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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life

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So I started to watch this show again with someone who hasn't watched it at all. About halfway through the first episode we watched, they just started bursting out with laughter because of how corny the show is. It made me realize that the only way to actually enjoy the show is you have to be able to look past it and really see what the show is about. I love the show but convincing others seems to be a bit of a hassle.
 
So I started to watch this show again with someone who hasn't watched it at all. About halfway through the first episode we watched, they just started bursting out with laughter because of how corny the show is. It made me realize that the only way to actually enjoy the show is you have to be able to look past it and really see what the show is about. I love the show but convincing others seems to be a bit of a hassle.

Curious, what episode was it? Doctor Who is indeed corny, but during a good episode it just adds to the charm. During a poor episode it just makes it kinda unbearable (at least if you have no background in the series)...

Luckily I got started on Doctor Who with good episodes.
 
WIth you also. I don't think I can call any episode during Matt's seasons bad.

Victory_of_the_Daleks.jpg


doctor-who-series-6-part-2-tv-trailer-7.jpg


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WIth you also. I don't think I can call any episode during Matt's seasons bad.

I think for me is the highs are way higher and the lows are way lower in the Tenannt era, whereas the Smith era has a lot more consistency but with it also happily sits around mediocrity often.

I don't think it's dipped below 'ok' ever in this era - there's no Fear Her, really. Every episode has redeeming features. Fear Her is the only Tennant era episode I'd actually call irredeemably bad. There's a lot to debate about Love & Monsters (it's like Banjo Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts - it isn't what a huge chunk of people want from Doctor Who, but it's a really interesting episode with some nice things to say) and a few other episodes, but the only bad one is Fear Her, imo.

If we stretch to include Series One for the whole of the RTD era, the other really shitty one is The Long Game. There's been nothing as bad as those two in Smith's era, but a lot more stuff wallowing around the middle of the table.
 

Jak140

Member
I don't think it's dipped below 'ok' ever in this era - there's no Fear Her, really. Every episode has redeeming features. Fear Her is the only Tennant era episode I'd actually call irredeemably bad. There's a lot to debate about Love & Monsters (it's like Banjo Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts - it isn't what a huge chunk of people want from Doctor Who, but it's a really interesting episode with some nice things to say) and a few other episodes, but the only bad one is Fear Her, imo.

If we stretch to include Series One for the whole of the RTD era, the other really shitty one is The Long Game. There's been nothing as bad as those two in Smith's era, but a lot more stuff wallowing around the middle of the table.

What about the daleks in manhattan episodes? The first was godawful, and turning it into a two parter was unforgivable. Aside from that I have to say the first episode of series one is among the worst; if I hadn't already bought the DVDs on word of mouth I doubt I'd have continued watching the series after trudging through it.
 

Petrichor

Member
I like your list. I didn't realize how damn hard it would be to come up with a favorite ten.

Midnight
Blink
Dalek
The Eleventh Hour
The Doctor's Wife
Human Nature/Family of Blood
The Waters of Mars
Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang

EDIT: I'm legitimately starting to think I may be one of a handful of people who liked a majority of Series 6 and 7.

For me it'd be something more like (no particular order):

The Girl in the Fireplace
Blink
Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead
The Eleventh Hour
The Time of Angels / Flesh & Stone
Amy's Choice
The Pandorica Opens / Day of the Moon
The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon
The Doctor's Wife
The God Complex
 
What about the daleks in manhattan episodes? The first was godawful, and turning it into a two parter was unforgivable. Aside from that I have to say the first episode of series one is among the worst; if I hadn't already bought the DVDs on word of mouth I doubt I'd have continued watching the series after trudging through it.

The thing about the those episodes for me is that what's bad is everything on the periphery; the core Dalek story is one of the most interesting ones ever told not just in new Who but in the whole history of the show. The whole thing with that group being allowed free thought and where it leads, that's really amazing.

It's sad that episode is then weighed down by a New York setting they didn't have the money to carry off, the bizarre inclusion of the pig mutants and some really god awful Manhattan-accenting by British/Welsh actors/extras.

But, yeah, give those episodes a pass because the story it tells about the Daleks is really fascinating. This scene is stuck in my mind as one of the best Dalek scenes ever:

Dalek Sec: We need your flesh. Bring him to me!
Dalek Thay: (gets in the way) Halt! This action contradicts the Dalek imperative.
Dalek Jast: Daleks are supreme! Humans are weak!
Dalek Sec: But there are millions of humans and only four of us. If we are supreme, why are we not victorious?
(Thay and Jast look at each other; neither can answer)
Dalek Sec: The Cult of Skaro was created by the Emperor for this very purpose - to imagine new ways of survival!
Dalek Thay: But we must remain pure!
Dalek Sec: No, Dalek Thay. Our "purity" has brought us to extinction! We must adapt to survive.

I love a lot of this stuff, and Nick Briggs gives his best Dalek performance ever in those episodes. I love that they have that scene underground where Thay and Jast huddle together (which looks amazing and bizarre, given the size and bulk of them) to question if Sec has lost it. "You have your doubts?" "Affirmative." What they eventually do to Sec for his way of thinking is really, to be honest, one of the most pure evil things they've done.

I really like it as a Dalek story for the same reason I like Asylum, because I think that a Dalek story where they're not just killing everything and there's some real drama going on (caveat: Without Davros) is really difficult to write. Parting of the Ways is better than most for this as well, as it has the whole 'Daleks gone religious' side in its plot, though it's never really finessed and is just really RTD, an atheist, putting the boot into religion in a big way. What's more scary than genocidal maniacs? RELIGIOUS genocidal maniacs.

It's much easier with the Cybermen, where there's a natural human element to them due to what they are. Evolution is more ambitious than Asylum, too, since Asylum's interesting drama comes from the human element of Amy and Rory and Clara and stuff. It's a great episode, but it's a shame the "insane Dalek" idea was never really explored; it's bigged up - the ones even the Daleks are scared of!! - and then they just end up being a bunch of normal Daleks, except dusty and slightly broken. Missed opportunity. It's just a shame about everything surrounding it. Lazlow, pig men, musical numbers. Ugh.

Anyway, the above is enough to propel it from "bad" to "ok, with things that make it a necessary watch" in my book. The Long Game and Fear Her are just shit.

Regarding 'Rose', the first episode, it was really just a product of the time and things. I challenge you to find a bad review of that episode from the actual time. It's aged poorly. All of Series 1 and a lot of Series 2 has, to be fair. The mainstream were gobbling it up like mad, the UK press was in a frenzy, it was something else. My thoughts about that episode at the time as somebody Who'd never seen Who before (but had read one of the novelizations of a third Doctor story as a kid) were "Huh, cheesy but cool", and I sort of knew through childhood osmosis what the Autons were even though I was born the year Who went off air, so I knew that was an old thing, not something new. I think Rose is a magnificent script and if you went and filmed it with the production value and budget of The Eleventh Hour it'd be an all-time great. I really believe that.
 
Curious, what episode was it? Doctor Who is indeed corny, but during a good episode it just adds to the charm. During a poor episode it just makes it kinda unbearable (at least if you have no background in the series)...

Luckily I got started on Doctor Who with good episodes.

Just watched the first episode to get the introductions out of the way. Probably gonna skip a few episodes in the first season. Probably just gonna stick with the recommended episodes in the OP.
 
The thing about the those episodes for me is that what's bad is everything on the periphery; the core Dalek story is one of the most interesting ones ever told not just in new Who but in the whole history of the show. The whole thing with that group being allowed free thought and where it leads, that's really amazing.

It's sad that episode is then weighed down by a New York setting they didn't have the money to carry off, the bizarre inclusion of the pig mutants and some really god awful Manhattan-accenting by British/Welsh actors/extras.

But, yeah, give those episodes a pass because the story it tells about the Daleks is really fascinating. This scene is stuck in my mind as one of the best Dalek scenes ever:

Yeah, I kind of liked the Daleks take Manhattan, but those horrid accents nearly ruined the entire thing for me. (Also the pig subplot made absolutely no sense...)
 

Goldrush

Member

I will admit that a lot of my love for the Moffat's years is style over substance. The "Doctor as a fairy tale" presentation makes me more forgiving of many flaws. Many of the episodes like Victory of the Daleks comes off to me as "whimsical," but would definitely be cringe-worthy cheese if it was made during the RTD era.
 

Locke_211

Member
I think episodes like "Cold War" and "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" are worse than most of RTD's episodes, as they were sort of ploddingly uninteresting, which no RTD episode was (for me).
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I will admit that a lot of my love for the Moffat's years is style over substance. The "Doctor as a fairy tale" presentation makes me more forgiving of many flaws. Many of the episodes like Victory of the Daleks comes off to me as "whimsical," but would definitely be cringe-worthy cheese if it was made during the RTD era.

Yeah, style over substance can actually work a fair amount of the time, even on me. Its just that occasionally the style becomes so overbearing (see: Wedding of River Song) that the lack of substance then becomes that much more glaring.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
By which he means Matt flailed around a little and then the cut was sent to CG for post-processing.
 
I will admit that a lot of my love for the Moffat's years is style over substance. The "Doctor as a fairy tale" presentation makes me more forgiving of many flaws. Many of the episodes like Victory of the Daleks comes off to me as "whimsical," but would definitely be cringe-worthy cheese if it was made during the RTD era.

Like Technomancer said, it certainly can be effective. The Doctor's Wife, The Impossible Astronaut and The Big Bang are standouts in that regard.

But we'll just have to agree to disagree. My unshakable top 5 Who episodes are Human Nature, Blink, The Impossible Planet, The Girl in the Fireplace, and Midnight.
 

Kuraudo

Banned
Like Technomancer said, it certainly can be effective. The Doctor's Wife, The Impossible Astronaut and The Big Bang are standouts in that regard.

But we'll just have to agree to disagree. My unshakable top 5 Who episodes are Human Nature, Blink, The Impossible Planet, The Girl in the Fireplace, and Midnight.

My man, you are graced with impeccable taste.
 
Just watched Journey to the Center of the Tardis.

I really wanted to like this episode. I really did. But why did they have to throw in the unnecessary monsters? Not only did they not make any sense, but they did nothing for the story. I would have loved for the episode to be slower paced, allowing it to spend more time explaining how the Tardis works and exploring it.

I've got to say I like Clara quite a bit better then Amy though. Not that Amy was a bad character...her personality just grated on me.
 
I'll be really interested to see if the "Doctor as a fairytale" thing begins to seep out of the show again with 12, as it does feel like an 11/Matt Smith trait, really. But I just wonder if that's the way Moffat wants to write the character in general...
 

maharg

idspispopd
I'll be really interested to see if the "Doctor as a fairytale" thing begins to seep out of the show again with 12, as it does feel like an 11/Matt Smith trait, really. But I just wonder if that's the way Moffat wants to write the character in general...

It's a thing that ran through pretty much all his pre-showrunner episodes too, so I think it's a Moffat thing more than a Matt Smith thing.
 
True enough. But at the same time, I think the tone there is different. It's not really the case in The Empty Child at all, I feel, and then Girl in the Fireplace is more about another Moffat theme, which is the Doctor as a romantic figure. Blink and Silence in the Library, though, yeah.

I just think it'll be interesting; Capaldi will be quite a different fairytale to Tennant or Smith, really, if they go down that path. He'll have to be.
 

maharg

idspispopd
True enough. But at the same time, I think the tone there is different. It's not really the case in The Empty Child at all, I feel, and then Girl in the Fireplace is more about another Moffat theme, which is the Doctor as a romantic figure. Blink and Silence in the Library, though, yeah.

I just think it'll be interesting; Capaldi will be quite a different fairytale to Tennant or Smith, really, if they go down that path. He'll have to be.

I'll give you Empty Child, but I'll remind you that The Doctor literally smashed through a mirror riding a clockwork horse in Girl in the Fireplace. If that's not a fairy tale kinda thing I dunno what is. I also think the tragic twinge and the "It's not just a secret, is it?" speech are very fairy taleish, and material that has lain at the core of everything Moffat has done with the character since.
 
It's a thing that ran through pretty much all his pre-showrunner episodes too, so I think it's a Moffat thing more than a Matt Smith thing.

I was reminded recently, reading an old DWM article from '99 that had Moffat, Davies, Gatiss and a few others in a roundtable discussing how they would pitch a new Who. Moffat was very explicit in stating that it's a children's show, and that continuity isn't that important. Rather telling in hindsight.
 
Prior to it coming back and becoming massively popular/hip/cool, Moffat always used to have a slightly derogatory bent towards the show, as if vaguely embarrassed by his association with it, but not really. I don't think the things he said back then are fair to level at him as much now really, as pretty much everything he thought back then was proved wrong by RTD and he's admitted as much. Where RTD always believed a revival would happen eventually, with him or not, after 96 Moffat truly believed it was dead.
 

Savitar

Member
Capaldi's past Who roles connected to the new Doctor...maybe

Steven Moffat has said that Peter Capaldi’s past appearances in the Whoniverse will not actually be ignored and hinted they may serve as a plot point.

Speaking in an interview with Nerd³, he said: “We are aware that Peter Capaldi’s played a big old part in Doctor Who and Torchwood before and we are not going to ignore the fact.

“I remember Russell [T Davies] told me that he had a big old plan as to why there were two Peter Capaldi’s in the Who universe: one in Pompeii and one in Torchwood. When I cast Peter and Russell got in touch to say how pleased he was, I said, ‘Okay, what was your theory and does it still work?” and he said, ‘Yes it does. Here it is…’

“We’ll play that one out over time. It’s actually quite neat.”

He adds: “The face is not set from birth. It’s not like he was always going to be one day Peter Capaldi. We know that’s the case because in The War Games he has a choice of faces. So we know it’s not set, so where does he get those faces from? They can’t just be randomly generated because they’ve got lines. They’ve aged. When he turns into Peter he’ll actually have lines on his face. So where did that face come from?”

Fifth Doctor to show?

Earlier in the week, Peter Davison opened up the possibility of the fifth Doctor making an appearance in the 50th anniversary special when he mentioned he owned a copy of the script.

Female First are now reporting that he will appear in the special. However before we get too excited Davison doesn’t specifically say it’s for The Day of the Doctor, only that he’s doing something for the 50th.

He said: “I’m making an appearance somewhere over that period of time but I can’t reveal in what.

“I can’t reveal anything specific about it. I’m not allowed to.

“It is a big year for the show and we’re all doing our bit for it. Trust me.”
 
It's funny, because in The Writer's Tale RTD says he cut the Capaldi Pompeii-to-London connection because it was "too much fanwank", so it's amusing Moffat is now gonna use it. I'd just ignore it! I look forward to hearing it...
 

bengraven

Member
I like the idea that Davies is still in touch with Moffat and they still talk shop and it may have an effect on this next season.
 
Just watched Journey to the Center of the Tardis.

I really wanted to like this episode. I really did. But why did they have to throw in the unnecessary monsters? Not only did they not make any sense, but they did nothing for the story. I would have loved for the episode to be slower paced, allowing it to spend more time explaining how the Tardis works and exploring it.

I've got to say I like Clara quite a bit better then Amy though. Not that Amy was a bad character...her personality just grated on me.

I really wanted to like this one too, but was super upset by how it was handeled, namely random monsters...
and an unnecessary retcon of the entire freaking episode at the end.
 
I think now there's a greater chance than ever as RTD is back on the UK TV scene in a big way and being the fan he is he'll want to write for the Twelfth Doctor. He was able to hide his desire to write for Eleven and not look like a hypocrite or - in his words - the "ghost at the feast" - by doing 11 for SJA, but now that's over he has no other option but to nut up and write for the show if he really wants to do it. Moffat has asked him every year.
 
I like the idea that Davies is still in touch with Moffat and they still talk shop and it may have an effect on this next season.

I have heard rumors that series 8 will be less fairytale, and more "grittier". Of course that could mean anything, but gritty is right down RTD's alley, and he's proved that he can write for Peter Capaldi and even the 11th Doctor, so he's pretty flexible.
 

gabbo

Member
I have heard rumors that series 8 will be less fairytale, and more "grittier". Of course that could mean anything, but gritty is right down RTD's alley, and he's proved that he can write for Peter Capaldi and even the 11th Doctor, so he's pretty flexible.

If they can make it work, that's a plus. Capaldi seems better suited (depending on how he approaches the Doctor), as Smith's 11 was too whimsical to go that route, in my opinion anyway.
 

Slowdive

Banned
I hope RTD comes back to write for Capaldi, I think at this point I'd be surprised if he didn't. Also
Alex Kingston has hinted that River will return. No thanks, at least not in Capaldi's first series. I thought The Name of The Doctor was good closure for her.
 

This sounds way too fanwanky. We don't need an 'explanation' for this anymore than we needed an explanation for the sixth Doctor looking like Maxil, or Amy looking like that guy's daughter, or Sara Kingdom looking like Lady Joanna or the Brigadier looking like Bret Vyon or Harry looking like what's his name from Carnival of Monsters.

I can't see any way that this gets done and doesn't just come across in an obnoxious way.
 
This sounds way too fanwanky. We don't need an 'explanation' for this anymore than we needed an explanation for the sixth Doctor looking like Maxil, or Amy looking like that guy's daughter, or Sara Kingdom looking like Lady Joanna or the Brigadier looking like Bret Vyon or Harry looking like what's his name from Carnival of Monsters.

I can't see any way that this gets done and doesn't just come across in an obnoxious way.

Agreed, I don't see a need for an explanation (beyond maybe certain people making a subconscious impression on a timelord that influences future regenerations maybe).

Maybe it'll be interesting though, I dunno.
 
Is there a Season 8 thread? Or a general purpose Doctor Who thread?

It seems weird to keep using this one for news on the 50th anniversary & the Christmas Special.

Although - are those considered Series 7?
 
The Christmas special is generally speaking attached to the next series on (The Christmas Invasion is part of series 2, The Runaway Bride is part of Series 3 etc) but with the current schedule of the show fuck knows how it's going to fall.

That's a burning question for me, really. By carefully waiting I've been able to get all episodes together until now; Series 1, 2, 3, 4, Specials, 5 and 6 all have 14 episodes each (13 for S1, 5 for the specials) regularly. Now the Series 7 set has two Christmas Specials for 15 episodes, but then how will the others be released?

Name of the Doctor is getting a solo release, but so does every Christmas special and so did all of the Tennant specials - so does that mean it'll show up along with the Christmas special on a later box set? Given that Series 8 won't launch until next Autumn/Fall and will star a different Doctor, I can't see them including Matt's last episode there... so it's messy!

I don't know if I should bite on Series 7 or wait until early 2014 to see if they put out everything from Christmas 2011 through to now in one set.

RE the thread - we probably do need to figure it out. The 50th thread is too spoiler-hot for general discussion now, but I figure once that's out - only a matter of weeks now - we can transfer to there fully for Christmas and then eight months of Series 8 rumour/set reports/speculation/etc since there'll be such a long wait.
 
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