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DOTA 2 BETA 2 |OT10| Reborn

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M

mastershake

Member
these fights

doto so boring now
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icefraud ruined doto
 
G

Gentle Rodriguez

Member
That fight was on the entire radiant offlane and took like an entire minute.
Haly said:
Secret picking Visage forces the Drow pick. Itll be interesting to see how far they can take this because its just really awkward. Your options are to draft Visage first, ban Visage, or give up Visage for Drow.

Or face the Drow Visage head on.
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It's really hard because most teams feel like they can't give up either Wisp or Chen.
 
M

Monochromaticx

Member
sixghost said:
That's where EG has picked her both games. They must think that Drow is the better of the pair when they are split.
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Yeah that makes sense, but is the drow visage combo THAT scary to be forced to deny pick? VG didnt seem to care and gave it to LGD.

That top lane fight was hilarious lol
 
M

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Don't understand the huge levels of hesitation on high ground.

They don't have the greatest initiation with SK or Invoker tornado, but they were just sitting there throughout most of T3s.
 
T

t0rment

Member
that fight was really nice, but useless, even if eg team wipe secret they'd still lose. late game fights just doesn't matter now.
 
B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
Brawndo Addict said:
How do people feel about first blood gold? Reducing or removing it would be one way to try to tinker with the early game to create a little more room for error. It seems like it's kept for tradition as opposed to any particular positive mechanics reason that would justify its inclusion.
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Still curious what people's thoughts are on this. That and whether a 6th ban might eventually be necessary as more heroes enter the pool.
 
H

Hung_real

Member
t0rment said:
that fight was really nice, but useless, even if eg team wipe secret they'd still lose. late game fights just doesn't matter now.
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EG had everything going for them at the fight bot but they fucked up

Rax gives a lot of money now so ofc that breakeven fight at top didn't matter
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I dont think first blood gold makes that much of a difference in the long run. There are so many fights from 0-10 now that you're going to need a lot more than a one time boost of 200 to do anything substantial. Games are won and lost in the esrly game based on how consistently one team can force and win fights, not in a slight gold advantage.

Basically, i think first blood gold matters even less now that it gets marginalized in the sea of early fighting.
 
B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
Monochromaticx said:
I think FB gold is fine. encourages some aggressiveness early on and helps the supports.
Not sure about 6 bans. 5 seem to be enough
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Dahbomb said:
I don't think first blood gold bonus matters as much.
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Does it really encourage aggressiveness that wouldn't already happen though, especially after the rune changes and the recent patch/meta? I feel like you wouldn't not go for a kill just because whoever gets the killing blow wouldn't get extra gold. I feel like it would be a wash because it also decreases the punishment if you make a risky play that ends up giving the other team first blood. And if it has little discernible impact, then why have it in the game at all? It seems like it more often creates negative effects with helping a core hero snowball than the less immediately beneficial scenario where a support gets the last hit.

I feel like it's the same reasoning behind why they changed the rune system in the first place. They wanted to reduce the spread and range of possible outcomes and keep things more predictable and reliable. A scenario where both mids go for the opposing runes, but one gets a haste and the other gets nothing. The hasted mid now has the rune itself, plus the bottle charges, while the other gets squat. With bounties, the other mid can expect to get some gold/xp and the bottle charges to keep it more even. Same reasoning for why the first rune spawn is now just two bounties. Sure most of the time it wouldn't matter, but the times where it did could really swing a game or create a huge early lead.

Likewise, a scenario where the first blood is two heroes dying almost instantaneously, why should the first kill get additional gold when they're already the only one getting experience for the kill? Isn't that enough reward for being lucky enough not to die first? Even if doesn't make a difference most of the time, it still has to justify the bad scenarios where it gets a core snowballed as a result. The game should reward kills in general, not just overly incentivize the first kill.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Monochromaticx said:
I think FB gold is fine. encourages some aggressiveness early on and helps the supports.
Not sure about 6 bans. 5 seem to be enough
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I think an interesting option is that FB gold starts at 0 if the FB happens at 0 on the clock or before. Every second of elapsed time adds 1 or 2 gold to the first blood pool. Serves the same purpose as the FB bonus as far as encouraging early aggression, but you don't have as much 'gave early FB at a rune/warding clash, so auto lose the lane because you are at a 200 gold disadvantage from the first creep wave' situation.

It could also be really interesting in games where its 5 or 6 minutes into the game and the FB is still unclaimed. After a certain point people are going to be going hard for that bounty.

The values and the interval of increase is a balance question, but I think there is potential for the general idea of the first blood bonus being an increasing pool rather than a flat 200 gold. The 0 second bounty runes and the first blood might stack in a way that can create some very lopsided early lane situations.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Regarding FB gold.

Its existence was always to promote some form of early aggression and snowballing, because DOTA was a game about farming for a long time. Its part of the system of checks and balances that keeps games from becoming too inactive and PvE focused. With the recent few patches (6.82 and 6.83 aside), the game has been about early aggression more than ever, so it makes sense that first blood isnt really necessary anymore and can be safely phased out.

However this wont always be true. Dota is a game thats constantly shifting and changing, sometimes on very overt and pbvious levels, and sometimes on very subtle ones. Thus, it is ill advised to remove a long lived, popular and well known mechanic like first blood in response to the current meta, because if that meta shifts (as it always does), first blood might become valuable again. Its one thing for a player to adjust to the oscillation of game length as metas phase in and out, but its quite another to remove a very prominent mechanic, even if it seems obsolete, only to bring it back at a later date.
 
B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
Haly said:
Regarding FB gold.

Its existence was always to promote some form of early aggression and snowballing, because DOTA was a game about farming for a long time. Its part of the system of checks and balances that keeps games from becoming too inactive and PvE focused. With the recent few patches (6.82 and 6.83 aside), the game has been about early aggression more than ever, so it makes sense that first blood isnt really necessary anymore and can be safely phased out.

However this wont always be true. Dota is a game thats constantly shifting and changing, sometimes on very overt and pbvious levels, and sometimes on very subtle ones. Thus, it is ill advised to remove a long lived, popular and well known mechanic like first blood in response to the current meta, because if that meta shifts (as it always does), first blood might become valuable again. Its one thing for a player to adjust to the oscillation of game length as metas phase in and out, but its quite another to remove a very prominent mechanic, even if it seems obsolete, only to bring it back at a later date.
Click to expand...

I think this rationale makes sense, but I don't know how important first blood actually is in this equation. Since it's always been in the game, we can't really say for sure that its absence would really change the early game that much or whether it was necessary in the first place (unless there's some ancient Dota 1 history I'm ignorant of). The fact that's its never been tinkered with as opposed to other changes coming and going leads me to believe that those other changes were primarily responsible for the early game shifting and not the existence of the first blood. At the very least I think most people would agree the rune changes were far more important to the game as a whole than whether the first kill gives bonus gold or not, so you would have thought first blood would be changed before the runes got messed with.

And I think the idea that it promotes early aggression to a significant degree seems a little questionable in certain respects. It's not early game blood it's first blood. After the first kill happens it provides no other incentives to fighting or early aggression; people are free to return to farming and they certainly did so in past patches without significant repercussions. If it's making too much of a difference now, then it's only because of the conjunction of other changes making the snowball effect truly meaningful, not first blood gold itself. And because first blood's impact on the game is pseudo-random like the old runes, you can't really balance it in the same way you can balance other system features to encourage certain results.

It would be far more stable and easier to balance if it was removed and you messed around with more predictable and measurable factors/variables.
 
S

Sianos

Member
visage gaming

i accidentally rebound my hero hotkey over my all units hotkey - i'm pretty sure most of the time i didn't use my birds for much more than tower push and the initial stun after i dropped them from my active units accidentally

imagine visage plus kotl
 
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