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[Landr300]

I’m not an expert on the chip side of things. Not expecting much on that front other than better economies of scale (unless there is some technological breakthrough we don’t know about yet). RT and ML applications will be everywhere at that point and not just gaming and crypto. I do expect better RT and ML architectures though. And way more AI acceleration for RT and AI denoising.

well, the economic side of moore law is dead, the cost of the transistor per mm2 is increasing by node advance, thats the reason why microsoft launch the series s in the first place, so they cant put more transistors there, hence no more RT/ML hardware without increase in cost

 

[Johnny Concrete]

That's not true, ray casting is not the same as ray tracing, ray tracing is more involved. With the former you are calculating what the ray might hit (generally a hitbox) and when it does the calculation stops, and you can tie it to physics updates or frame updates making it even less taxing on the cpu.
With ray tracing you are tracing the ray until it hits something, and then when it comes to light colour, more rays are sent to the object to determine its colour, and then the ray will recursively cast itself from the object it hit, or "bounce"; this can make the hit detection interact more accurately when you move away from hitboxes and just use material information instead.

That’s cool and all, but no player ever will notice the difference between these systems and if the only thing it really does is increasing the hardware requirements then that’s a bullshit reason to me.

To add to that: a raycast hit doesn’t necessarily end with a boolean and position either, but I have no experience working with idTech, so maybe it’s just a new feature there.
Here’s what a RaycastHit can return in Unity: https://docs.unity3d.com/6000.0/Documentation/ScriptReference/RaycastHit.html

That’s a lot of info, including texture information and normals. What more do you need?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

That’s a lot of info, including texture information and normals. What more do you need?

It's not just the type of information, but also the precision of the information and id has deemed ray casting not precise enough to properly differentiate between individual pixels.

 

[viveks86]

well, the economic side of moore law is dead, the cost of the transistor per mm2 is increasing by node advance, thats the reason why microsoft launch the series s in the first place, so they cant put more transistors there, hence no more RT/ML hardware without increase in cost

You are saying consoles have already hit a ceiling and any more powerful consoles will just proportionally cost more. That is certainly how things look like for raw raster performance and traditional design. This will change with 3d stacking. Also rt and ml hardware architectures have a ways to go. See Cerny’s interview with DF and how they are approaching the next generation (around 14:10)



You will get multiple times improvements in rt and ml for the PS6. Raster, not so much. May be 1.5x or 2x of ps5 pro. The big jump for next gen will be in cpu, rt and ml, with a very modest jump in raster.

 

[Black_Stride]

Excert from interview with MACHINE games.
The MOTOR engine is probably derived from the latest idTech so i imagine the reasoning behind Doom also needing hardware raytracing is the same.

Im guessing idTech is now a fully GI based engine, in order for their games to still run at 60+ they need to use hardware acceleration.
I am curious to see when this game comes out if they will do a deep dive into the engine like they did with the last iteration of idTech.
Id love to hear their rational for going fully GI based.
It has to be for workflow reasons right?

 

[Johnny Concrete]

It's not just the type of information, but also the precision of the information and id has deemed ray casting not precise enough to properly differentiate between individual pixels.

Which again sounds like bullshit to me, since it doesn’t even concern pixels, just vectors in 3D space.

 

[Landr300]

You are saying consoles have already hit a ceiling and any more powerful consoles will just proportionally cost more. That is certainly how things look like for raw raster performance and traditional design. This will change with 3d stacking. Also rt and ml hardware architectures have a ways to go. See Cerny’s interview with DF and how they are approaching the next generation (around 14:10)



You will get multiple times improvements in rt and ml for the PS6. Raster, not so much. May be 1.5x or 2x of ps5 pro. The big jump for next gen will be in cpu, rt and ml, with a very modest jump in raster.

That won't change with 3d staking, and i think 3d staking is already happening

And if they want to launch a ps6 with better RT and ML they will have to reduce the size of raster part, there's no increase everything anymore unless they increase the price

I particularly do not believe in a ps6, or at least not a ps6 with exclusive games, they can call it ps6 but everything or almost everything will play on ps5

 

[GermanZepp]

Last night dreamed with a cacodemon wearing a mustache.

 

[SolidQ]

Indiana with software RT

 

[kevboard]

Indiana with software RT

that's cool and all, but a 12.6 TFLOP GPU reduced to 1080p medium and dropping to 40fps lows while basically nothing is happening, and in probably the least graphically taxing location in the game

not sure if this is worth considering even if you happen to have a powerful non-RT card.

I would love to see either the intro level or Sukhotai, where your whole screen can be filled with foliage.

 

[viveks86]

I particularly do not believe in a ps6, or at least not a ps6 with exclusive games, they can call it ps6 but everything or almost everything will play on ps5

We will know if that’s the case a lot sooner than 15 years. Let’s wait and see

 

[funking giblet]

Kinda reminds me back in the day, running glide wrappers to fake 3DFX in software to run Kingpin @ 5fps with shitty graphics.

I'm not a big fan of Raytracing when meshed with traditional rasterisation, but advancements in PathTracing are worth it, even if 5090s will struggle as long as it's an option, and will future proof the game. Like the old days!

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Which again sounds like bullshit to me, since it doesn’t even concern pixels, just vectors in 3D space.

Ok, but it's not bullshit and it does concern pixels, since whatever the ray hits informs the colour of the pixel. As I mentioned before, with ray tracing when the ray hits something, more rays will be sent to it to more accurately determine the colour of the pixel.

 

[rkofan87]

this is why some do not game on pc forced upgrade bs.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

this is why some do not game on pc forced upgrade bs.

This is why some do not game on Playstation forced upgrade bullshit i want to play on my PS2 still.

 

[kevboard]

this is why some do not game on pc forced upgrade bs.

I hope this is satire, but I fear it isn't

 

[simpatico]

Yeah yeah I finally did the deed and bought one. Used 6750xt. Decided to just flat out refuse all temporal scalers and become a curmudgeon.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

Yeah yeah I finally did the deed and bought one. Used 6750xt. Decided to just flat out refuse all temporal scalers and become a curmudgeon.

Should have just waited for the new AMD card, or, a used 4070 instead.

 

[Crayon]

Yeah yeah I finally did the deed and bought one. Used 6750xt. Decided to just flat out refuse all temporal scalers and become a curmudgeon.

Boom. It's done. Now you can play doom. And the good news is that you are shading a PS5 in performance so should get by for several years if you choose. Not so bad!

 

[Unknown Soldier]

People never understood that RT removed a lot of extra work that devs needed to do in order to make lighting look good with traditional raster techniques. Devs are more than happy to drop all that extra work. They'll start understanding once their games will no longer work without RT support

 

[simpatico]

Boom. It's done. Now you can play doom. And the good news is that you are shading a PS5 in performance so should get by for several years if you choose. Not so bad!

$200. My monitor is 1080p. Reckon I'll do fine. Not far from the sales tax on a 5080.

Should have just waited for the new AMD card, or, a used 4070 instead.

I considered a 4070 until I realized I couldn't even use the ray tracing without the temporal slop. Pure raster for raster, it's not even far ahead of a 6750. My investment was so little I can just dip back in if it sucks. I'm doing this out of stubbornness rather than poverty. I'm just grumpy enough to spite Nvidia rather than writing that check. Plus, very few uber modern games even interest me.

 

[darrylgorn]

*coughs* https://www.neogaf.com/threads/what...ries-gpu-and-if-you-have-one-sell-it.1579883/ *coughs*

I told you so. Granted, it look a lot longer than expected.

And only a few games that have a ray tracing requirement.

 

[Crayon]

$200. My monitor is 1080p. Reckon I'll do fine. Not far from the sales tax on a 5080.


I considered a 4070 until I realized I couldn't even use the ray tracing without the temporal slop. Pure raster for raster, it's not even far ahead of a 6750. My investment was so little I can just dip back in if it sucks. I'm doing this out of stubbornness rather than poverty. I'm just grumpy enough to spite Nvidia rather than writing that check. Plus, very few uber modern games even interest me.

Damn that was a pretty good deal.

 

[UniformDeliverance]

A seven year old gpu can handle raytracing. There does come a point where it’s reasonable to expect folks to have current gen hardware.

I want to remind you all, it takes time to develop standard baked in lighting, shadows, and reflections. It’s not like you can flip ray tracing on and off during development in a day, there’s considerable work that goes into this.

Focusing on raytracing, which fully removes the need to create reflection maps, lighting techniques and baked shadows is a net savings on dev time. This is optimization, means you get your games made faster.

 

[Alexios]

I mean, tools could improve to do all that stuff better, more automatically/organically integrated with the rest of the workflow of each department without relying on RT (hell, RT could be for editor views but everything compiling baked for release), that's not exactly a compelling reason... Anyway, I haven't upgraded CPU in 13 years & GPU in 9 and only now I'm seeing the clear cut off point with a handful of games (I'd play) requiring tech it doesn't support like AVX2 & ray tracing (or just raw performance as in DD2). That's fine but Nvidia pricing is not so I'll probably just go for a Steam Deck 2.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

its a turning point, if doom fails i dont think this trend will continue much longer, if it succeed maybe will go on a little longer

Lmao no this is the present, RTX is 7 years old.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Excert from interview with MACHINE games.
The MOTOR engine is probably derived from the latest idTech so i imagine the reasoning behind Doom also needing hardware raytracing is the same.

Im guessing idTech is now a fully GI based engine, in order for their games to still run at 60+ they need to use hardware acceleration.
I am curious to see when this game comes out if they will do a deep dive into the engine like they did with the last iteration of idTech.
Id love to hear their rational for going fully GI based.
It has to be for workflow reasons right?

Saving time for artists

4A games also said in the past that they would not return to raster lighting after they did enhanced edition because it makes the artist job much easier.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Don't care about RT in DOOM, haven't played Eternal with it and won't be this one (or turn all the shit down to low or off).

You can't turn off RT. It's designed from the ground up to use RT lighting. And RT lighting is better than raster. Win win.

 

[Johnny Concrete]

Ok, but it's not bullshit and it does concern pixels, since whatever the ray hits informs the colour of the pixel. As I mentioned before, with ray tracing when the ray hits something, more rays will be sent to it to more accurately determine the colour of the pixel.

You are talking about rendering an image.

I’m talking about the implementation of gameplay logic.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

I wonder if the console version also comes with RT as default while also 60fps. Indi, show us the way!

It very likely will this is ID. The PC version is also coming with path tracing so it's going to be insane. Much crazier than doom 2016 or eternal.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Yay I can play with my RTX4070. It does that required thing. Not very well, but it does it.

4070 runs RT games great what are you talking about. This game will run on Series S with RT, you bet the 4070 will do a much better job.

 

[Kataploom]

That’s cool and all, but no player ever will notice the difference between these systems and if the only thing it really does is increasing the hardware requirements then that’s a bullshit reason to me.

To add to that: a raycast hit doesn’t necessarily end with a boolean and position either, but I have no experience working with idTech, so maybe it’s just a new feature there.
Here’s what a RaycastHit can return in Unity: https://docs.unity3d.com/6000.0/Documentation/ScriptReference/RaycastHit.html

That’s a lot of info, including texture information and normals. What more do you need?

Well, for starter, it is a hardware accelerated solution, contrary to standard ray casting which uses the physics engine and fights for the same resources used by the other main logic in CPU.

I'm currently using ray casting for angle detections of hit polygon depending on players input and it works, but I don't think it would be equally performant, specially since you also give it a fixed length and they probably need the ray traced gradually so the shots calculate later damage depending on previously hit surface, which isn't impossible to design with ready casting but can see an extra work on design and optimization.

 

[Landr300]

Lmao no this is the present, RTX is 7 years old.

And? They are more expensive

 

[Schmendrick]

And? They are more expensive

I've seen more elaborate trolls....

 

[adamsapple]

Saving time for artists

4A games also said in the past that they would not return to raster lighting after they did enhanced edition because it makes the artist job much easier.

That it also looks good and accurate in comparison is the icing.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

It would be nice to be able to disable RT, considering that in most games it does little for image quality, but takes a huge performance hit.
It's very rare that RT justifies the performance degradation.

Not in pure RT games. You're talking about hybrid RT games where the GPU has to do all the regular screen space stuff plus RT. This is why Metro Exodus enhanced edition a pure RT game runs at 60fps on series S.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

You are talking about rendering an image.

I’m talking about the implementation of gameplay logic.

It's the same thing to the engine, all that information is retrieved even before anything is rendered.

 

[Landr300]

I've seen more elaborate trolls....

There's probably an argument there, i just don't found

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

7900xtx brick. damn you amd

Just buy a 9700XT that is slower in raster but faster in RT

 

[Johnny Concrete]

It's the same thing to the engine, all that information is retrieved even before anything is rendered.

I'm lost. You saying the information from all the rays that makes up the image is used to calculate weapon accuracy?

I still don't see how that can improve just a (single) ray cast or sphere cast for that matter.

But hey, that's probably on me. There's definitely way more technically knowledgeable people working at id Software than me.

 

[struggler_guts]

Hell yeah brother my 2060 super aint NEVAH leaving my case

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

And? They are more expensive

No they aren't all Nvidia GPUs have been RTX for a long time even the cheap ones.

 

[Come On Tars]

That it also looks good and accurate in comparison is the icing.

is center or right supposed to be the best

 

[Schmendrick]

is center or right supposed to be the best

Right

 

[Come On Tars]

Right

oh good cus i like it the best lol

 

[Kataploom]

I'm lost. You saying the information from all the rays that makes up the image is used to calculate weapon accuracy?

I still don't see how that can improve just a (single) ray cast or sphere cast for that matter.

But hey, that's probably on me. There's definitely way more technically knowledgeable people working at id Software than me.

Here I put an assumption of why they'd go for RT instead of RC... Also not sure if RC can catch per polygon or per pixel materials, it does per object tho.

Well, for starter, it is a hardware accelerated solution, contrary to standard ray casting which uses the physics engine and fights for the same resources used by the other main logic in CPU.

I'm currently using ray casting for angle detections of hit polygon depending on players input and it works, but I don't think it would be equally performant, specially since you also give it a fixed length and they probably need the ray traced gradually so the shots calculate later damage depending on previously hit surface, which isn't impossible to design with ready casting but can see an extra work on design and optimization.

 

[awwr999999]

GPU makers don’t make games.
Nonsense.

Studios have to make games that run on current HW and that means either Nvidia or AMD.
Nvidia and AMD's duopoly means 100% of console gamers are paying for RT despite the fact that few want to use it.

 

[PeteBull]

I somehow dont believe there is huge %age of pc players who dont have gpu like 2060/3060 by now and at the same time will buy new Doom at launch for those 60-70usd, they either got good enough rig to run it, with at least some basic rt capability gpu which isnt even 200usd by now or they simply dont buy new AAA games at launch(either buy them few years down the line at big discounts or pirate for free) so ofc company doesnt give a damn about those ppl either.
Thats 650 usd pc which is at or in some cases above min requirements, if some1 wanna play new doom and are rich enough to fork up 70usd they 4sure can afford 650usd pc too

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/bYTjJn

 

[Schmendrick]

Studios have to make games that run on current HW and that means either Nvidia or AMD.
Nvidia and AMD's duopoly means 100% of console gamers are paying for RT despite the fact that few want to use it.

Right it's totally not a hardware power issue. No one would ever want to play with Pathtracing enabled if feasible....

Jesus the agenda arguments are ridiculous sometimes.

 

[DirtyBast8rd]

I fucking love Ray Tracing. Games that don't have it may look good, but i do miss the realism provided bij Ray and path tracing when they don't have it.