feeling this is way smaller a problem than you guys think.
Yeah, it is not a big dilemma or an elephant in the room.
One possible way to face this imposed limitation of 13 lifes (or 12 regenerations) is if they introduce a character that does not necessarily have to be a Timelord, but is in contract with them about rogues who might use more than the limit - to hunt them down and bring them to justice. That would be a fun new way to give the 13th Doctor a new nemesis.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Isn't Moffatt really against the idea of The Doctor having a nemesis?
I did not know that. Well, considering what the Lady with the Eyepatch was for a whole season or the Great Intelligence in S7, that would be a weird stance to have
APZonerunner
Member
He's against other Time Lords specifically, I think. Thinks the Master is crap, etc. He believes that having other Time Lords over him weakens the Doctor as a character.
New Statesman has a wonderful article on the Moffat and Smith era, and its legacy. A snippet:
It's a really good - and I feel accurate - piece. I agree with it, but I've talked to death in this thread about Moffat's story-driven writing versus the RTD character-driven writing. Matt's going to be well-remembered, for sure.
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/06/matt-smith-rise-and-fall-hipster-doctor
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I just hope Moffatt brings him out with a bang. Tennant deserved considerably better than End of Time.
I do not get why they keep saying that. I consider the last 10-15 minutes of End of Time the best of the best. It starts with four knocks on a glass door.
The problem is the two episodes preceding it were not just some of the worst ever in Who, they were probably two of the worst episodes of anything I've ever watched.
I don't get how anyone can talk shit about Moffat. Season 7 may have been bland but at least it wasn't as horrifyingly atrocious as The End Of Time.
Discotheque
Banned
i hope matt smith's exit is stoic...but also with humor.
no "i don't want to go" lmao.
no "i don't want to go" lmao.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Hmm Wedding of River Song and End of Time are probably on par for me, for different reasons. Sorry.
Also, SMH at David Tennant being a 20/1 bet to replace Matt Smith.
Also, SMH at David Tennant being a 20/1 bet to replace Matt Smith.
APZonerunner
Member
The End of Time isn't a great story, but I don't really get the absolute fiery hatred it gets. When I think of that story, I think of the wonderful emotional weight Cribbins and Tennant carried. I think of the scene in the cafe where he sees Donna again and admits he went off the rails, almost breaking down - two old men, tired, and scared, together. The amazing scene with the same dynamics up on that tiny little space ship, with all its lights and power turned off. The way they play his realization it's the Time Lords with a plot is great, too. The scene when he realizes what Wilf is to him - god, bloody amazing.
While I'm not a massive fan of the Master's path through the story, I even love the scene where he and the Doctor face off in that junkyard; Tennant's realization that he's not just insane and there actually is genuinely something inside his head, followed by a twisted scream of "IT'S REAL!!!" (unfortunately followed by the Dragon Ball Z blasting off). The Gallifrey stuff is nothing particularly special, but Dalton thunders away brilliantly.
The ending goes a bit OTT and is overly self indulgent, but at the same time, I find it really hard to hate. I could live without the Mickey and Martha scene, it's boring, but I think the Sarah Jane scene is played beautifully, the Jack thing is fun, and the final goodbye between the Doctor and Wilf is, like all the rest of their scenes, amazing. That shot of the Doctor and the TARDIS across the cemetery, with all the gravestones in front of him is great. The Rose bit is literally perfection in terms of an ending.
With all that, I can really forgive and forget the awful Saxon revival stuff, the slightly hokey and forced timeline stuff with being unable to go back to before he was revived, the dumb 'silver cloak' plot thread with the gang of old people, the completely unnecessary missile sequence and the slightly crap resolution to the Gallifrey threat. Ultimately, the story isn't about any of those things, and they just exist to facilitate making the rich dialogue scenes happen. Plus, I still actually think the cliffhanger at the end of the episode is one of the best they've ever done. John Simm in drag!
Some people don't like the regeneration itself, I know, the I don't want to go. That's a different debate, I suppose. I think it was actually really brave. They'd done triumphant, and I think it's fitting for pig-headed, over-emotional Ten that he in the end went out alone and terrified.
I think the greatest fault of The End of Time is how much knowledge it assumes or requires - knowledge of Series 3, of Waters of Mars, of the ending of Planet of the Dead (an episode so boring I had to look up its name!) and also on top of that remembering details about where we left each of the companions, including a one-off from Series 3, Joan and Midshipman Frame from Voyage - but considering how continuity heavy 6 and 7 have been, The End of Time's level of expectation is basically the norm now.
The End of Time is perfect when two or three characters are just talking to each other, really. Whenever they do other stuff, it's not a very good story - but thankfully it is a story pretty dense in all that stuff, soaked in scenes like that to wring the maximum out of the regeneration or death threat.
While I'm not a massive fan of the Master's path through the story, I even love the scene where he and the Doctor face off in that junkyard; Tennant's realization that he's not just insane and there actually is genuinely something inside his head, followed by a twisted scream of "IT'S REAL!!!" (unfortunately followed by the Dragon Ball Z blasting off). The Gallifrey stuff is nothing particularly special, but Dalton thunders away brilliantly.
The ending goes a bit OTT and is overly self indulgent, but at the same time, I find it really hard to hate. I could live without the Mickey and Martha scene, it's boring, but I think the Sarah Jane scene is played beautifully, the Jack thing is fun, and the final goodbye between the Doctor and Wilf is, like all the rest of their scenes, amazing. That shot of the Doctor and the TARDIS across the cemetery, with all the gravestones in front of him is great. The Rose bit is literally perfection in terms of an ending.
With all that, I can really forgive and forget the awful Saxon revival stuff, the slightly hokey and forced timeline stuff with being unable to go back to before he was revived, the dumb 'silver cloak' plot thread with the gang of old people, the completely unnecessary missile sequence and the slightly crap resolution to the Gallifrey threat. Ultimately, the story isn't about any of those things, and they just exist to facilitate making the rich dialogue scenes happen. Plus, I still actually think the cliffhanger at the end of the episode is one of the best they've ever done. John Simm in drag!
Some people don't like the regeneration itself, I know, the I don't want to go. That's a different debate, I suppose. I think it was actually really brave. They'd done triumphant, and I think it's fitting for pig-headed, over-emotional Ten that he in the end went out alone and terrified.
I think the greatest fault of The End of Time is how much knowledge it assumes or requires - knowledge of Series 3, of Waters of Mars, of the ending of Planet of the Dead (an episode so boring I had to look up its name!) and also on top of that remembering details about where we left each of the companions, including a one-off from Series 3, Joan and Midshipman Frame from Voyage - but considering how continuity heavy 6 and 7 have been, The End of Time's level of expectation is basically the norm now.
The End of Time is perfect when two or three characters are just talking to each other, really. Whenever they do other stuff, it's not a very good story - but thankfully it is a story pretty dense in all that stuff, soaked in scenes like that to wring the maximum out of the regeneration or death threat.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
"Absolute fiery hatred" is a bit strong, just thought it was a little flat. It had it's good parts, "This is the day that Galifrey returned!" cliffhanger was great, but The Master antics were everything bad about Last of the Time Lords x about a million. The ending was good, but I didn't like the "I don't want to go" and "Ten's Farewell Tour"
The Elite
BOSS
I doubt they fall back on the 507 line when the time comes. I agree that the regen limit was something imposed by the Time Lords but the opportunity to tell a story based around it is too good.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Bring back Wilf, for god's sake. He's the most genuine character in the entire 49 year history of the show.
edit: noooooooooooooooo
edit: noooooooooooooooo
The Master Race was some CBBC level shit that rivals and possibly outdoes the Series 1 burping bins/farting aliens.
The Master randomly being a skeleton Sith who can jump with magic lightning powers was even worse. I seem to remember he spent most of the episode jumping around a quarry gurning.
But the cherry on the mountain of shit that was those episodes is of course that hilarious Master resurrection scene. Sadly I can't find a video but I remember something about "The Secret Books of Saxon" and a magic resurrection counteracting potion that made things explode. I remember it sounded like it was written by a 4 year old. And not a clever 4 year old either.
And that's not even mentioning the truly truly embarrassing slobbering of Obama's cock. I mean I think Obama is OK but wtf was all that about, really?
Wedding of River Song was a bit all over the place plot wise but at least it was fun. End of Time was just cringeworthy. It had two OK bits (Tennant and Cribbins in the cafe, and the end), but it was rotten at the core.
The Master randomly being a skeleton Sith who can jump with magic lightning powers was even worse. I seem to remember he spent most of the episode jumping around a quarry gurning.
But the cherry on the mountain of shit that was those episodes is of course that hilarious Master resurrection scene. Sadly I can't find a video but I remember something about "The Secret Books of Saxon" and a magic resurrection counteracting potion that made things explode. I remember it sounded like it was written by a 4 year old. And not a clever 4 year old either.
And that's not even mentioning the truly truly embarrassing slobbering of Obama's cock. I mean I think Obama is OK but wtf was all that about, really?
Wedding of River Song was a bit all over the place plot wise but at least it was fun. End of Time was just cringeworthy. It had two OK bits (Tennant and Cribbins in the cafe, and the end), but it was rotten at the core.
APZonerunner
Member
I thought the Master as everyone stuff was great. I have really fond memories of - Christmas day after all - my cousin, about 10 at the time, running around the house afterwards excitedly yelling that we were all going to turn into the Master. It left me grinning.
I hold my hands up to the sith bullshit and the resurrection, though, and the Obama stuff is... weird. I know what it's about; RTD is left-wing as all hell, and at the time that was written the right wing party was gaining popularity and was ready to sweep into power (and did 5 months later) - and I'm sure salivating over a man that was the darling of the left at the time was a reaction to knowing Britain was going to come under Tory control again, really.
Irreconcilable differences on this one, though, as I think The Wedding of River Song is convoluted wank. The Last of the Time Lords is actually a better finale than that, just with an utterly putrid ending. WORS is the opposite, shite all the way through with a relatively satisfying conclusion.
Great article.
Surely you're forgetting about The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords. I certainly try to, anyway.
It was, however, an absolutely glorious pun.
No, I still love the pace and the energy of it. And (sorry) I think the mechanics of how the Doctor is brought back are set up earlier. We hear about the ArcAngel network long before it's used. And I like the bit where the Doctor explains what's happening to the Master and how the Master reacts as he realises he's been outwitted and he's going to lose again. If Martha had actually been going around the world looking for different bits of a weapon to put together, that would actually be disappointing, and the first time I saw it I was thinking that was quite unimaginative - but it's a cover for a more interesting solution about the power of stories to inspire faith, which twists on a mechanic set up earlier. I don't get the massive hate!
And the Toclafane reveal is surprising and dark.
Here come the drums!
I regularly start randomly singing that song. Yep, glorious indeed : )
Exterminieren
Banned
Best Tennant finale, by a mile.
It only has 10 bad minutes, unlike the bad hour that is Journey's End.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Oh, get out of here. You're just trolling us at this point. How is Doomsday not the best Tennant finale? How?!
It had Daleks and Cybermen!
Anyway, you're underestimating how bad those 10 minutes are. They worm their way back through the narrative of the rest of the episode (and Sound of Drums and arguably the climax of Utopia) and just make everything immensely unsatisfying by way of being complete nonsense. And then they reset the whole thing so nothing of value actually occurred at all.
Exterminieren
Banned
It had Daleks shitting on Cybermen (admittedly with some neat dialogue), and the long, tedious Bad Wolf Bay bit. I'd stick on Last of the Time Lords before that any day.
I don't think I am. It was a resolution that was handled poorly, sure, but that's all it was. I actually think the Archangel Network was a rather neat solution to it all, and one that was neatly seeded throughout the series. It just needed a more compelling method of putting it up on screen.
I think that Moffat's conception of the Doctor as fairy tale and folklore owes rather more to Last of the Time Lords than many give it credit for, too.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The difference being Moffat's smart enough to set the tone to match that of a fairytale, whilst the S3 finale comes off as sci-fi until the reveal of Jesus Doctor.
Oh, and they don't hint that Jesus Doctor is a possibility at all! It's a complete ass-pull.
The Bad Wolf Bay goodbye is heartbreaking, you monster.
Oh, and they don't hint that Jesus Doctor is a possibility at all! It's a complete ass-pull.
The Bad Wolf Bay goodbye is heartbreaking, you monster.
APZonerunner
Member
I think all the fairytale & legend stuff (apart from the deeply personal fairytale of him being Amy's imaginary friend) has come across pretty crap, regardless of writer. I still cringe at the conclusion of Forest of the Dead for that ridiculous speech, even though the rest of it is top notch.
I can't believe people like you still exist. He's gone-get over it!
I read "The Writer's Tale" and found it really illuminating as to the narrative and storytelling decisions RTD made. He is very much against ever hinting towards things like that. He'd never ever have a line that would suggest the Network could be used as a solution to an impending problem. He would outline what it could do. Then much later suddenly have what he previously said it could do twisted to form the solution.
He illustrates this really well with the scene in "The Sound of Drums" where the Doctor rushes into the TARDIS and finds it's been turned into a "paradox engine". He says other writers would have a scene earlier on in the episode where the Master talks about building one, or an underling informs him that "the paradox engine is almost ready" or something, so the viewer knows one is about to appear and so when the Doctor finds his TARDIS has been turned into one, you're like 'ah this is the thing the Master previously referred to, now I'm seeing it.' While for Russell that would be bad writing - he wants the first time you ever hear of the concept of a paradox engine to be the moment when you're actually seeing one there in front of you doing something. He says something like 'I want everything that happens to be happening in the present.' I'm probably not explaining this very well and I know people find his plotting unconvincing, but for me it perfectly explains why his scripts have such an energy to their pacing.
APZonerunner
Member
Get ready for a lifetime of Matt Smith bellyaching!
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Tennant was shit. There... I said it.
They seem really inefficient at shooting the show.
This is pretty funny, intentionally avoiding setups and allusions to force a deus ex. It's like bizarro world writing.
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